Brightlord M. Alhstrom he/him Posted August 27, 2017 Report Share Posted August 27, 2017 OK, so far as we can tell, there were only 3 bondsmith (or at the very least, a very small number) who were bonded to special spren (like the stormfather). They were leaders among the radiants, binding them together. However, in watching the following picture, you notice that the symbols of both the Bondsmith and the Truthwatchers are in the center, connected with the other 8 orders. Can we take this to mean that the Truthwatchers also have a leadership role, or at least unifying role, within the orders? Maybe just a pivotal one? Renarin claims he can see the future. And there is a quote about how Truthwatchers were an aloft order, but not from disdain, but from tact. Or maybe I'm just reading too much into this, and it just happens that they both were in the center of the double eye. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asrael he/him Posted August 27, 2017 Report Share Posted August 27, 2017 I like it... I've seen talk that some of the orders are associated more with honor and some more with cultivation... How about the bondsmiths and the right side of the chart lead from honors side and the truthwatchers lead the left side from cultivations side of things. Truthwatchers might have some future sight and that definitely rings more of cultivation then honor. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brightlord M. Alhstrom he/him Posted August 27, 2017 Author Report Share Posted August 27, 2017 (edited) 46 minutes ago, Asrael said: I like it... I've seen talk that some of the orders are associated more with honor and some more with cultivation... How about the bondsmiths and the right side of the chart lead from honors side and the truthwatchers lead the left side from cultivations side of things. Truthwatchers might have some future sight and that definitely rings more of cultivation then honor. I kinda like that, though I'd say Top and Bottom instead of Left and Right. The reason why I say this is because Progression (Regrowth) is on the Bottom Right, and is definitely more of a Cultivation quality than an Honor quality. Also, Bindsmith are right above Truthwatchers in the Double Eye, not side by side, so a horizontal split makes more sense than a vertical one. And thanks. I had already looked at the 10 orders being split in two, though I'd never thought of splitting them by Cultivation vs Honor. Edit: Thanks Calderis for catching my use of Oathbinders instead of Bondsmith. Edited August 27, 2017 by Lord Maelstrom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis he/him Posted August 27, 2017 Report Share Posted August 27, 2017 26 minutes ago, Lord Maelstrom said: Oathbinders Excited for Oathbringer much? Bondsmiths dude. Bondsmiths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brightlord M. Alhstrom he/him Posted August 27, 2017 Author Report Share Posted August 27, 2017 4 minutes ago, Calderis said: Excited for Oathbringer much? Bondsmiths dude. Bondsmiths. Hahahaha. Yea. Thanks for that. Isn't the first time I've done that, though it is the first time on the forums (I think). At the same time, the name Oathbinders would also fit the pattern of Radiant Order names, and it is fairly close to Bondsmith in a couple of ways (Dalinar's Sword, 3rd book Title, near synonym) that I think I can be excused. And yea..... I'm really looking forward to Oathbringer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Velvet Thunder he/him Posted August 27, 2017 Report Share Posted August 27, 2017 With Bondsmiths leading, it sure would be useful to get a glimpse at possible outcomes from decisions. Seems to me they would work perfectly together, making the best possible decisions and leading in the direction that has the best chance of success. Good spot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toaster Retribution he/him Posted August 27, 2017 Report Share Posted August 27, 2017 I am not sure that Renarins future sight has to do with his status as a Truthwatcher. If Truthwatchers were known for future sight, then I doubt it would be seen as something of Odium. That said, it is possible that the Truthwatchers had a leading role. I am a bit confused about the Windrunners though, since they are supposed to be Leading. That is one of their traits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteLeeopard she/her Posted August 27, 2017 Report Share Posted August 27, 2017 I'm going through my WoK reread, and I'm not completely certain Bondsmiths were necesarily always the leader. It does seem the way the wind is blowing, but when you think about it uniting (been the glue that holds everyone togehter) is not necesarily the same as leading. And yes, part of this issue comes from the Windrunners and leading ideal. The way I was thinking is of the difference between leading and commanding. Leading is giving the men something to believe in, so they follow you. Commanding is giving the actual orders to follow. Maybe these two are separated between Bondsmiths and Windrunners. As for Truthwatchers, we've seen so little of them I'm not sure how much we can confidently say. I don't really see them as leaders from what they have shown on the past. But yes as advisors, and once again the glue that binds together different orders. Maybe Bondsmiths and Truthwatchers are on the middle as they were the two orders that didn't get into fights easily with other orders, and that all remaining 8 groups of knights innately trusted. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flying_shadow she/her Posted August 27, 2017 Report Share Posted August 27, 2017 Looking at the diagram, I noticed that the orders are connected to a couple of the others. To be precise, each order is connected by a thick white line to three or four other orders. Is there anything to this or am I looking at the illustration incorrectly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brightlord M. Alhstrom he/him Posted August 27, 2017 Author Report Share Posted August 27, 2017 1 hour ago, Toaster Retribution said: I am not sure that Renarins future sight has to do with his status as a Truthwatcher. If Truthwatchers were known for future sight, then I doubt it would be seen as something of Odium. At the same time, the Truthwatchers are described as a more secretive and aloof Order, (at this is explained not as arrogance, but as tactfulness) so it would make sense if the fact that they have future sight wasn't commonly known. Also, I'm thinking that the "watchers" in "truthwatchers" might be a hint to their being able to watch the future. Come to think of it, that could be the corelation between Bondsmith and Truthwatchers: If they are the two orders who have abilities unrelated to the surges. Bondsmith to binding people with Oaths (or something to that extent) and Truthwatchers with having visions of the Future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toaster Retribution he/him Posted August 27, 2017 Report Share Posted August 27, 2017 5 minutes ago, Lord Maelstrom said: Come to think of it, that could be the corelation between Bondsmith and Truthwatchers: If they are the two orders who have abilities unrelated to the surges. Bondsmith to binding people with Oaths (or something to that extent) and Truthwatchers with having visions of the Future. Wouldn't that be the resonance (I think that is the correct term). When someone has several powers, a resonance, which is some kind of extra power might develop. It looks like Shallans resonance is her memory, and Windrunners have extra powerful squires. So I doubt that the extra power makes Truthwatchers and Bondsmiths unique, since every order can have them. When it comes to Renarin, sure, they might have hid their future-sight, but the connection between seeing the future and Odium still has to come from somewhere. I think that something is up with Renarin. My suspicions comes from this thread if you are interested: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis he/him Posted August 27, 2017 Report Share Posted August 27, 2017 As far as leadership of the Knights Radiant goes, I've never thought any of the Orders lead the others. I always pictured the Bondsmiths as the strategists in battle and the judge/mediator in Urithiru. I think the Orders cooperated, and had set roles both in battle and out (like the Skybreakers as a police force) but I find it far more likely that they functioned as a council of the leaders of each order. I get the feeling that no order would want to be subject to another's oaths, and placing any order above the others creates that issue. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ciridae Posted August 27, 2017 Report Share Posted August 27, 2017 (edited) The Windrunners were strongly hierarchical, so they would have a leader(/s). Maybe the Bondsmiths along with the Windrunners' leaders formed a small war council, with Truthwatchers giving critical information when necessary and advising. The Truthwatchers wouldn't have to disclose any critical information to those who wouldn't directly need it. Then the head Windrunners move to the front, relay and execute the decisions of the war council. Even if Renarin's visions are not normal for your average Truthwatcher, I think it is likely their resonance gives them some sort of edge in regards to collecting valuable information. 'Seeing' doesn't have to be into the future, it could be something like what we think Shallan is experiencing, with visions of things happening at that moment, but more detailed and clear. An order of spies that doesn't necessarily have to infiltrate the enemy. Edited August 27, 2017 by Ciridae Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killik he/him Posted August 28, 2017 Report Share Posted August 28, 2017 As @Calderis said, I don't really see any of the orders as "leading" the others. I think they were more republic in nature. I picture the Bondsmiths as more mediators for the other orders though. Dalinar most certainly would be a battle strategist type, but I suspect there were very non-battle oriented Bondsmiths at times. I think in general they were more the diplomats for inter-KR issues as well as dealing with the leaders of non-KR nations. Again, I see the the Truthwatchers not as leading the orders but as being vitally important advisers due to the future sight thing. I think the Windrunners leadership qualities pertained mainly to battlefield issues rather than leadership in general. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FiveLate Posted August 31, 2017 Report Share Posted August 31, 2017 I read a theory a while ago about how the bondsmiths and truthwatchers powers were more based in the SR vs CR that made a lot of sense regarding this chart....let me see if I can find it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The One Who Connects he/him Posted September 14, 2017 Report Share Posted September 14, 2017 On 8/27/2017 at 8:44 AM, Toaster Retribution said: I am a bit confused about the Windrunners though, since they are supposed to be Leading. That is one of their traits. I always imagined Bondsmiths as the one in Urithiru, a Battle Strategist, and a Frontline General. They all lead, but in different areas. Why not expand that to all of the Orders? If Windrunners fight to protect, then they could "lead" their respective military forces into battle, even if a Bondsmith was ultimately in charge. They also had the most Squires of any order, so that's a large group to "lead." Maybe that Leading attribute is part of why they have so many squires.... Skybreakers are in charge of discipline and order, the MP's so to speak. Elsecallers are in charge of all things Shadesmar, Lightweavers might be in charge of Soulcasting, Elsecallers run the medical tents, etc... On 8/31/2017 at 11:50 AM, FiveLate said: I read a theory a while ago about how the Bondsmiths and Truthwatchers powers were more based in the SR vs CR that made a lot of sense regarding this chart....let me see if I can find it. I remember that one too. Unfortunately, it used the (now confirmed) Voidbinding Chart as it's evidence, citing how the Truthwatcher/Bondsmith glyphs were both on the gemstone and not connected to anything else. I don't actually know about the state of any speculation because of that. It's still a good read. Oh, that's why it's so hard to find. Gosh that title... On 8/26/2017 at 8:37 PM, Lord Maelstrom said: Can we take this to mean that the Truthwatchers also have a leadership role, or at least unifying role, within the orders? Maybe just a pivotal one? Renarin claims he can see the future. And there is a quote about how Truthwatchers were an aloft order, but not from disdain, but from tact. I figured that Truthwatcher Vision would be quite useful to winning a Desolation. Even if they were forbidden from directly speaking of what they saw, I refuse to believe that none of them would go to the Command Tent to provide some manner of tactical assistance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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