Shig Posted October 6, 2017 Posted October 6, 2017 38 minutes ago, Calderis said: I think that Lightweavers are about self awareness, and being honest with yourself. The truth required need to be significant, and part of what has shaped them, which usually involves things that people struggle with, or fight against, but this doesn't guarantee pain like Shallan has. I believe Shallan is a very extreme case... And it makes for a good story. In fact, I think in most cases confronting the truth may come with a sense of relief. Accepting yourself for who you are, not who you are trying to be. Sure, you can continue to put on the mask, but the truth is acknowledgement that it IS a mask; but of course there is pain associated with finding out that you aren't who you want to be.
Alderant she/her Posted October 6, 2017 Posted October 6, 2017 Neat stuff! Before I get into my thoughts on Shallan, I just wanted to react to a few things. On 10/3/2017 at 2:52 PM, kari-no-sugata said: btw, I have speculated before that Shallan's ultimate lie is that she is not and never was "Shallan Davar" - that in fact there were identical twins and she is the "other" one. Maybe there was the "good" one who was loved by mother and the "bad" one who wasn't but then the "good" one died in an accident and who we call Shallan did a swap, either out of guilt or opportunity or both. I've not seen any evidence at all of this so far but if there is any truth to this then it would probably come out when Shallan's brothers turn up (if they turn up). This is too convoluted to make sense. There is no mention in any of the material thus far that there was another sister. In all of the flashbacks, everything, if there had been a twin, one of the brothers or the father would have at least referenced the child. There would have been mentions of this other child--for an entire family to just suddenly pretend there was no twin just doesn't make much sense, and honestly this would undermine Shallan's entire arc of becoming self-understanding and aware. If the dead twin were the bad one, why would Shallan take on the bad persona that did all the evil? If the dead twin were the good one, why would Shallan have all the trauma of the bad one? It just doesn't work. On 10/5/2017 at 10:45 AM, kari-no-sugata said: On 10/5/2017 at 1:48 AM, Pattern said: I read this passage as if Shallan doesn't know whether her communication with her brothers was real or imaginary. I have to read this part again, but if it is so, then Shallan is a step after fearing to lose control. Reading between the lines, I think it was quite clear in WoR that Shallan knew all this time (or at least for the last few years) that she had in fact killed her mother but wasn't really able to think about it (she would either avoid it or her mind would go blank). I think it's also clear that Shallan believed herself to be broken and that she didn't like herself. But, she had a bunch of comping mechanisms and she came across as being okay and maybe even normal. However, by speaking the Truth at the end of WoR the net effect of those coping mechanisms has been reduced - it's not that she has gotten "worse" but that her coping mechanisms have become weaker meaning that she is also being forced to confront her past, her pain and her fears more directly than before. In other words, some sunlight is showing in and clearing out some of the fog but the brightness is painful to her eyes. (I hope that makes some kind of sense) If she can properly deal with that then she'll be in a fundamentally better place. If not, then who knows what will happen. So I consider that exchange with Pattern to be her expressing a fear - that perhaps she is more messed up than she had previously thought. I would say this is a fear that she's not sure that she can trust her own memories, rather than her knowing she can't determine what she can trust and what she can't. She's effectively asking for reassurance that she's not THAT broken. I'm not sure if there's some particular reason why she fears this. I can't think of anything where she has in fact altered her memories rather than simply suppressed them. It's possible that her efforts with her personas are making her worry that maybe she can in fact genuinely trick herself into believing something that isn't true, or something along those lines. I'm working on a post that goes into more detail about who Shallan is and why she acts the way she does, and while I like your thoughts I believe her reaction here is for other reasons. Shallan does believe herself to be broken and she doesn't just dislike herself--she hates who she is. With Shallan, her personas and identities aren't her way of coping with the problem, their her way of wholesale avoiding them and are a desperate attempt to show others that she is not as broken as she truly is. She doesn't want others to see that side of her. That makes her unbearably vulnerable, and when someone who has as much trauma as she does feels as badly about herself as she does, they want to hide the pain. This isn't her dealing with it, this is her desperately avoiding it out of fear that either 1) she will be proven right about herself or 2) those she loves and cares about will abandon her. With speaking the Truth at the end of WoR, Shallan can no longer hide that part of herself from herself. This does not mean that she is seeing the light through the fog. I read this the opposite way, actually. These personas, these lies that she has built around herself are a fragile precipice over a chasm of despair and darkness. Until she can come to an understanding of who she is, these are what she clings to to avoid being the wretch that she fears when Pattern tells her "It's time" at the end of WoR. Her fear with her brothers and family is that she unknowingly lightweaved a fantasy where they loved her, and she's terrified that one of the solid points of her life (her brothers and their plan) is actually a precipice she created that will crumble under her as well, and she will be left with nothing. She has spent so long lying to herself that she is starting to lose her identity and ability to discern between what actually happened and what she fabricated. On 10/4/2017 at 10:58 AM, Calderis said: Shallan is losing herself. I think that subconsciously, she wants to. The line about hating herself... Combined with her need to "go deeper" makes it seem like she'd rather not be Shallan any longer. I don't think she wants to just be Veil, but I'm frightened for her in that she has started creating characters to act in certain roles. I feel like she's going to keep making them if she doesn't face her past, up until the point that she can just stay in other roles all the time. I think you hit it right on the head. She's trying to avoid being Shallan. Better, easier to become someone else than to deal with the pain. Quote No. Veil was a woman who didn’t giggle when she got drunk, or whine, fanning her mouth when the drink was too hard for her. She never acted like a silly teenager. Veil hadn’t been sheltered, practically locked away, until she went crazy and murdered her own family. Shallan stopped in place, suddenly frantic. “My brothers. Pattern, I didn’t kill them, right?” “What?” he said. “I talked to Balat over spanreed,” Shallan said, hand to her forehead. “But… I had Lightweaving then… even if I didn’t fully know it. I could have fabricated that. Every message from him. My own memories…” “Shallan,” Pattern said, sounding concerned. “No. They live. Your brothers live. Mraize said he rescued them. They are on their way here. This isn’t the lie.” His voice grew smaller. “Can’t you tell?” She adopted Veil again, her pain fading. “Yes. Of course I can tell.” She started forward again. “Shallan,” Pattern said. “This is… mmm… there is something wrong with these lies you place upon yourself. I don’t understand it.” It's really important to note that Shallan still has not demonstrated much effort to confront and deal with the pain. She can no longer lie to herself and pretend it didn't happen, so now she has to find other ways around the pain, so she becomes someone else. She becomes Radiant to avoid dealing with the pain of her Patternblade. She becomes Veil because Veil "hadn't been sheltered, practically locked away, until she went crazy and murdered her own family." Veil didn't experience what Shallan did, so Veil doesn't have to hurt. This is not "coping" or "dealing" with pain--this is flat out avoidance behavior. Now for my thoughts: I've mentioned elsewhere that I see this revelation with Adolin being very bad for Shallan, and I've gotten some pretty scathing replies from the Adolin fanclub, so I'm going to try to summarize my thoughts on the matter and save all the gritty work for the aforementioned post I'm working on. Regarding Adolin--Shallan does not love Adolin yet. She likes him, she thinks he's very attractive, and she certainly believes she can come to love him. Adolin is cute, charming, and even if he's a bit of a soldier and her witticisms go over his head, and he maybe he's not got the mind of a scholar, but he is genuine and obvious and normal and she is happy with him, and a relationship means that she can have a normal life. He's not broken, he's not haunted by his past, he's not weak and terrified like she is. He's strong and solid. Her entire image of Adolin is based on this foppish, charismatic heir to the Kholin princedom that is an excellent soldier and son, who does the right thing, etc. When Shallan finds out that Adolin murdered Sadeas, that image of him is going to be stripped away. It's going to take on darker tones. She's going to worry that she missed signs, that who he was in her head was not who he really was. Shallan's previously drawn a parallel between her father and Adolin at the end of WoR--when Adolin says that he will protect Shallan and she will never be in danger again, and she reacts pretty harshly. That was what her father had done to her, locked her away like a pretty doll, all to "protect her." It might sound irrational, but I think she'll draw similar parallels when she finds out that Adolin murdered Sadeas in anger. People with trauma do not always react to things rationally, and Shallan has a heaping mountain of trauma that she is trying to avoid. And when that happens, Adolin will no longer be as easy to be around. Her inner pain will begin to corrupt her joy at his presence, until she no longer can stand to be around him. And I think fear is going to be a part of that. Also, Shallan is not working through her problems. She's not addressing what happened. She's avoiding them. She becomes Veil, or Radiant, or throws herself into her studies in order to avoid what is right before her. She clearly hates herself--she's built up lie after lie to hide what she has done and who she's become and wrapped it around herself like a protective skin, hiding the broken, fearful, raw Shallan underneath a Shallan that is witty and a little flippant. Even as early as WoK, we see her throwing herself wholeheartedly into her studies and art to avoid thinking about the things that cause her pain, and those are the ones that don't hurt as much as the ones she hides from. In the flashbacks of WoR, we learn that Shallan suffers from severe PTSD, so strong that her mind protectively blacks out every time that subject comes up. That is not a kind of pain that heals easily, but the power of her Truths is now in effect and so she can no longer simply pretend it is not there--that protective skin has been ripped off, leaving a raw pain that she shies away from. Yes, she is now more self-aware, but rather than embracing that self-awareness she is running from it. She doesn't want to work through the pain. Pain hurts. It's easier to become someone else, someone who doesn't have that pain, than to address it and embrace it as an aspect of herself. That said, what has gotten stronger about Shallan are her walls. She is able to be confident because she has built up protective walls to strengthen herself. To a degree, we all build up walls in our personality so that others will not see what we don't want them to. We learn an accent or dialect because we don't want to come off as uncultured, or we take an interest in something because we want to fit in, or we create a persona of confidence so that others don't see how much we doubt. Shallan has done this repeatedly, over and over, because again, deep down she feels broken, afraid, and pain so bad she should be comatose. She even says this during WoR, that she would be the broken girl from the flashbacks again. The problem is, those walls were as much to hide that part of her from herself, as others, and if she doesn't want to recognize it about herself, than she's absolutely not going to want to let anyone else see that part of her. Because of that she can't be honest, because of that she has to create personas to be around other people, and because of that she is now turning to these personas instead of truly accepting and dealing with the pain. Eventually, she's going to spiral out of control unless she gains a hold on who she is and comes to realize that her experiences have defined her. Remember also that her Truths so far have been "I'm terrified", "I killed my father", "my Shardblade is different from all the other Shardblades", and "my mother tried to kill me." These are deep and heavy truths, and they signify that inner Shallan that she tries so desperately to hide, the one that was broken and numb. It's who she fears becoming. 4
Guest Posted October 6, 2017 Posted October 6, 2017 41 minutes ago, Alderant said: Also, Shallan is not working through her problems. She's not addressing what happened. She's avoiding them. She becomes Veil, or Radiant, or throws herself into her studies in order to avoid what is right before her. She clearly hates herself--she's built up lie after lie to hide what she has done and who she's become and wrapped it around herself like a protective skin, hiding the broken, fearful, raw Shallan underneath a Shallan that is witty and a little flippant. Even as early as WoK, we see her throwing herself wholeheartedly into her studies and art to avoid thinking about the things that cause her pain, and those are the ones that don't hurt as much as the ones she hides from. In the flashbacks of WoR, we learn that Shallan suffers from severe PTSD, so strong that her mind protectively blacks out every time that subject comes up. That is not a kind of pain that heals easily, but the power of her Truths is now in effect and so she can no longer simply pretend it is not there--that protective skin has been ripped off, leaving a raw pain that she shies away from. Yes, she is now more self-aware, but rather than embracing that self-awareness she is running from it. She doesn't want to work through the pain. Pain hurts. It's easier to become someone else, someone who doesn't have that pain, than to address it and embrace it as an aspect of herself. That said, what has gotten stronger about Shallan are her walls. She is able to be confident because she has built up protective walls to strengthen herself. To a degree, we all build up walls in our personality so that others will not see what we don't want them to. We learn an accent or dialect because we don't want to come off as uncultured, or we take an interest in something because we want to fit in, or we create a persona of confidence so that others don't see how much we doubt. Shallan has done this repeatedly, over and over, because again, deep down she feels broken, afraid, and pain so bad she should be comatose. She even says this during WoR, that she would be the broken girl from the flashbacks again. The problem is, those walls were as much to hide that part of her from herself, as others, and if she doesn't want to recognize it about herself, than she's absolutely not going to want to let anyone else see that part of her. Because of that she can't be honest, because of that she has to create personas to be around other people, and because of that she is now turning to these personas instead of truly accepting and dealing with the pain. Eventually, she's going to spiral out of control unless she gains a hold on who she is and comes to realize that her experiences have defined her. Bravo. Thanks for conveying my impression in a better way than I ever could. Have an upvote.
kari-no-sugata Posted October 6, 2017 Posted October 6, 2017 3 hours ago, Shig said: I do think Shallan might be more of a special case, She had bonded and spoken truths before her mother tried to murder her, so it may specifically be her circumstances that make it more difficult for her, not the Order itself. I'd like to imagine a Lightweaver speaking truths that they want to deny, but aren't tied to traumatic experiences ("I am a skilled liar, no matter how much I hate it", "I do not believe in the edicts of my homeland", or something like that). These people are still speaking personal truths, but in these cases, it would be acknowledging an internal struggle, not a trauma. Hard to say. We'll need more examples to be sure, though I think you are underplaying it. I think the minimum requirement for someone to become a Lightweaver is to be "broken" (or rather, cracked) and also that they are lying to themselves to deal with it. Quoting Pattern: Quote “I know . . . little of humans,” Pattern said. “They break. Their minds break. You did not break. Only cracked.” She continued her washing. “It is the lies that save you,” Pattern said. “The lies that drew me.” Little Shallan was able to progress enough to get a Shardblade so maybe it's not that hard? Or maybe it's the first lies that are easier and it's the deep lies that are hard? 2 hours ago, Calderis said: I agree with this. @kari-no-sugata I think that idea is far to colored by Shallan specifically. I don't believe that Lightweavers need to use truths that are exceptionally painful. I think that Lightweavers are about self awareness, and being honest with yourself. The truth required need to be significant, and part of what has shaped them, which usually involves things that people struggle with, or fight against, but this doesn't guarantee pain like Shallan has. I believe Shallan is a very extreme case... And it makes for a good story. Yeah, Shallan is definitely an extreme case and I've said this for years myself. As is Kaladin and likely Dalinar (and possibly others too) Anyway... I hope at least that my thoughts on the relative differences between how Lightweavers are affected by advancing and how other Orders are affected was interesting. Certainly in the case of Shallan it looks like the last Truth is going to be extra painful. I think she'll need some strong motivation to overcome it.
Shig Posted October 6, 2017 Posted October 6, 2017 1 hour ago, kari-no-sugata said: Hard to say. We'll need more examples to be sure, though I think you are underplaying it. I think the minimum requirement for someone to become a Lightweaver is to be "broken" (or rather, cracked) and also that they are lying to themselves to deal with it. Quoting Pattern: Little Shallan was able to progress enough to get a Shardblade so maybe it's not that hard? Or maybe it's the first lies that are easier and it's the deep lies that are hard? I had a hard time trying to find non-traumatic examples off the top of my head, but conflicts of identity could definitely cause cracks, especially if it creates conflict.
Pattern he/him Posted October 7, 2017 Posted October 7, 2017 (edited) @Alderant: Nice analysis of Shallan's problems, have an upvote for it (although it is one of the darkest interpretations possible). Especially nice is the finding that Shallan could come to fear that Adolin might develop to a person like her father. I want to point out that this is just a fear, though. Adolin did nothing wrong in killing in Sadeas in my point of view, though it might not have been the most clever move, it is certainly justified. Sadeas tried to kill Dalinar and Adolin before (betrayal at the tower, assassination attempt at the exploration of the Shattered Plains), the authorities (that is Elhokar in this case) did nothing about it and when Sadeas threatened to make more attemps to take all away from Dalinar (I read that as a threat for more assassination attempts), killing him in consequence definitely was not wrong and not at all influenced by Odium or an Unmade, like Shallan's father was. Well, with the supernatural copycat murders, perhaps Adolin WAS influenced by that entity when he killed Sadeas, but I think not. I also don't see Shallan's walls as negative as you do. Without suppressing her memories, she would have developed to a wretch, as she still fears she would now without her walls. So they have been good for her in the past. When dealing with pain is not possible for whatever reasons, suppression of memories is better than the alternative. I don't see a way a girl could solve those problems without help, when such is even hard and not always possible with professional help. Where I agree with you is that those very walls now fall away with her Truths she has to speak to progress as a Radiant. And they fall away too quickly. Shallan didn't really have time to address her issues from the past, since she was thrown around by new problems arising in the present. Veil was a tool, at first, to solve some of those new problems. Unfortunately, she also offered a way out of the pain, preventing Shallan to deal with it properly. And Brightness Radiant is a creation for the purpose only to avoid the pain Shallan's Truths are bringing. As I said somewhere else (earlier in this thread or another one) before, now Shallan has to learn to endure the pain, if she does not want to lose herself in her illusions. With her self-hate that could be the very thing she is aiming at, though. There is a reason Pattern thinks he is going to die when he stays with Shallan. Edited October 7, 2017 by Pattern 1
Alderant she/her Posted October 7, 2017 Posted October 7, 2017 5 hours ago, Pattern said: Especially nice is the finding that Shallan could come to fear that Adolin might develop to a person like her father. I want to point out that this is just a fear, though. Adolin did nothing wrong in killing in Sadeas in my point of view, though it might not have been the most clever move, it is certainly justified. I agree. I think a lot of people misunderstand me when I make this point. Im not judging Adolin. Personally, I totally feel Adolin was justified in killing Sadeas. But I do think Shallan is going to react badly to the whole situation. Do I think it’s going to be what pushes her overboard? No. I really hope she can come to terms with everything, but the path she’s headed down now is...not good. 5 hours ago, Pattern said: I also don't see Shallan's walls as negative as you do. Without suppressing her memories, she would have developed to a wretch, as she still fears she would now without her walls. So they have been good for her in the past. When dealing with pain is not possible for whatever reasons, suppression of memories is better than the alternative. I don't see a way a girl could solve those problems without help, when such is even hard and not always possible with professional help. I actually agree with you. Absolutely were they necessary for her to mature and socialize. Remember all the flashbacks happen after her Mom’s death, so we actually see her building those walls back up. But like you pointed out, the walls came down quickly, albeit with some pushing from Pattern, who I think realized that without some intervention, Shallan would continue to run from her problems rather than address them. Because of that, the pain is fresh and raw again. 5 hours ago, Pattern said: As I said somewhere else (earlier in this thread or another one) before, now Shallan has to learn to endure the pain, if she does not want to lose herself in her illusions. With her self-hate that could be the very thing she is aiming at, though. I think that pretty much nails it. Have an upvote. I know my interpretation of Shallan is dark, but I think people are too quick to emphasize the perky, witty Shallan and say that she’s just going to “be okay” with stuff. She’s not. As someone who constantly put up walls as a teenager (even around my friends), I really worry about the road she’s headed down, and I think too many are too quick to dismiss what is going on in favor of the Adolin or Kaladin narrative. We’ve already seen some pretty dark stuff from Stormlight—and half of it has come from Shallan herself. What I do acknowledge about the character is she is incredibly strong. Don’t misunderstand me—I believe that she thinks she is weak, she sees herself as fragilly held together. Most of my analysis comes from what I believe is going on inside her head. Externally, knowing what she’s gone through, I admire her courage and refusal to back down. I don’t know that I would have kept going. That’s why Kaladin was so floored in the chasm when she smiled. He saw the inner Shallan in that brief moment and saw the strength that she herself doesn’t see. Sorry for any errors. Had to type this out on my phone. 2
kari-no-sugata Posted October 18, 2017 Posted October 18, 2017 Shallan's latest chapter wasn't as exciting as expected but it does confirm or re-affirm Shallan's attitude towards certain others: Sadeas and Ialai are "crem" in Shallan's eyes - Shallan is almost certainly in the "that’s one problem solved" camp with Palona. We don't see her reasoning though. She practically calls Mraize and the Ghostbloods "evil", or at least that some of the actions have been evil. We can at least guess at her reasoning here but I was surprised at how antagonistic she was - I had expected Shallan to be more cautious and instead her attitude is quite similar to their final meeting in WoR, despite Mraize having her brothers. While Shallan is "me too" in terms of having a "vendetta" with Amaram. She had seemed to be mellowing out a little bit towards him in WoR but maybe she changed her opinion of him when he was disgraced? (Perhaps she thinks that Helaran had a reasonable reason for attacking Amaram...?) I'm not that surprised that Shallan doesn't know that Amaram stole the Shardblade and didn't earn it (and that it was Kaladin who won it) as Amaram's downfall wasn't particularly public and those involved except for him left for Urithiru so perhaps the details didn't get very far? There was no indication that others were talking about the details that I remember.
kari-no-sugata Posted October 23, 2017 Posted October 23, 2017 The latest tWoK annotation is up to the first chapter on Shallan: https://brandonsanderson.com/annotation-the-way-of-kings-chapter-3/ Brandon has said this before so this shouldn't really come as a surprise but anyway: Quote Shallan grew out of my desire to have an artist character to do the sketches in the book. Those were things I’d wanted to do forever, but hadn’t had the means to accomplish when writing the first version of the book. I now had the contacts and resources to do these drawings, like from the sketchbook of a natural historian such as Darwin. One of the things that interests me about scientists in earlier eras is how broad their knowledge base was. You really could just be a “scientist” and that would mean that you had studied everything. Now, we need to specialize more, and our foundations seem to be less and less generalized. A physicist may not pay attention to sociology at all. Classical scholars were different. You were expected to know languages, natural science, physical science, and theology all as if they were really one study. Shallan is my stab at writing someone like this. This comment is for tWoK of course and this is generally what we see in the book - Shallan has a passion for art but also finds just about everything to be interesting. As the story moves on into WoR and OB we see her branching out into other fields and is even learning combat in OB. I expect this branching out to continue. I also think her personas will become a part of this (I'm really doubt Brandon would toss away such an interesting technique) though there may well be some problems along the way. I think it's also worth pointing out that her two Surges (Soulcasting and Lightweaving) are very open-ended, though she's yet to use Soulcasting much. I wondered recently if perhaps she's deliberately not studying Soulcasting because she has no desire to help the Ghostbloods (ie she's being contrarian). Also from the page above: Quote They do have their own language, as hinted at in this chapter, but it’s very similar to Alethi and Veden. I consider the three languages to really be dialects of Alethi, and learning one is more about learning new pronunciations as it is about learning new words. (Though there are some differences in vocabulary.) I would put them even slightly closer than Spanish and Portuguese in our world. I wonder if we'll see this come out in OB now that "first contact" has been made between Urithiru and Jah Keved.
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