[OB] Adolin's Fate in Oathbringer and beyond. A poll.

[maxal she/her]

11 hours ago, eveorjoy said:

Actually Roshar needs a plethora of traditional Radiants if it is to survive.

True but they do not need to all be major viewpoint characters. I think this is what people are mostly reacting too.

11 hours ago, eveorjoy said:

I share your preference. I'd like Adolin to bring his blade back to life and learn his or her name. It's just Shallan asked if such things were possible and Pattern said it was unlikely without the Radiant the spren originally bonded with. A WOB said waking up one of those blade would be agony for the spren. Their would not work right. Like a computer that has had it's hard drive ripped out. I think when the spren bond, they gain part of the mind and personality of their Radiant. Pattern says he is getting his sense of humor from Shallan. 

Now it is not impossible for Adolin to revive his blade, but considering this information it is highly improbable. My guess is the blade would need to be resist some how and then choose Adolin of it's own free will. This could be a problem because we know that blade is a cultivation spren from WOB again. Adolin might not be Edgedancer material. He is a bit more broadminded than Lift, so I don't know if he shares the Edgedancer temperament. Also, do we want Adolin as the second Edgedancer? Lift will be the main Edgedancer. She already has her own novella and another novel is coming in the back 5. Adolin would end up as Lift's foil, yet again. It might better if he draws a spren from an order we have not seen yet. Then Adolin could stand as the audience's representative of that order.

Adolin could be an Edgedancer, and it would be awesome if he restored his blade, but I want him to be of another order. 

Oh well, in the end I will be happy no matter what. I trust Brandon.

It is totally possible, just very hard and improbable. I am really keen on reading it, if it happens and I do think OB is heavily hinting towards it.

I however disagree with you when you say Adolin is not Edgedancer material. While I agree he perhaps isn't one the Circle would have chosen (seeing whom they actually chose), but I definitely Adolin could grow into an Edgedancer. So while yes, Adolin is more broadminded, he is able to grasp the larger picture (unlike Lift), he is very focus on the small things: seeing Gallant, taking care of his family, saving the prostitute, doing something for Kaladin, being there for Renarin... Adolin is always doing the small in appearance very insignificant thing which I think is completely inline with the persona Edgedancers are looking for.

Your worries about Adolin being a "redundant Edgedancers" or him "over-shadowing Lift" or "being just her foil" have been expressed by other people before. My typical answer is the following: Adolin is such a completely different character than Lift I hardly see how his progression would over-shadowed or mirrored Lift's. While Lift is a street urchin who merely learned how to care and listen to those just like her, Adolin is a Prince who was thought to ignore those below him. Lift's growth was tossed in a relatively short number of words. Why? Because it was easy. The combination of her being a little thief and her being just a child makes it very easy for her to progress: there are little stakes to Lift's growth. Oh sure, there were stakes when she saved Gawx, but do we honestly believe Adolin would run away and not come back from someone if he thinks he can help? Of course not. 

As such, I do find the speculative progression of Adolin towards a full Edgedancer to be tenfold more interesting than Lift because the stakes are much higher, the growth is more complex and it will demand so much more from the character than it demands from Lift. It transcend the class separation in ways which is opposite to Kaladin's story arc, in ways which are opposite to most traditional fantasy heroes. I find it terribly compelling.

Also, considering Lift's page time isn't going to peak up until the second half, we know when it'll happen she'll be a full Edgedancer. Her progression will happen through her few chapters. Adolin has so much more page time and focus: we could really see him grow. Also, I find it very interesting to read ONE character who isn't a Radiant, who wasn't chosen BEFORE the story started growing into it. Sure, there will be others, but none with Adolin's importance within the narrative.

16 minutes ago, Hischier said:

I don't really want him to become a radiant. I think there's a really interesting story to tell about Adolin the way he is. He was always near the top of the food chain and finding himself surrounded by super-powered individuals all of which (so far) are either members of or closely tied to his family has to be a dramatic shift for him.  It also makes sense to give the reader's perspective. If most of the battle scenes going forward are from Kaladin's (and other Radiants) POV, our main view of the fighting will be from a character who is almost impossible to kill. It makes sense to give the readers a view from the trenches. In this case in the form of a skilled warrior who doesn't have super-powers.  Plus, BS can't just keep having people's stormlight run out every time he wants to up the tension (it's a very reasonable issue that the characters will likely continue to face, but you can only go back to that well so many times in crucial moments).  

The problem with this story arc is readers have gotten it all wrong. Readers have theorize there is a story to write in Adolin having to deal with not getting powers because they expected his character to suffer from it. It however isn't how it is happening. The truth is readers misunderstood Adolin's character, they thought because he was at the top of the food chain, he yearned to remain there and he would believe he is entitled to super-powers.

This is not Adolin.

Adolin is not envious. He is rarely jealous. He is not entitled. He is a hard-worker who earned what he has gotten. He knows sprens are choosing their knights, he knows they chose "only the worthy" and as such, he genuinely believe the Radiants have earned it. He never thought to be a Radiant himself, he hasn't expressed any angst nor feelings of being "left out", worst he seems to be in complete awe of the Radiants.

As such, there is no story to write with Adolin "having to deal with it". He has dealt with it. He will fight for them in whichever capacity he has and he will not envy them. He will worship them and follow their lead. The End. This story arc just isn't given Adolin any growth: he remains the same. Now I understand there are readers who think he is perfectly fine as he is, but then again, why are we reading is he is to remain static? There is nothing more boring than characters who aren't growing and Adolin from the first two books, as much as I love him, he will get repetitive very fast. The ability to steer characters into unexpected places is what makes stories enthralling: put them in position where little growth is possible (such as Adolin being a war leader who accepts his position and fights for the Radiants) and the story suffers. 

As for Radiants being impossible to kill, well, so is Adolin. As long as Renarin is not too far away, Adolin will never suffer from injuries. Regrowth has removed this particular strain, but then again we haven't seen the foes our crew will face next. They may be so terrible even Radiants will have a hard time winning and stormlight is not infinite.

[+eveorjoy she/her]

I agree with @maxal.

If Adolin was going to show jealousy toward the Radiants he would have done so by now. I thought he would resent Kaladin in WoR, largely because I didn't understand his character. He did, but not from jealousy. He didn't trust Kaladin because he knew something was up. He got over that pretty quickly and before the end he was actively trying to help Kaladin. Which is most likely why the Kaldolin bromance is the most popular choice on the poll so far. 

After Adolin learned everyone around him was becoming a Radiant he seemed pleased, not jealous. I think he will have to deal with it his powerlessness compared to the others, but that plot will its course in OB. His insecurities about not being who everyone excepts him to be will be his story arc. And when he falls and his crime is discovered, I don't think he will be able to fight along side the others. Meaning he won't be able to fight at all, because as amazing as he is put him up against someone like Szeth and he is child fighting with a stick. 

The enemies that are coming are as strong or stronger than Szeth. Adolin will not be able to keep up as he is. In Dalinar's visions the Radiants and their squires were the successful fighters. People like Adolin were cannon fodder. 

And all those bad@sses I compared Adolin to normally either gained more power or became redundant as the stakes grew. Consider Han Solo in the Return of the Jedi. He was mostly getting rescued in that movie. As for Batman, when he has to deal with super enemies, he hides and then uses their weakness or a gadget to bring down his enemy. That is not Adolin's style. He is too direct currently for that kind of fighting. 

I do think Adolin needs a spren to stay relevant in the books. Once the fall of Adolin arc runs its course in OB, I think he will be out in Roshar reviving his blade. 

As for @maxal arguments that he could work fine as an Edgedancer, he convinced me. Not a hard thing to do though. I want Adolin to revive his shardblade.

[Hischier]

33 minutes ago, maxal said:

The problem with this story arc is readers have gotten it all wrong. Readers have theorize there is a story to write in Adolin having to deal with not getting powers because they expected his character to suffer from it. It however isn't how it is happening. The truth is readers misunderstood Adolin's character, they thought because he was at the top of the food chain, he yearned to remain there and he would believe he is entitled to super-powers.

This is not Adolin.

Adolin is not envious. He is rarely jealous. He is not entitled. He is a hard-worker who earned what he has gotten. He knows sprens are choosing their knights, he knows they chose "only the worthy" and as such, he genuinely believe the Radiants have earned it. He never thought to be a Radiant himself, he hasn't expressed any angst nor feelings of being "left out", worst he seems to be in complete awe of the Radiants.

As such, there is no story to write with Adolin "having to deal with it". He has dealt with it. He will fight for them in whichever capacity he has and he will not envy them. He will worship them and follow their lead. The End. This story arc just isn't given Adolin any growth: he remains the same. Now I understand there are readers who think he is perfectly fine as he is, but then again, why are we reading is he is to remain static? There is nothing more boring than characters who aren't growing and Adolin from the first two books, as much as I love him, he will get repetitive very fast. The ability to steer characters into unexpected places is what makes stories enthralling: put them in position where little growth is possible (such as Adolin being a war leader who accepts his position and fights for the Radiants) and the story suffers. 

As for Radiants being impossible to kill, well, so is Adolin. As long as Renarin is not too far away, Adolin will never suffer from injuries. Regrowth has removed this particular strain, but then again we haven't seen the foes our crew will face next. They may be so terrible even Radiants will have a hard time winning and stormlight is not infinite.

No, I don't expect him to suffer from it, I do expect it to be something he has to adjust to though. That doesn't make him flawed or imply desire for power, or jealousy or any other such character traits.  And if he did start to feel a little jealous that still wouldn't be unexpected.  Who wouldn't with his father, brother, fiancee, cousin and even the guard Captain all manifesting superpowers?

Just like feeling fear doesn't make someone a coward, feeling suddenly unimportant or even a little jealous wouldn't make him bitter, resentful or entitled or anything else.  

Also, nothing I said implied I expect his character to remain static.

Quote

As for Radiants being impossible to kill, well, so is Adolin. As long as Renarin is not too far away, Adolin will never suffer from injuries. Regrowth has removed this particular strain, but then again we haven't seen the foes our crew will face next. They may be so terrible even Radiants will have a hard time winning and stormlight is not infinite.

I doubt Renarin will be following Adolin around during battles all of the time so it'll probably still be a concern. 

[Andy92]

I think it's a little early to say Adolin would never be jealous of the Radiants just because he isn't now. We're still fairly early into the series of Radiants being known about publicly. I agree that Adolin has handled himself well up until now, he even was the one encouraging Renarin to summon his blade. But I think it's a bit premature to declare that he'll never become jealous over time. That's simply something we don't know one way or the other. 

[Starla]

I voted for Adolin to be a normal badass like Batman. I like to have at least on non-magic using POV character so we can see events unfold from various perspectives. Unless I'm forgetting someone, at this point we don't have any other POV characters in the main narrative who are not radiants. We have Elhokar and Navani, but we rarely see the world from their perspectives (I think Navani has one POV in two books so far). If Adolin does became a radiant, I think we'll need a new non-radiant secondary or tertiary character to give us some insights on the world through the eyes of a "normal" person. I'd like to see how non-radiants view the events of the desolation, voidbringers, etc. Unfortunately, a new main character would take away screen time from the characters we know and love, so this is not ideal.

I'd also like to see some fallout from the Sadeas Situation. I look forward to seeing how Adolin handles it. I think exile would be interesting, though not if it takes him totally out of the action. Maybe there is an interesting storyline in another country, like Jah Keved (Taravangian/Diagram) or Azir (Lift), that he can be involved in for a time before coming back to Alethkar or Urithiru. I'd like to see him interacting with unfamiliar people and situations. I do hope he can keep his shardblade if he is exiled. Dueling is such a passion for him, and his skills will be so useful in the coming war, I think it would be a waste of an awesome fighter to have him without his blade.

I also voted for the bromance, because... that's just be fun to read.

[maxal she/her]

1 hour ago, eveorjoy said:

I agree with @maxal.

If Adolin was going to show jealousy toward the Radiants he would have done so by now. I thought he would resent Kaladin in WoR, largely because I didn't understand his character. He did, but not from jealousy. He didn't trust Kaladin because he knew something was up. He got over that pretty quickly and before the end he was actively trying to help Kaladin. Which is most likely why the Kaldolin bromance is the most popular choice on the poll so far. 

Ah I voted for this one too 

1 hour ago, eveorjoy said:

After Adolin learned everyone around him was becoming a Radiant he seemed pleased, not jealous. I think he will have to deal with it his powerlessness compared to the others, but that plot will its course in OB. His insecurities about not being who everyone excepts him to be will be his story arc. And when he falls and his crime is discovered, I don't think he will be able to fight along side the others. Meaning he won't be able to fight at all, because as amazing as he is put him up against someone like Szeth and he is child fighting with a stick. 

The enemies that are coming are as strong or stronger than Szeth. Adolin will not be able to keep up as he is. In Dalinar's visions the Radiants and their squires were the successful fighters. People like Adolin were cannon fodder. 

And all those bad@sses I compared Adolin to normally either gained more power or became redundant as the stakes grew. Consider Han Solo in the Return of the Jedi. He was mostly getting rescued in that movie. As for Batman, when he has to deal with super enemies, he hides and then uses their weakness or a gadget to bring down his enemy. That is not Adolin's style. He is too direct currently for that kind of fighting. 

I do think Adolin needs a spren to stay relevant in the books. Once the fall of Adolin arc runs its course in OB, I think he will be out in Roshar reviving his blade. 

As for @maxal arguments that he could work fine as an Edgedancer, he convinced me. Not a hard thing to do though. I want Adolin to revive his shardblade.

I agree with you here. We aren't seeing it, yet, but normal human beings will be canon fodder in the Desolation. Adolin will be given a role, as a leader of the canon fodder, but it isn't one where his character can grow nor evolve. It is one where he just hangs on, keeps on doing what he has done. For instance, take Adolin right now in OB and have him behave exactly the same manner at the end: always trying to compensate, never breaking down, always covering up his own weaknesses, his own failures. His character is however not growing, not changing, not doing anything which you expect book characters to do.

Yes, good point about the other "normal badass": they do not exist. They all have an advantage others do not have. If it isn't super-powers, it is super-suits or super intelligence or memories from the past or wolf form or something. Han Solo had nothing and yeah, he was pretty useless in Return of the Jedi, still he remained a great character, but I feel Star Wars is a very different story. Everyone is powerless: there are no more Jedis. Luke is the only one, As such, Han Solo isn't really "normal badass", it is Luke who is different. Also, Han is able to defend himself against pretty much any foes, against Jedis, but there aren't many of those... SA has a different premise into which having powers won't be as marginalized and where powerless individuals will rapidly become... useless. Useless to the point reading them will become useless. Such is the setting we are working with, one where the world is doomed without Radiants. The same isn't true about Star Wars: they were having their rebellion with or without Luke.

So yeah, seeing Adolin evolve as a character without ever becoming a Radiant will be quite hard, especially since there isn't anywhere for him to go with this route. If he were the underdog, like Kaladin, then he could move up the political ladder, but he isn't. He is at the top of the food chain. He will be the next Highprince. Where does he go from there? And no, him just being the Highprince and dealing with stuff isn't interesting. 

59 minutes ago, Hischier said:

No, I don't expect him to suffer from it, I do expect it to be something he has to adjust to though. That doesn't make him flawed or imply desire for power, or jealousy or any other such character traits.  And if he did start to feel a little jealous that still wouldn't be unexpected.  Who wouldn't with his father, brother, fiancee, cousin and even the guard Captain all manifesting superpowers?

Just like feeling fear doesn't make someone a coward, feeling suddenly unimportant or even a little jealous wouldn't make him bitter, resentful or entitled or anything else.  

Also, nothing I said implied I expect his character to remain static.

And how is it giving Adolin any growth? Adjusting implying what? He has to accept it? Seems like he already has accepted it. And then what? He remains good old Adolin leading armies, fighting as best as he can, but retiring more often then not to let the Radiants finish it up because he lacks the capacity to do so himself.

Where is the growth into this arc? Which path is Adolin's character taking which is interesting to read? How is this a change from the Adolin we have seen so far? How is he growing from the boy we met in WoK? 

This is the main problem with this story arc: everyone says, "but he doesn't have to be static". Alright. Maybe he doesn't, but then again nobody is proposing growth for him other than "oh he will have to accept not having any powers". This is Adolin being static: he already accepted it. He accepted it back in WoR. There is no more story to write on this topic.

59 minutes ago, Hischier said:

I doubt Renarin will be following Adolin around during battles all of the time so it'll probably still be a concern. 

Well, unless Adolin is killed on the stop, grave injuries will be easily taken care of.

42 minutes ago, Andy92 said:

I think it's a little early to say Adolin would never be jealous of the Radiants just because he isn't now. We're still fairly early into the series of Radiants being known about publicly. I agree that Adolin has handled himself well up until now, he even was the one encouraging Renarin to summon his blade. But I think it's a bit premature to declare that he'll never become jealous over time. That's simply something we don't know one way or the other. 

This is true. I would however argue feeling jealous goes against his character. Adolin never envies other, never yearns for what others have. He is easily impressed, he still has his boyhood hero-worship attitude towards Dalinar and the textual at hand suggests he is transferring it to all Radiants. He feels privilege to be close to them. At best, "normal Adolin" transform him into the faithful side-kick, the foil. Sure, such characters can be interesting, but I have already established Adolin has too many viewpoints to work as such character.

Edited October 1, 2017 by maxal

[IllNsickly he/him]

Adolin, whether independently or through an Elsecaller, revives the Spren that is his Shardblade.

However, because of internal things, submits to Odiums influence. 

So far, he is the only character talented enough to challenge Kaladin.

[Steeldancer he/him]

Actually, 

Adolin is Vivenna. 

[maxal she/her]

1 hour ago, Steeldancer said:

Actually, 

Adolin is Vivenna. 

Best theory ever 

[+Wax he/him]

Adolin as normal.  He has that Ellend Venture vibe to him that he wouldn’t normally have any powers.  And BS doesn’t look like the type to re-use the Ellend transformation.

I do think he might get turfed out.  He foreshadows his own execution or exile earlier in WoR.  So, I am sticking with that.

Not sure if he survives the ten books.  My reasoning has been that the Radiants need someone to protect as well.  Elhokar, Navani and Adolin are the reps for normals in this X Men team.  But whether Adolin is one of the survivors  is hard to guess.

Edited October 2, 2017 by axcellence