[OB] Kaladin and Adolin free Shallan discussions.

[Shig]

29 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

Shallan's situation was a lot simpler back then and her chapters were also intended to be more light-hearted (to balance out Dalinar and Kaladin's more serious chapters).

But even so: in one of their early meetings Jasnah was quite stern with Shallan and that set off Shallan's fear of confrontation to the extent that she needed some time to compose herself. More significantly was when Jasnah killed the robbers - Shallan was disturbed for several days because of that. And finally, she literally panicked and ran when she saw the Cryptics in her drawings repeatedly. She did genuinely fear for her sanity. It could also be said that she was distraught when her betrayal of Jasnah came out.

Most of the things Shallan was doing in tWoK were things she was already relatively used to: drawing and studying. Afterwards, she's mostly doing things she's completely unused to.

Yeah, I see your point there. I do think Jasnah being back will help Shallan, but I think it might be more of another issue on the stack having to deal with her "death", and not that Jasnah gave her stability. I think Jasnah, given more time, will help center her, as Shallan does obviously idolize her a bit (Brightness Radiant was based off of her, after all); but it does seem apparent that Shallan has always been a bit crazy from the start.

[FollowYourMuse she/her]

This new persona of Shallons, Brightness Radiant,  though Shallon puts a name to "her", and describes her as different,  I think we have seen this part of Shallon before. Two examples that come to mind are: Her  matter of fact actions in poisoning her father and dealing with Nan-Balats injuries. When she tells Vatha to bag up the bones, to dispose of latter. In the moment she has always had this ability to put aside her emotions and coldly or analytically deal with a situation. 

Shallon at age 11 (or earlier?) took on the responsibility of helping or saving her family,  As Jasnah's ward for the first time she is under the guidance and protection of someone else.  Jasnah had started to take care of her, in helping with her family setting up the causal. This is a big difference, and maybe a first for Shallon, So in some ways I think she may be more devastated and lost with the loss of Jasnah, than her parents.  

 

[Scriptorian he/him]

*reads thread title* Oh! Are we resurrecting the Shallarin ship then? 

Uh, no, wait! I mean...

...Hey, is that a demonic duck of some sort?! *flees*

Spoiler

 

 

[Shig]

So, holy crap, Shallan is a lot worse than I thought. She got a lot more lost in Veil than I expected, seems to he getting addicted to Stormlight, and completely ignored Patterns warnings. She doesn't even trust herself/memories anymore. I don't know what it will take to pull her back and force her to carefully examine herself.

[kari-no-sugata]

I'm increasingly convinced that what Shallan is doing with her personas is a typical ability of Lightweavers. However, she is possibly getting ahead of herself.

We also see more similarities with Soul Forging:

Quote

Veil had her own kind of power, that of a lifetime spent on the streets knowing she could take care of herself. She had the stubbornness of a chull, and while she was cocky, that confidence was a power of its own. She got what she wanted and wasn’t embarrassed by success.

Overall, I would guess that Soul Forging is more advanced and more powerful than what Shallan is doing... but also much more complex and harder to use.

Lightweaving creates complex virtual things. Soulcasting creates simple (?) physical things. If we consider that these things likely involve Identity and Connection then what Shallan's doing almost certainly has a magical component.

I'll also note that Pattern is not against Shallan doing this:

Quote

 

“Well?” Veil asked, turning to the wall, where Pattern hung.

“Mmm…” he said. “Good lie.”

“Thank you.”

“Not like the other.”

“Radiant?”

“You slip in and out of her,” Pattern said, “like the sun behind clouds.”

 

He's practically encouraging her. The obvious danger is going too deep:

Quote

“I just need to go deeper,” she whispered. “I can’t be Veil only on the surface.”

Pattern buzzed with a soft, anxious vibration—fast paced, high pitched. Veil hushed him as she reached All’s Alley. A strange name for a tavern, but she had seen stranger. It wasn’t an alley at all, but a big set of five tents sewn together, each a different color. It glowed dimly from within.

 

I think this is where Shallan's Truths come in. They make it impossible for her to forget certain things (unless she breaks her bond completely). Essentially, they are an anchor. A full Lightweaver who has maxed out their Truths can probably go very deep quite safely. Shallan's possibly in danger of going too deep given the number of Truths she has. Or putting it another way - it's probably good that Shallan is developing these skills but there are risks involved.

Brandon has compared Shallan to himself (though I don't think he meant in terms of personality really). And what does he do - create characters and get into their head.

btw, I have speculated before that Shallan's ultimate lie is that she is not and never was "Shallan Davar" - that in fact there were identical twins and she is the "other" one. Maybe there was the "good" one who was loved by mother and the "bad" one who wasn't but then the "good" one died in an accident and who we call Shallan did a swap, either out of guilt or opportunity or both. I've not seen any evidence at all of this so far but if there is any truth to this then it would probably come out when Shallan's brothers turn up (if they turn up).

[Guest]

41 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

I have speculated before that Shallan's ultimate lie is that she is not and never was "Shallan Davar" - that in fact there were identical twins and she is the "other" one. Maybe there was the "good" one who was loved by mother and the "bad" one who wasn't but then the "good" one died in an accident and who we call Shallan did a swap, either out of guilt or opportunity or both. I've not seen any evidence at all of this so far but if there is any truth to this then it would probably come out when Shallan's brothers turn up (if they turn up).

Deep. I like it.

[Calderis he/him]

@kari-no-sugata I'm pretty much right there with you. The way that the interactions between Pattern and Shallan went, I was thinking. "okay. This is just how Lightweavers work. I wonder if their mnemonic abilities facilitate the personality shift" 

And then we came to the "Veil is just a face" and Shallan's reaction, and her questioning if her brothers live... And I was like, "oh, your supposed to wear the personality like a mask Shallan, like an actor. You're not supposed to lose yourself in the lie..." 

In think of these faces as other people and separating them from herself, she taking what a lightweaver should be able to do, and twisting it to hide her emotions from herself, and not just others. 

 

[kari-no-sugata]

15 minutes ago, Calderis said:

@kari-no-sugata I'm pretty much right there with you. The way that the interactions between Pattern and Shallan went, I was thinking. "okay. This is just how Lightweavers work. I wonder if their mnemonic abilities facilitate the personality shift" 

And then we came to the "Veil is just a face" and Shallan's reaction, and her questioning if her brothers live... And I was like, "oh, your supposed to wear the personality like a mask Shallan, like an actor. You're not supposed to lose yourself in the lie..." 

In think of these faces as other people and separating them from herself, she taking what a lightweaver should be able to do, and twisting it to hide her emotions from herself, and not just others.

One interesting thought that occurred to me is as follows: Would Shallan be better able to diagnose "Shallan's problems" while as another persona? Since her other persona's don't have Shallan's painful memories, maybe she can objectively analyse herself from them? That would be rather interesting...

On a related note, I would now guess that Shallan's "coldness of clarity" mode is related to her ability to create personas. It's like a "null" persona with no history, no emotions and so on.

Edited October 3, 2017 by kari-no-sugata

[Nymeros]

I would love if Shallan failed as a Radiant and lost Pattern

[What's a Seawolf?]

12 hours ago, Nymeros said:

I would love if Shallan failed as a Radiant and lost Pattern

I'm not sure if you're joking or not, but on a larger scale, with all the Radiants that are inevitably going to be popping up, someone is going to fail.  It could make a very, very interesting story arc if it was someone whose head we've been inside.

Not saying I want it to happen, but it would open up a whole slew of possibilities and story arcs.  Yes Kaladin 'failed,' but he got Syl back.  What about a former Radiant who doesn't?  (Do they go dark and attract an Odium spren to make up the missing void?)

19 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

btw, I have speculated before that Shallan's ultimate lie is that she is not and never was "Shallan Davar" - that in fact there were identical twins and she is the "other" one. Maybe there was the "good" one who was loved by mother and the "bad" one who wasn't but then the "good" one died in an accident and who we call Shallan did a swap, either out of guilt or opportunity or both. I've not seen any evidence at all of this so far but if there is any truth to this then it would probably come out when Shallan's brothers turn up (if they turn up).

I like this thought.  I'm leaning towards Shallan having done...something to her brothers.  No idea what, or even if it was good or bad, but the idea popped into her head when Shallan freaked and asked Pattern if she killed her brothers.  To which Pattern replied, 'This isn't the lie.'

Now that could mean a bunch of things, but I think there's some truth/lie hidden with Shallan and her brothers.

[Calderis he/him]

So I made this thread, I should probably write some thing in it. Not promising anything deep, and most of it isn't going to be anything that hasn't been said before, by myself or others. 

I want Shallan's family to arrive, and I'm hoping that's going to be the cap to her part 1 story. We've seen that she fracturing further. She has been forced to start looking into the times before. Her mother's death is the partition in her memory between what she allows herself to remember, and what is off limits. Pattern forced her to face that, and now the wall is cracked, but instead of breaking it down the rest of the way she's turning her back on the wall, or painting over it when she's forced to look.

Her brothers are the only living link to who Shallan was before,other than pattern. She's proven quite adept at ignoring him, so I'm hoping that her brothers will force her to look backwards. She can't deal with the past and heal from her psychological wounds if she stays in hiding, and the damage is already done. She's trying to numb a wound that's causing her to bleed out. 

Lightweaving seems to be intended for what Shallan is doing. Patterns appraisal of the lies, not just as a visual trick, but the sound and the personality, and all of it, makes it seem like this is right. His fear of her not being able to distinguish the truth though, and his insistence that "Veil is just a mask" show how this is supposed to work. 

Shallan is losing herself. I think that subconsciously, she wants to. The line about hating herself... Combined with her need to "go deeper" makes it seem like she'd rather not be Shallan any longer. I don't think she wants to just be Veil, but I'm frightened for her in that she has started creating characters to act in certain roles. I feel like she's going to keep making them if she doesn't face her past, up until the point that she can just stay in other roles all the time. 

[Nymeros]

2 hours ago, What's a Seawolf? said:

I'm not sure if you're joking or not, but on a larger scale, with all the Radiants that are inevitably going to be popping up, someone is going to fail.  It could make a very, very interesting story arc if it was someone whose head we've been inside.

Not saying I want it to happen, but it would open up a whole slew of possibilities and story arcs.  Yes Kaladin 'failed,' but he got Syl back.  What about a former Radiant who doesn't?  (Do they go dark and attract an Odium spren to make up the missing void?)

Pretty serious....it would be interesting as hell IMO.

Why should I care about some minor nobody failing at their oaths? 

I dont think she needs magic for her character to work. Shallan could level up her spy skills in the front 5, break and lose Pattern, then show up in the back 5 as a head of information dor Urithiru or in a leadership role with the Ghostbloods. Who knows?

[Fulminato he/him]

19 hours ago, Calderis said:

@kari-no-sugata I'm pretty much right there with you. The way that the interactions between Pattern and Shallan went, I was thinking. "okay. This is just how Lightweavers work. I wonder if their mnemonic abilities facilitate the personality shift" 

And then we came to the "Veil is just a face" and Shallan's reaction, and her questioning if her brothers live... And I was like, "oh, your supposed to wear the personality like a mask Shallan, like an actor. You're not supposed to lose yourself in the lie..." 

In think of these faces as other people and separating them from herself, she taking what a lightweaver should be able to do, and twisting it to hide her emotions from herself, and not just others. 

 

(my opinion) if the lightweaving have truth and not oath mean all the order indulges on lies, and the illumination surge can make them very real. a thrut spoke cannot be forgotten, cannot be buried, this should be made to stop the KR to lose himself in his own lies. if the KR want progress need to handled both the truth and the lie.

Edited October 4, 2017 by Fulminato

[kari-no-sugata]

Maybe I'm too optimistic about Shallan but so far I don't see her as having gotten worse. The difference compared to WoR is that she can no longer (mostly) hide from her pain. She's being forced to deal with it. The pain that would once snuff out her entire mind is right there and cannot be ignored. It hurts. While her personas relieve her from the pain, she seems to be using them in moderation, which is fine. Overall, it seems to me that Shallan is facing her pain and facing her fears while before she tried to ignore them. I'd call that an improvement, though there are some problematic parts.

If we consider Shallan in the past...
 

Shallan 6 months after her mother's death:

Quote

Shallan’s mind went still. Like a candle suddenly snuffed, she stopped thinking.

Quote

Shallan caught mention of her name again. The maids apparently thought that because she didn’t speak, she didn’t hear either. At times, she wondered if she was invisible. Perhaps she wasn’t real. That would be nice. . . .

1 year after her mother's death, her mind still regularly goes blank but to her it's "just one of those things". She also sees delusions:

Quote

She lost track of time, staring at a blank sheet of paper. That happened to her sometimes. When she raised her eyes, the sky was darkening. Almost time for Father’s feast. He had those regularly now.

Quote

It was hidden behind a painting of a storm at sea that did nothing to dim the powerful white glow. Right through the canvas, she saw the outline of the strongbox blazing like a fire. She stumbled, pulling to a stop.

1.5 years ago:

Quote

Shallan became the perfect daughter. She kept quiet, particularly in Father’s presence. She spent most days in her room, sitting by the window, reading the same books over and over or sketching the same objects again and again. He had proven several times by this point that he would not touch her if she angered him.

Instead, he would beat others in her name.

The only times she allowed herself to drop the mask was when she was with her brothers, times when her father couldn’t hear. Her three brothers often cajoled her—with an edge of desperation—to tell them stories from her books. For their hearing only, she made jokes, poked fun at Father’s visitors, and invented extravagant tales by the hearth.

The last one hurts me the most to be honest. She has practically become a lie. Almost completely shut down all independent thought. Almost never takes off the mask.

With her current personas she can take them off easily. She's in control (or rather, she actually slips back to Shallan fairly easily). The worry I have about her personas is perhaps a bit different to most: Shallan tends to put things on a pedestal and she's doing that with her personas. Veil is not "just an older darkeyed version of Shallan" she's a hard and tough woman who's totally gung-ho. A real person who acted like Veil would definitely be crazy but to Shallan this is a kind of idealised person who has no "real" flaws. Brightness Radiant goes in the opposite direction - someone calm, logical and proper. I wouldn't be surprised if Shallan starts creating a more idealised version of Radiant as well. So I worry about her desire to perfect her personas, making them more extreme and less human. Also, the "better" she makes them the more she'll compare them to herself and consider herself lacking, I'd guess - she needs to take more pride in herself.

Well, there's all sorts of ways she could go too far. But I wouldn't say that's happened yet. I think some people are way too eager to label what she's doing as multiple personality disorder or the like.

Edited October 4, 2017 by kari-no-sugata

[Pattern he/him]

1 hour ago, kari-no-sugata said:

She's in control (or rather, she actually slips back to Shallan fairly easily).

The moment she asks Pattern whether her brothers lived or not shows that Shallan is losing control. She cannot distinguish and remember with certainty anymore what is real and what is a product of her illusions.
To create lies, Shallan needs to know what is the truth. If she loses that ability I fear she will lose herself. I love badass Veil, I don't really like Brightness Radiant. Both have their justifications, as long as Shallan knows that both personae are a product of her Lightweaving.

Cosmere magics are too much about perception to dismiss Shallans problems recognizing the truth. The moment she views Veil as real and Shallan as the illusion, bad and permanent things might happen. I fear for my favourite spren...

I don't really care that she develops Veil and perhaps Brightness Radiant to extremes. If she overdoes it, they will appear artificial and thus become less useful. Extremes might even help her to keep in mind that Veil and Radiant are products of her Lightweaving.

I agree though that Shallans present state of mind is much better than even 1.5 years ago. But she is losing her coping mechanism of forgetting on purpose. Now she has to learn to endure the pain - without losing herself to Veil, Brightness Radiant or Horneater lager.

Edited October 4, 2017 by Pattern

[kari-no-sugata]

40 minutes ago, Pattern said:

The moment she asks Pattern whether her brothers lived or not shows that Shallan is losing control. She cannot distinguish and remember with certainty anymore what is real and what is a product of her illusions.

I disagree - that means she fears losing control or going insane (not for the first time either). There is a huge difference between fearing something and that something actually happening.

 

40 minutes ago, Pattern said:

To create lies, Shallan needs to know what is the truth. If she loses that ability I fear she will lose herself. I love badass Veil, I don't really like Brightness Radiant. Both have their justifications, as long as Shallan knows that both personae are a product of her Lightweaving.

Cosmere magics are too much about perception to dismiss Shallans problems recognizing the truth. The moment she views Veil as real and Shallan as the illusion, bad and permanent things might happen. I fear for my favourite spren...

Shallan thinking she's Veil and Shallan is fake would certainly massively damage the bond, no doubt about that. Though such an arc would be rather boringly predictable I fear after Kaladin's arc in WoR, and Shallan has already done this herself in the past.

I certainly agree that Shallan needs to know the truth. I've posted this already - see my comment about the Truths being an "anchor" above.

 

40 minutes ago, Pattern said:

I don't really care that she develops Veil and perhaps Brightness Radiant to extremes. If she overdoes it, they will appear artificial and thus become less useful. Extremes might even help her to keep in mind, that Veil and Radiant are products of her Lightweaving.

I agree though that Shallans present state of mind is much better than even 1.5 years ago. But she is losing her coping mechanism of forgetting on purpose. Now she has to learn to endure the pain - without losing herself to Veil, Brightness Radiant or Horneater lager.

I think saying she "has to learn to endure the pain" is fine. I think there's too much emphasis on Shallan having to not do this or that. ie rather than "avoid the negative" she has to "find the positive" - eg, having more pride in herself like I suggested previously. Back in WoR Wit/Hoid said this:

Quote

 

“I see,” the messenger said softly. “You do not yet understand the nature of lies. I had that trouble myself, long ago. The Shards here are very strict. You will have to see the truth, child, before you can expand upon it. Just as a man should know the law before he breaks it.”

Shadows from her past shifted in the depths, surfacing just briefly toward the light. “Could you help?”

“No. Not now. You aren’t ready, for one, and I have work to be about. Another day. Keep cutting at those thorns, strong one, and make a path for the light. The things you fight aren’t completely natural.” He stood up, then bowed to her.

 

That probably applies just as well here. About truth and lines. About making a path for the light. And about the things she's fighting not being natural.

If she's confident enough and she likes being Shallan enough then she'll probably be okay. It's just as well that her personas also have limitations - if they were everything Shallan was (in terms of abilities) and more then that certainly would be dangerous. If the thing in Urithiru is an Unmade then she might need to reach the next level very quickly in order to fight it.

[Guest]

I do think, that you make great points and I can see many of them plausible or even true, but I want to address some points.

6 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

I disagree - that means she fears losing control or going insane (not for the first time either). There is a huge difference between fearing something and that something actually happening.

I agree, but you forget the fact, that she decides to go deeper anyway. To lose herself in Veil. And by stating that she "has to practice more with Radiant", I read that she intends to do the same with her.

6 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

she likes being Shallan enough then she'll probably be okay.

And herein lies the problem. She began to openly admitting to Pattern, that she hates herself. She doesn't like being herself. This is what needs to be addressed.

Edited October 5, 2017 by SLNC

[Pattern he/him]

6 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

I disagree - that means she fears losing control or going insane (not for the first time either). There is a huge difference between fearing something and that something actually happening.

I read this passage as if Shallan doesn't know whether her communication with her brothers was real or imaginary. I have to read this part again, but if it is so, then Shallan is a step after fearing to lose control.

Hoids advise from the past is still good, since Shallan has still to acknowledge at least one more truth, one which Pattern fears will make her hate him even more. I am not sure she is ready for this, just now.

[Calcium]

The idea of Shallan hating herself and Patternblade etc has certainly been a big focus. It could be possible that this is being used by Brandon to set Shallan up for a really dark path where she emerges as really twisted in the second 5 books. Alternatively I'd like to think her doubting things and questioning memories and even hating herself is a path to her teaching Lift. She was sort of feeling useless before becoming Jasnah's ward. So If she now feels a bit directionless it's be nice to see her have direction in teaching someone who questions things so much she calls her spren a voidbringer. Could also help her jolt back the the logic she used in tWoK and truly be a Radiant.

[kari-no-sugata]

8 hours ago, Pattern said:

I read this passage as if Shallan doesn't know whether her communication with her brothers was real or imaginary. I have to read this part again, but if it is so, then Shallan is a step after fearing to lose control.

Reading between the lines, I think it was quite clear in WoR that Shallan knew all this time (or at least for the last few years) that she had in fact killed her mother but wasn't really able to think about it (she would either avoid it or her mind would go blank). I think it's also clear that Shallan believed herself to be broken and that she didn't like herself. But, she had a bunch of comping mechanisms and she came across as being okay and maybe even normal. However, by speaking the Truth at the end of WoR the net effect of those coping mechanisms has been reduced - it's not that she has gotten "worse" but that her coping mechanisms have become weaker meaning that she is also being forced to confront her past, her pain and her fears more directly than before.

In other words, some sunlight is showing in and clearing out some of the fog but the brightness is painful to her eyes. (I hope that makes some kind of sense) If she can properly deal with that then she'll be in a fundamentally better place. If not, then who knows what will happen.

So I consider that exchange with Pattern to be her expressing a fear - that perhaps she is more messed up than she had previously thought. I would say this is a fear that she's not sure that she can trust her own memories, rather than her knowing she can't determine what she can trust and what she can't. She's effectively asking for reassurance that she's not THAT broken. I'm not sure if there's some particular reason why she fears this. I can't think of anything where she has in fact altered her memories rather than simply suppressed them. It's possible that her efforts with her personas are making her worry that maybe she can in fact genuinely trick herself into believing something that isn't true, or something along those lines.

 

8 hours ago, Pattern said:

Hoids advise from the past is still good, since Shallan has still to acknowledge at least one more truth, one which Pattern fears will make her hate him even more. I am not sure she is ready for this, just now.

Yeah, she's not ready right now. Her relationship with Pattern seems to be pretty much back to how it was in WoR - even better in some ways since she's discussing some things about herself with Pattern more openly.

One thing that concerns me is the state she'll be in when Adolin's little issue with Sadeas comes up. Shallan is very happy with her relationship with Adolin right now. Perhaps the worst case scenario is that she loses the emotional support she got from the relationship, becomes increasingly isolated and critical of herself etc and it pushes her over the edge. Perhaps the best case scenario is that she realises that she's not alone - that there's other people who were also faced with a situation where they had to do something even if it could be considered "illegal" or "wrong".

[kari-no-sugata]

Something that occurred to me recently...

Shallan's story is more painful than I had expected so far. With the other Radiant Orders we'd seen, speaking an Oath doesn't have an immediate cost but it does have an immediate benefit. In Shallan's case there is an immediate cost as well and this seems likely to be the case in general for the Lightweavers - Pattern suggests as much. Maybe it could be argued that with the other Orders the cost comes before the Oath but that doesn't really feel like it from the examples we've seen (Kaladin struggled in WoR but didn't otherwise and Lift didn't struggle much). So it feels to me that it's harder and more painful for Lightweavers to progress than the other Orders that we've seen so far. If that's the case then perhaps the success rate of proto-Lightweavers becoming full Lightweavers is lower than the other Orders. (I'm not going to suggest it's the lowest since we've only seen a few orders and from Brandon's hints the Dustbringers seem like another special case)

[Mulk he/him]

@kari-no-sugata

I don't think it's right to hold out Kaladin as a counter-example when you consider how close he came to choosing vengeance over protection.  Most people who go through what he did would do so.  Kaladin has to give up the right to enforce or seek justice on his own behalf and that includes the necessity to protect even those who have wronged him, regardless of whether they have tried to make it right.  Almost no one does that.  Even though we have a whole religion in our world in Christianity that has its leader command (not suggest) that his followers should love their enemies, almost no one does that. I think you're also discounting the number of times Kaladin thought of killing himself...how he was literally one step away from jumping at one point. With Syl's help, he comes back around and channels his energies into helping others not make that choice and into converting the worst most hellish place in the warcamps into a place of light and hope. The fact he succeeded doesn't make it easy.  And he as yet has a couple more steps to go.

Lift has to give up the right to forget the lowly and to not act in their defense.  If you know of someone who is of the forgotten and refuse to act or you try to forget them, you dishonor your Words and break your oath.  Everyone in the whole world does this.

Dalinar not only has to give up the right to be intentionally divisive, but the right to force others to agree with him AND the right to write others off from ever being in unity.  Good luck finding anyone who will do that willingly either.

As to Shallan herself - Shallan has to give up the right to lie to herself. Yes this hurts.  But her core problem is she lies to herself and causes herself harm by doing so.  Lightweavers therefore must be honest as to who and what they are to proceed.  Those who create illusions must not harbor any about themselves, put another way.  Probably because the creation of illusion provides an easy out to dealing with our self issues, so instead of dealing with them we cripple ourselves further.  This then is the temptation Shallan must face to move on, as Kaladin had to face the temptation to let his desire for justice and vengeance impede his right and responsibility to protect. 

I don't think it will be any easier or harder (if that can be measured) than it was for Kaladin, given all the wrongs, pain and hatred he had accumulated - he undoubtedly had advantages she did not have, but also hindrances as well.  She may yet trip and revert or cast off her words and truths. It's one reason I hope Jasnah returns to her quickly - she needs the input of someone with such a strong sense of self to help work through it.  And because she is one step beyond Kaladin (or at least, so it seems) it makes a certain sense she is struggling more than he is right now.

In the end, I think most of the Knights orders and problems align to whatever it is that broke them in the first place - meaning that each Knight will find it uniquely and personally difficult and challenging in a way no other ever would to move on.  Those who struggle with mental things as Shallan does (or have a particular compassion for those who do) will necessarily find that more difficult and more compelling. Those who have suffered great injustice particularly at the hands of the current system (or, again, those with compassion toward the ones who have), they will likely struggle as Kaladin does. 

We don't really know enough of Dalinar's backstory yet or Lift's to make true judgments on their ways forward though I have a couple of thoughts.  Dalinar I suspect has done a lot of his pain already in changing from the raging warrior he was to who he is now but remembering his wife might throw a wrench in that; and in any case he is now finding the frustration of trying to get others to unite without the force of war to make them do so. Lift...well, I hope we learn more about what drove her to seek the Nightwatcher at such a young age. I suspect that will inform a lot of who she is and how she is broken.

I work at an agency that primarily does foster care.  Most of those kids have huge issues.  They were, all of them, taken from their parents.  The vast majority of them for very good reason - mom and/or dad committed crimes against them and harmed them, even though they aren't always old enough to understand why or how.  I think of Shallan as one of them - mom tried to kill her, dad committed abuse in her name and there was no CPS to step in and stop it and give her and her brothers to a home more willing to give and show love.  If it is more difficult for her, it is likely because of this environment that she grew up in, not necessarily because of the nature of her progression.

[kari-no-sugata]

Thanks for the lengthy reply @Mulk

I don't think I explained my point very well. I'm not trying to make any arguments suggesting that certain characters haven't suffered significantly or about whether certain characters have suffered more or less than others or anything like that. I'm also not trying to suggest that swearing an Oath is cost-free or that the cost is small.

My main point is this: when a Lightweaver swears a new Truth and advances there is an immediate and guaranteed cost in terms of mental pain. Just to be clear, I don't think the truths that Shallan spoke about in tWoK countered towards her progression since she didn't say them to Pattern, so the effect is different. With the other Orders, there is a guaranteed cost (a requirement to do certain things) but the effects are not immediate - how much it affects them would depend on the Oath and the situations that they encounter.

Putting it another way: if you're a Lightweaver and you know that speaking your next Truth will bring you immediate and guaranteed pain, how willing would you be to do so? I'm not trying to suggest that the Oaths that other Orders swear are easy to deal with or that nobody would hesitate to swear them knowing the burden they would bring. Actually, long term, being a Lightweaver might be better if you can learn to deal with pain while for the other Orders the potential cost would be unchanging (though the actual cost would depend on the circumstances the individual encounters).

My point about Kaladin wasn't to downplay the pain he went through, but rather that for the Orders that swear Oaths there is no guaranteed cost/pain leading up to swearing an Oath either - ie that his example was something that could happen but rarely and would depend upon the individual rather than the Order. There might be in individual circumstances (eg with Kaladin) but I think the typical experience of progression would be closer to Lift's.

To summarise: I think all potential Radiants have gone through pain. To progress they will likely need to do a certain amount of soul-searching or struggle with certain issues and in some cases that could be very significant. Each time they progress there are certain costs and certain benefits. The difference for the Lightweavers is that the cost is immediate while for the others the cost is spread out and depends on the circumstances - for a Lightweaver on a deserted island the cost would be the same as if they were in a city but for other Orders the cost would probably be much smaller in such circumstances.

Pattern suggested that Shallan could kill him to get over the pain. I wonder if that is a common enough problem for Lightweavers that he expected that it could happen in advance? If so that would definitely help my theory that perhaps on average the Lightweavers struggle with advancement more than other Orders.

Hopefully as we get more info on other Orders and their typical Oaths we'll be able to get a clear idea of all this.

[Shig]

I do think Shallan might be more of a special case, She had bonded and spoken truths before her mother tried to murder her, so it may specifically be her circumstances that make it more difficult for her, not the Order itself. I'd like to imagine a Lightweaver speaking truths that they want to deny, but aren't tied to traumatic experiences ("I am a skilled liar, no matter how much I hate it", "I do not believe in the edicts of my homeland", or something like that). These people are still speaking personal truths, but in these cases, it would be acknowledging an internal struggle, not a trauma.

[Calderis he/him]

36 minutes ago, Shig said:

I do think Shallan might be more of a special case, She had bonded and spoken truths before her mother tried to murder her, so it may specifically be her circumstances that make it more difficult for her, not the Order itself. I'd like to imagine a Lightweaver speaking truths that they want to deny, but aren't tied to traumatic experiences ("I am a skilled liar, no matter how much I hate it", "I do not believe in the edicts of my homeland", or something like that). These people are still speaking personal truths, but in these cases, it would be acknowledging an internal struggle, not a trauma.

I agree with this. 

@kari-no-sugata I think that idea is far to colored by Shallan specifically. I don't believe that Lightweavers need to use truths that are exceptionally painful.

I think that Lightweavers are about self awareness, and being honest with yourself. The truth required need to be significant, and part of what has shaped them, which usually involves things that people struggle with, or fight against, but this doesn't guarantee pain like Shallan has. 

I believe Shallan is a very extreme case... And it makes for a good story.