Gencon Hemalurgy WoB (Random realmatic discussion)

[Calderis]

8 minutes ago, Cowmanthethird said:

Edit: It seems like most of our differences here stem from the fact that you believe the focus is solely dependent on planet, where as I think its more likely that it stems from a combination of the planet and the specific Shard's power, thus the differences on Roshar.

What I believe is that the focus of a planet is purely determined by the planet, and in a world that has an established magic system, a new shard arriving can introduce their investiture and add to the magic, but can't change what already exists. 

That's why I believe that R&P making Scadrial had everything to do with the magic itself, rather than the easier option of just inhabiting a planet, which would have cost them much much less investiture. 

I believe that the focus on Roshar is bonds, and because of that fact Honor chose it specifically because it complimented his intent so well. 

The magic system on Roshar was preexisting, so all three shards are able to create new spren, or twist existing ones to create new bonds that serve their purposes, but they are limited to operating within the existing system. 

5 minutes ago, Oversleep said:

*cough* trellium *cough*

Perfect example. 

[AbsentKeeper]

2 hours ago, Oversleep said:

*cough* trellium *cough*

I'm really sorry if this comes off as rude, because I really don't ever want to see discussion on the Shard devolve to insults, but I have come very close to downvoting several of your recent posts.

It doesn't have anything to do with the fact that you disagree with me, that's perfectly fine, but you can't just say that I'm wrong and provide no evidence to back it up.

That's not how scholarship works.

2 hours ago, Oversleep said:

*cough* trellium *cough*

 

8 hours ago, Oversleep said:

Yeah, well, my pile of evidence supports what I'm saying.

But I have only read about 200 Hemalurgy WoBs, what do I know...

Both of these are vaguely confrontational and provide nothing to the discussion.

9 hours ago, Oversleep said:

Yeah, and? You can store different senses in tin. With steel you can still steal different physical Allomantic powers.

The power granted depends on what the spike was charged with...? I'm not sure I follow what you said.

Yeah, that's weird. Especially when you realize Feruchemy is not categorized like Allomancy is and instead it has 8 Physical powers, 4 Mental and 4 Spiritual.

I'm sorry, what? Kandra Blessings are made from iron (strength), tin (senses), zinc (emotional stability) and copper (mental fortitude).

None of these steal Allomantic powers.

This one is better, as it raises some valid concerns, but still not backed by anything, other than that you think I'm wrong. 

On the first point, tin stores your sensory perception of the world, and if you perceive it five ways, you have five things to store. If you only had one sense, you'd only have one thing to store, and if you had more you'd have mlre options. (As per the 'Playtapus Feruchemist can store electro-sense WoB) This isn't even remotely the same as stealing both steel and pewter Allomancy with the same spike, it would be more analogous to choosing a memory to store in a coppermind.

On the second point, we have a WoB that the quadrent of the heart a person is spiked in makes a difference as to what can be stolen. I will find it and edit it in here in just a second.

Quote

KYTHIS

Unknown question.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Hemalurgy-when you spike, you place the spike in a place that determines which charge the spike gets. Q: Through the heart seems to pick up universally. A: It depends on where in the heart. It's like acupuncture. This is designed from acupuncture and you get very specific on which nerves you're hitting and things like that Q: So the spike will never pick up more than one power. A: Not the way they know how to do it.

On the third point, that is simply not true. The fourth quadrent of the Feruchemy chart contains 'hybrid' traits, only 3 of which could reasonably be called physical. For storing food and water, health, and breath, I could see the argument that they are simply more physical metals, but mental determination?  That one kinda breaks that argument unless you claim it enhances determination through brain chemistry, which could be claimed for any of the mental powers.

On the fourth point, I admit I was wrong here, I was remembering that the spike ReLuur lost was pewter for some reason. This is why I said I need a reread before I make this argument.

Edit again: @Calderis trellium is definitely odd, but it doesn't go against the new system that I'm proposing. The base idea of my theory is that the metals are still tied closely into the system, just as modifiers that act on what is being stolen, or the effect of placing a spike in a particular bindpoint, rather than the actual focus. Its mostly a semantic difference, but it would mean that we don't have to reconcile several odd facts: Such as the fact that a pair of Kandra blessings makes a Kandra even when they are a different metal. It still makes a Kandra, because the bindpoints determine that, while the metal determines what kind of Kandra it is. Just like an Aon might always make fire, but modifiers determine what kind of fire.

Edited August 22, 2017 by Cowmanthethird
Edited in relevant WoB

[Calderis]

@Cowmanthethird I understand, I just disagree. The focus is a realmatic feature, and from everything I've seen from Brandon so far, that term is universal to all systems derived on a single planet. Until I see something definitive that contradicts that, I will consider hemalurgy's focus to be metal, because that is the focus of both of the other Scadrian systems. It is the portion of Hemalurgy that actually holds the investiture. 

Between the points that Oversleep, Yata, and I have made... I just hold to the definition that I've come to accept through the evidence I've seen. 

You're obviously free to disagree, but at this point, after multiple years of reading, and months of participation in discussions about foci (Roshar being of particular interest to me), I won't easily accept a change in the definition. 

[AbsentKeeper]

23 minutes ago, Calderis said:

@Cowmanthethird I understand, I just disagree. The focus is a realmatic feature, and from everything I've seen from Brandon so far, that term is universal to all systems derived on a single planet. Until I see something definitive that contradicts that, I will consider hemalurgy's focus to be metal, because that is the focus of both of the other Scadrian systems. It is the portion of Hemalurgy that actually holds the investiture. 

Between the points that Oversleep, Yata, and I have made... I just hold to the definition that I've come to accept through the evidence I've seen. 

You're obviously free to disagree, but at this point, after multiple years of reading, and months of participation in discussions about foci (Roshar being of particular interest to me), I won't easily accept a change in the definition. 

I understand, if everyone agreed with me, I wouldn't have to make the argument. Maybe I'll change some minds when I put all the evidence I can find together, maybe not.

What are your thoughts on the discrepancies in the Rosharan systems that I mentioned earlier?

Surgebinding definitely relies on bonds, but what about the ancient fabrials that don't contain spren, but just use stormlight? And what about the Old Magic? As I said before, you could say you're 'bonded' to a curse and a boon, but I think that's a bit weak. You can say anything is a bond if you use the word that poetically.

Edit: Oh, and the Honorblades, which actively avoid the usually required bond?

Edit again: Sorry if these are things you've already discussed with other people, but Roshar's magic is one of the main reasons that I think the focus doesn't have to be the same for every magic system on the planet. The Old Magic particularly bothers me in this regard, but maybe you've thought about it more than I have.

Edited August 22, 2017 by Cowmanthethird

[Calderis]

54 minutes ago, Cowmanthethird said:

Surgebinding definitly relies on bonds, but what about the ancient fabrials that don't contain spren, but just use stormlight? And what about the Old Magic? As I said before, you could say you're 'bonded' to a curse and a boon, but I think that's a bit weak. You can say anything is a bond if you use the word that poetically

For fabrials, frankly we know nothing about how they work. Until we see something that gives indication of the mechanism, all we have is speculation. 

My opinion is that their creators found a way to partially mimic the Honorblades and that a bond is formed between the user and the fabrial via contact. I think this is why people soulcasting is said to become easier the more someone uses them. The bond between a wielder and their Soulcaster can be strengthened. 

For the Old Magic, I don't think there's any need of a bond on the part of the supplicant. Again, we don't know much about the Old Magic, or the Nightwatcher, but what we do know is that she is a splinter of (presumably) Cultivation of roughly the same magnitude as the Stormfather. We don't know if she is bound by the same rules as mortal use of investiture, but I doubt it. Even Windspren are known to use surges. Even if she is bound, whatever she does in the valley is permanent. Her curses are all neurological in nature, and suspect that her boons are enacted through similar means. Even with lift. She was moved to exist more heavily in the Cognitive Realm than is, and rather than an ongoing relationship that must be maintained, this appears to be a permanent change. Whatever happens in the valley, be it a magic system (which I don't think is true) or not, it's no longer a magical effect after, but a physiological change that requires no upkeep. 

[Oversleep]

1 hour ago, Cowmanthethird said:

I'm really sorry if this comes off as rude, because I really don't ever want to see discussion on the Shard devolve to insults, but I have come very close to downvoting several of your recent posts.

It doesn't have anything to do with the fact that you disagree with me, that's perfectly fine, but you can't just say that I'm wrong and provide no evidence to back it up.

That's not how scholarship works.

The feeling's mutual, pal.

And that thing you pulled off here? Being rude and then saying "oh I don't want the discussion on the Shard go to being rude to each other"? That's top-level passive-agressive thing you have going on here.

1 hour ago, Cowmanthethird said:

Both of these are vaguely confrontational and provide nothing to the discussion.

And this does contribute to discussion and does not dismiss anything we're saying offhandedly:

9 hours ago, Cowmanthethird said:

I'll start my reread of Mistborn and every Hemalurgy WoB I can find tonight when I get home, but it is my personal opinion, supported by quite the pile of evidence, that most of what is in these two posts claim is only assumed, and quite frequently goes against what we see of Hemalurgy in practice, and our understanding of how Realmatics works in general.

Yeah. Nothing vaguely confrontational with calling what we say being only assumed... without even pointing out where we're wrong. Please tell us what is only assumed. Please tell us what "goes against what we see of Hemalurgy in practice and our understanding of how Realmatics works in general".

1 hour ago, Cowmanthethird said:

On the third point, that is simply not true. The fourth quadrent of the Feruchemy chart contains 'hybrid' traits, only 3 of which could reasonably be called physical. For storing food and water, health, and breath, I could see the argument that they are simply more physical metals, but mental determination?  That one kinda breaks that argument unless you claim it enhances determination through brain chemistry, which could be claimed for any of the mental powers.

How about you go and check for yourself before you say I'm wrong...?

Quote

BRANDON SANDERSON (paraphrased)

As it turns out, there is an error in the Feruchemical table when Brandon put it in Mistborn 2. If you look closely, Determination (insert metal) doesn't belong in its group. The group that it is in is obviously more physical powers. Determination was supposed to be a mental metal, and Warmth was supposed to be in that Physical group. He just made a mistake originally. But it turns out that Feruchemy obeys different rules than Allomancy, so Brandon isn't retconning it, but saying that Feruchemy works differently now. Apparently there was going to be a table of Feruchemy at the end of Alloy of Law, but it wasn't ready because Isaac kept thinking like an Allomancer. Feruchemy has its own rules (for example, Brandon confirmed that pewter does steal Feruchemical health, probably because that second group of physical Feruchemical powers are also "physical", so pewter can steal them.) Hemalurgy also obeys different rules.
source

Quote

Are the usual quadrants (Physical, Mental, Temporal, Enhancement) preserved in Feruchemy and Hemalurgy?

Brandon Sanderson.

No. In Ferchemy, it is based Realmatically. There is a quadrant of Spiritual, a quadrant of Cognitive and two quadrants of Physical.
source

Once you realize that determination and warmth should had been switched you should see it clearly.

Those "hybrid" traits you speak of are just a product of the Mistborn Adventure Game which we should not consider canon:

Quote

Most of the things in the RPG books relating to the metals that you don't see in the books fall under the "We need to make a game out of this somehow, Brandon" clause. I've told them they can extrapolate if they want, but that I wouldn't consider their extrapolations cannon.

I've said before that you should consider any games you play to be in an alternate dimension anyway, where the rules work slightly differently, [...]. Plus, it will be years before I can get to the nature of all this in the next trilogy, so we'll see how relevant it all is in five years or so.
source

Quote

MAG shouldn't be taken as gospel on this point
source

Summing everything up, it's funny how you call out us being wrong without saying where or supporting evidence while talking about having lots of evidence... while getting basic stuff about Hemalurgy wrong (like the metals for kandra Blessings).

As for the whole focus thing, we could keep going and going and going but this would distract from the actual discussion and would lead nowhere.

------------------------

4 hours ago, Calderis said:

That's why I believe that R&P making Scadrial had everything to do with the magic itself, rather than the easier option of just inhabiting a planet, which would have cost them much much less investiture. 

Have you arrived at that conclusion yourself? If yes, that would be awesome since I have a theory like that and having you arrive at the same conclusion independently is nice.

[Steeldancer]

All I get out of this is that we can't have tattoo spikes. That idea broke my brain. So glad it's disproved entirely. 

[Calderis]

22 minutes ago, Oversleep said:

Have you arrived at that conclusion yourself? If yes, that would be awesome since I have a theory like that and having you arrive at the same conclusion independently is nice.

Yeah. It grew out of my belief that Roshar's preexisting system constrained the Shards there to work within it. I've written it out in a couple spots before in more detail. Hadn't seen yours. That's cool.

Edit: @Flash yeah... That one was... Something 

Edited August 23, 2017 by Calderis

[AbsentKeeper]

24 minutes ago, Oversleep said:

The feeling's mutual, pal.

And that thing you pulled off here? Being rude and then saying "oh I don't want the discussion on the Shard go to being rude to each other"? That's top-level passive-agressive thing you have going on here.

And this does contribute to discussion and does not dismiss anything we're saying offhandedly:

Yeah. Nothing vaguely confrontational with calling what we say being only assumed... without even pointing out where we're wrong. Please tell us what is only assumed. Please tell us what "goes against what we see of Hemalurgy in practice and our understanding of how Realmatics works in general".

How about you go and check for yourself before you say I'm wrong...?

Once you realize that determination and warmth should had been switched you should see it clearly.

Those "hybrid" traits you speak of are just a product of the Mistborn Adventure Game which we should not consider canon:

Summing everything up, it's funny how you call out us being wrong without saying where or supporting evidence while talking about having lots of evidence... while getting basic stuff about Hemalurgy wrong (like the metals for kandra Blessings).

I wasn't being rude, I was pointing out something that I knew would make you mad, and tried my best to clarify that it wasn't anything personal or intended to start a fight.

Many of those things are assumptions, just because they are based in solid logic, they don't have definitive textual support or a direct WoB. Perhaps hypothesis would have been a kinder word than assumption. Either way, I did go back with a later post and address all of your points.

On the topic of determination and blessings, good God, forgive me if I got a couple facts wrong. Remember when I said that I needed to reread Mistborn before writing the minute of the theory? 

Summing up, I didn't "call out" everyone who said I was wrong, just you, because I thought you were rude and unhelpful. Also, I explained in my original post that the reason I didn't answer right away was because I didn't have time to type it out before going to class.

If you still want to fight with me, send me a PM or something, everyone doesn't need to listen to this.

Edited August 23, 2017 by Cowmanthethird

[Calderis]

1 minute ago, Cowmanthethird said:

Many of those things are assumptions, just because they are based in solid logic, they don't have definitive textual support or a direct WoB.

And this is the heart of our disagreements. Just because I can't find them at the moment, doesn't mean that we haven't heard from Brandon on the subject. 

I'm going to go search for that thread again. It's not on theoryland, or any of the databases here, because it was posted directly by Chaos after a conversation between him and Brandon. 

I'll post again once I find it. 

[AbsentKeeper]

I assume that you're talking about the Nalthis focus one, and I really would like to see that one.

However, the 'assumptions' I was referring to were only the specific statements I quoted, about bindpoints in the heart (which I posted a WoB for), and the specific points of Oversleep's that I already responded to.

For the most part, if you say there's a WoB, I won't doubt you, although of course I want to see it.

Edit: I certainly didn't mean to imply that all of anyone's statements were unsupported, only those specific ones. Wow, this could explain a lot.

Edited August 23, 2017 by Cowmanthethird

[+Extesian]

@Calderis are you thinking of this thread?

Quote

Some backstory: In my own discussion with Brandon (from 2009, I believe), he said that Aons are the focuses for AonDor, metal is the focus for the Metallic Arts. Those are sort of no-brainers. But then he surprised me, and said that the Commands are the focus in Warbreaker. At the time, I had guessed color, so that revelation blindsided me.

[Oversleep]

28 minutes ago, Cowmanthethird said:

On the topic of determination and blessings, good God, forgive me if I got a couple facts wrong. Remember when I said that I needed to reread Mistborn before writing the minute of the theory? 

Well, when I go and tell people they're wrong, I make sure I know what I'm talking about, that's all.

28 minutes ago, Cowmanthethird said:

Either way, I did go back with a later post and address all of your points.

*rereads the whole thread* Could you point me to that post? I admit I'm a little getting lost in "who said what" thing and I may just not know which one you're refering to.

28 minutes ago, Cowmanthethird said:

Summing up, I didn't "call out" everyone who said I was wrong, just you, because I thought you were rude and unhelpful. Also, I explained in my original post that the reason I didn't answer right away was because I didn't have time to type it out before going to class.

If you still want to fight with me, send me a PM or something, everyone doesn't need to listen to this.

I'm only rude and unhelpful when somebody tells me that I'm wrong, says he has evidence to prove it but when asked for it says he has not yet had time to research it. I'm not sure what you're about with the "answer right away" thing, I didn't call you out for not responding in time, did I?

I'm not fighting anyone. But when somebody is being confrontational without showing evidence and I do the same in return and then he calls me out on not showing evidence, well... I do not take well to that kind of behavior.

So, I'm sorry if any of my posts back then came out straight out rude. I was aiming for light sarcasm, tops. As for my previous post, I have nothing to apologize for. It is harsh in tone and was intended to be.

@Extesian, thanks for that focus WoB, it's a pain in the chull to find it every time someone says the focus thing is but a theory. I'm gonna bookmark it good.

Edited August 23, 2017 by Oversleep

[Calderis]

13 minutes ago, Extesian said:

@Calderis are you thinking of this thread?

That's the one that has the Nalthis thing and I had already found it and kept searching because I know there's one somewhere about the focus being a product of the planet. 

I'm having no luck there though, so thanks for getting that thread up. You wouldn't happen to have a focus/planet one up your sleeve would you? 

Edited August 23, 2017 by Calderis

[AbsentKeeper]

2 hours ago, Cowmanthethird said:

 On the first point, tin stores your sensory perception of the world, and if you perceive it five ways, you have five things to store. If you only had one sense, you'd only have one thing to store, and if you had more you'd have mlre options. (As per the 'Playtapus Feruchemist can store electro-sense WoB) This isn't even remotely the same as stealing both steel and pewter Allomancy with the same spike, it would be more analogous to choosing a memory to store in a coppermind.

On the second point, we have a WoB that the quadrent of the heart a person is spiked in makes a difference as to what can be stolen. I will find it and edit it in here in just a second.

On the third point, that is simply not true. The fourth quadrent of the Feruchemy chart contains 'hybrid' traits, only 3 of which could reasonably be called physical. For storing food and water, health, and breath, I could see the argument that they are simply more physical metals, but mental determination?  That one kinda breaks that argument unless you claim it enhances determination through brain chemistry, which could be claimed for any of the mental powers.

On the fourth point, I admit I was wrong here, I was remembering that the spike ReLuur lost was pewter for some reason. This is why I said I need a reread before I make this argument.

Edit again: @Calderis trellium is definitely odd, but it doesn't go against the new system that I'm proposing. The base idea of my theory is that the metals are still tied closely into the system, just as modifiers that act on what is being stolen, or the effect of placing a spike in a particular bindpoint, rather than the actual focus. Its mostly a semantic difference, but it would mean that we don't have to reconcile several odd facts: Such as the fact that a pair of Kandra blessings makes a Kandra even when they are a different metal. It still makes a Kandra, because the bindpoints determine that, while the metal determines what kind of Kandra it is. Just like an Aon might always make fire, but modifiers determine what kind of fire.

@Oversleep this is the post I was referring to. I admitted to being wrong on the 3rd and 4th points, but provided a WoB for one of the others, and referenced a well known one without posting it for the other, so plenty of support.

On the point of not having time, that was why I didn't provide support immediately, but rather posted it later.

Edit: @Extesian that thread does put a damper on my theory, but@Calderis the one you're talking about does sound much more definitive and Realmatically useful.

Edited August 23, 2017 by Cowmanthethird

[Steeldancer]

So a focus is how the magic is used. Which would mean the focus on Roshar should be... Surges. 

[Calderis]

2 minutes ago, Flash said:

So a focus is how the magic is used. Which would mean the focus on Roshar should be... Surges. 

It's not just how it's used, it's the object /force that shapes the power. 

For Roshar, the surges are the forces being used. The focus should be what determines which surge is able to be used. It's why the two main competing theories are spren and bonds, with the Spren being the more popular of the two. 

I'm a bond proponent, primarily because of the Honorblades not being spren, and squires gaining power from the bond with their Radiant and not a spren directly. 

[Oversleep]

12 minutes ago, Cowmanthethird said:

On the first point, tin stores your sensory perception of the world, and if you perceive it five ways, you have five things to store. If you only had one sense, you'd only have one thing to store, and if you had more you'd have mlre options. (As per the 'Playtapus Feruchemist can store electro-sense WoB) This isn't even remotely the same as stealing both steel and pewter Allomancy with the same spike, it would be more analogous to choosing a memory to store in a coppermind.

.This is one I didn't want to go into because it gets back to the whole focus discussion. Anyway, Hemalurgy deals with stealing Investiture. Why wouldn't physical allomantic powers be coded in the "same kind" of Spiritweb that could be stolen by the steel spike? Just like the analogy you did with tin Feruchemy. The steel spike steals "physical Allomantic powers" which are four of, just like tin stores senses which we have about five of (traditionally recognized, that is).

Bendalloy Feruchemy (however it works) stores both food and fluids which are also distinct things.

Hell, nicrosil Feruchemy is way more vague than Hemalurgy! One metal stores *everything* Hemalurgy can steal!

12 minutes ago, Cowmanthethird said:

On the second point, we have a WoB that the quadrent of the heart a person is spiked in makes a difference as to what can be stolen. I will find it and edit it in here in just a second.

I wasn't saying you were wrong on this one. I was saying I wasn't sure what you meant; I just didn't understand the sentence you wrote and was asking for clarification. That's why "I didn't follow". The way I read it back then sounded like somehow the power granted change depending on where it was spiked in after charging it (while it's the other way around).

------

1 minute ago, Calderis said:

It's not just how it's used, it's the object /force that shapes the power. 

For Roshar, the surges are the forces being used. The focus should be what determines which surge is able to be used. It's why the two main competing theories are spren and bonds, with the Spren being the more popular of the two. 

I'm a bond proponent, primarily because of the Honorblades not being spren, and squires gaining power from the bond with their Radiant and not a spren directly. 

Yeah, focus is something that shapes or determines the power (I'm fond of radio channel frequency analogy).

And the Surges... the Surges come to me as close second theory to spren. I mean, spren are basically a living pair of Surges, that's not a big jump.

And Brandon has talked about how every Surge can be accessed/used in three different ways, so maybe it's the Surge that's the focus? But it behaves differently depending on how it's accessed (Surgebinding, Voidbinding or the "third system").

If you go with spren theory, the Honorblades can be seen as kind of artificial spren or even part of the "third system" we know fabrials are part of. If you go with Surges theory, then it's even simpler.

Squires kind of bond their Radiant (we agree on that) so their bond to the spren is second-hand but it's not much of an argument against spren theory.

Edited August 23, 2017 by Oversleep

[AbsentKeeper]

16 minutes ago, Oversleep said:

.This is one I didn't want to go into because it gets back to the whole focus discussion. Anyway, Hemalurgy deals with stealing Investiture. Why wouldn't physical allomantic powers be coded in the "same kind" of Spiritweb that could be stolen by the steel spike? Just like the analogy you did with tin Feruchemy. The steel spike steals "physical Allomantic powers" which are four of, just like tin stores senses which we have about five of (traditionally recognized, that is).

Bendalloy Feruchemy (however it works) stores both food and fluids which are also distinct things.

Hell, nicrosil Feruchemy is way more vague than Hemalurgy! One metal stores *everything* Hemalurgy can steal!

My logic behind this was mostly related to the heart WoB, which suggested that there was a specific bindpoint in the heart for each of the four powers stealable per metal, and the comments below that to Calderis about Aon modifiers. 

Since Brandon said 'the focus of the metallic arts is metal', I could continue to argue, since, according to my theory, Hemalurgy isn't a metallic art.

I won't though, simply because I'm not convinced that Brandon would be that sneaky with WoBs, and I wasn't that firm a believer in my own theory to begin with.

I might still write up the theory out of boredom one day though, unless Calderis digs up that Rusting WoB that could shoot it down with just the words "The focus depends on the planet, not the Shard"

Edited August 23, 2017 by Cowmanthethird

[Oversleep]

10 minutes ago, Cowmanthethird said:

heart WoB, which suggested that there was a specific bindpoint in the heart for each of the four powers stealable per metal

That's not what it says though:

3 hours ago, Cowmanthethird said:

KYTHIS

Unknown question.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Hemalurgy-when you spike, you place the spike in a place that determines which charge the spike gets.

Q: Through the heart seems to pick up universally.

A: It depends on where in the heart. It's like acupuncture. This is designed from acupuncture and you get very specific on which nerves you're hitting and things like that

Q: So the spike will never pick up more than one power.

A: Not the way they know how to do it.

It seems heart have a few bindpoints, and like the rest of the bindpoints, different ones can be used to steal different things. We have seen to little of Hemalurgy - I don't know what that guy is refering to with that whole "heart seems to pick up universally".

Honestly, I am not even sure the "four powers - one spike" is correct. That pewter spike stealing gold Feruchemy can even mean it can steal all 8 Feruchemical Physical powers.

[Andy92]

So if you managed to gain the power of Surgebinding via Hemulurgy, could you use the Surges you stole without living up to the oaths? Would it be like overriding the system, or could you still lose the power to Surgebind if you "regressed" in keeping oaths?

Because if you gained the ability to Surgebind with Hemulurgy, there wouldn't be an oath involved with the person gaining the powers...so it seems like a big hack of the system to me. 

[Oversleep]

50 minutes ago, Calderis said:

You wouldn't happen to have a focus/planet one up your sleeve would you?

Aren't you perhaps mistaking this WoB for something else by accident?

Quote

[Hemalurgy], like the other two powers, was not created by Ruin or Preservation, but by the natural state of the world and its interaction with the gods who created it.

source

If you PM me, I can link you some WoBs you could find useful.

[+Extesian]

After an exhaustive search I can find nothing saying the focus depends on the planet, all RAFOs and suggestions based on what we do know.

We know the magic system depends on the interaction of the Shard and the planet

Quote

BRANDON SANDERSON

Is Hemalurgy dead? No, not at all. It, like the other two powers, was not created by Ruin or Preservation, but by the natural state of the world and its interaction with the gods who created it. It still requires the same method of creation, but very few people are aware of how it works.

But I'm wondering if we're being too presumptive that we understand focus properly

Quote

Question

What is the definition of a focus (in The Way of Kings' Ars Arcanum)?

Brandon Sanderson

Foci, though linked to the magic system, are more like artifacts of the philosophy surrounding the magic system. A focus is a philosophical concept, rather than a hardfast rule related to the magic system. A man-made, artificial way of explaining the magic system. Like the periodic table.

Coppermind says it depends on the planet and the Shard but with no reference. If someone else can find something definitive, they're better than this WoB-hunter

[Calderis]

11 minutes ago, Oversleep said:

Aren't you perhaps mistaking this WoB for something else by accident?

If you PM me, I can link you some WoBs you could find useful.

 

10 minutes ago, Extesian said:

After an exhaustive search I can find nothing saying the focus depends on the planet, all RAFOs and suggestions based on what we do know.

We know the magic system depends on the interaction of the Shard and the planet

But I'm wondering if we're being too presumptive that we understand focus properly

Coppermind says it depends on the planet and the Shard but with no reference. If someone else can find something definitive, they're better than this WoB-hunter

Not as definitive as I'd hoped (but what is?) 

Thank you both. 

[AbsentKeeper]

@Extesian

Those WoBs are indeed very interesting.

Neither say that there can be only one focus per planet, but that second one seems to imply that 'focus' isn't a Realmatic constant the way we've been looking at it. From the way he described it, it seems like it has more to do with classification than any real part of the Investiture transfer process.

Have we been debating the traits of something that doesn't even exist? Now I feel silly.