Overhyped Character

[mariapapadia she/her]

@maxal while I do appreciate your dedication towards Adolin, I feel like you are more than biased towards him when it comes to other characters. You make it seem like Dalinar has a personal vendetta towards Adolin and wants him to fail, even though he repeatedly says how much he admires his son, how much of a better man he is compared to him, in WoR he was grooming him to take the lead and stepts down to give him more responsability. Also I feel like in WoK he trusts him and gives him responsabilities and tries to involve him and show him how he's thinking. So I don't really understand where all this "but incredibly hard towards those not having earned it (Adolin most notably)" is coming from really. 

I feel like it's more of a compliment towards Adolin and the faith he has in him, the fact that he doesn't "suffocate" him with care as he sometimes does with Renarin. He acknowledges the fact that he is capable enough on his own and doesn't exactly need his special care. 

Also saying Hoid dislikes Adolin and this is the reason he suggests Kaladin should flirt with Shallan is a bit far fetched. I feel like Hoid is always looking for mischief and he wants to spark some minor conflict for amusement, not because he is genuinely mean towards someone who doesn't deserve it. I agree, there is definitely a secret agenda on Hoid's mind, but what he said to Kaladin in regards to Shallan doesn't feel like is part of that. For me it felt more like a playful remark meant to plant the seeds for the reader, rather than Kaladin, for a potential thing with Shallan. For how stubborn Kaladin is, I very much doubt that Hoid's suggestion had any role in his developing feelings for the girl. 

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, mariapapadia said:

@maxal while I do appreciate your dedication towards Adolin, I feel like you are more than biased towards him when it comes to other characters. You make it seem like Dalinar has a personal vendetta towards Adolin and wants him to fail, even though he repeatedly says how much he admires his son, how much of a better man he is compared to him, in WoR he was grooming him to take the lead and stepts down to give him more responsability. Also I feel like in WoK he trusts him and gives him responsabilities and tries to involve him and show him how he's thinking. So I don't really understand where all this "but incredibly hard towards those not having earned it (Adolin most notably)" is coming from really. 

I feel like it's more of a compliment towards Adolin and the faith he has in him, the fact that he doesn't "suffocate" him with care as he sometimes does with Renarin. He acknowledges the fact that he is capable enough on his own and doesn't exactly need his special care. 

Also saying Hoid dislikes Adolin and this is the reason he suggests Kaladin should flirt with Shallan is a bit far fetched. I feel like Hoid is always looking for mischief and he wants to spark some minor conflict for amusement, not because he is genuinely mean towards someone who doesn't deserve it. I agree, there is definitely a secret agenda on Hoid's mind, but what he said to Kaladin in regards to Shallan doesn't feel like is part of that. For me it felt more like a playful remark meant to plant the seeds for the reader, rather than Kaladin, for a potential thing with Shallan. For how stubborn Kaladin is, I very much doubt that Hoid's suggestion had any role in his developing feelings for the girl. 

I can't help how you or other people feels about my posts, but based on this one post, I will say you have seriously misunderstood my apropos. You have taken a few sentences which displeased you, taken them out of the context, out of the larger meta-analysis they were part of and drop them here in order to state how ridiculously biased I am towards Adolin's character. I never said Dalinar had a personal vendetta towards Adolin, this is a gross distortion of other analysis I have written elsewhere which aren't relevant to this thread. Here and now however isn't the time nor the place to dig into it. Why are we even talking about this? And more importantly why do I have the odd feeling this is turning into yet another "Maxal bashing" because we are annoyed she likes to talk about Adolin?

My posts can't please to everyone: for one person who actually upvotes me, there is one who thinks of downvoting me because of how much they hate or disagree with my thoughts. I am however running onto the very naive assumption if people do not like it and do not feel like responding to it, they will ignore it and focus on discussion threads which are more to their personal tastes. Nobody is forced to read my posts: there are MANY threads into which I am NOT participating. Nobody is forced to like them, but I am flustered the "overhyped thread" is somewhat morphing into a venting place where posters can freely state how much they hate my posts, my character analysis and how the combination of the two is making them hate the character they have focused on. It is also doing me real disservice to reduce my contribution to this community to mere Adolin's musings as if I had never wrote any other posts on any other subjects.

Also I have stated why I disliked Hoid. I have also stated I would try to keep a more open-mind, though he is unlikely to be a character I will ultimately enjoy. I have considered the matter close.

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

8 hours ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

In some ways, Kaladin''s growth is stymied by Syl because she's manipulating him to shape him into who she wants him to be. It is still character growth when he comes to view assassinating Elokhar as surgery to remove a festering wound, even if it's not what might be considered positive character growth. As a matter of fact, Kaladin''s greatest 'positive' character growth comes when he is without Syl during the Weeping towards the end of WoR.

I still think that if Kaladin had truly believed that killing Elhokar was for the best, it would have worked. Problem is he didn't really believe that, just wanted vengeance. He usually has problems with his powers when been pushed forward by negative emotions. When his reasons are propulsed by positive emotions, like joy, protectiveness, etc, he is fine. 

8 hours ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

Let me give a clear example. Right before Kaladin jumps into the four shardbearer duel, he worries that things will turn out like they did with Amaram. Syl, only concerned with doing the 'honorable' thing, promises that it will be different. Kaladin ends up in prison. Syl has manipulated his trust in her, broken her own code (albeit without intent), and faces no personal consequences from it.

Good point. I know I am in the minority that doesn't really see how Kaladin did something reprehensible by asking to duel Amaram then.Yes, it was stupid, but it  wasn't wrong. If his eyes were light blue there he would have been acclaimed and beloved then and there. Because his eyes are dark brown he is thrown into prison. I'm never going to see what one person does as wrong because of racism (eyecism?), when by another it would be perfect. Dalinar went some points down there for me with his speech to Kaladin. And Syl really annoyed me by completely dissappearing during the jail time. Kaladin needed her more than ever, and she dissappeared. (Just reread that yesterday).

Overall I like Syl, I think she complements Kaladin well, and I think she just wants Kaladin to follow his own code, but truly believe in it. However, you raise a good point.

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

1 hour ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

And Syl really annoyed me by completely dissappearing during the jail time. Kaladin needed her more than ever, and she dissappeared. 

I agree with all of your post, but this especially. She complements Kaladin in a lot of ways, but already there's seeds to see why the Knights Radiant might have dissolved in the first place. Humans are not meant to live as single faceted ideals, and because of the nature of the spren, Syl's gone when Kaladin most needed an anchor. It's hard not to project feelings from similar experiences I've had irl onto Syl from this perspective.

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

6 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

Humans are not meant to live as single faceted ideals

This is possibly one of the most important and disturbing parts I'm thinking about now that OB is here. I will reserve judgement till the end, as it is possible once the 5 ideals are said there is a balance struck so the Radiant doesn't topple under inhuman expectations. A slight theory which I have, is that Windrunners may have the toughest time of all orders upholding their ideals, since they are the ones closest to Honor. The other 9 have a dash more of Cultivation (or so it seems even if not confirmed), as such personal growth is often included as a prerequisite into the ideals, while Windrunners may be the most rigid of all orders. Unfortunately we won't be able to find that out for a while yet.

Edited September 10, 2017 by WhiteLeeopard

[mariapapadia she/her]

Ok @maxal, let me make something clear. This wasn’t supposed to be an attack to your persona or anything like that. I am not jumping in the “bashing Maxal” bandwagon if that was your impression. It seems that you have had a bit of a disagreement on these issues, but I am new to this forum (as you will see from the fact that I don't know how to quote paragraphs) and to this community and somehow I stumbled upon this thread and only seen your posts here.

 

Given said that, based on what you wrote here regarding Dalinar’s relationship with Adolin I interpreted in the way I did. I was basing my assumptions on things like

“ I dislike his personal biases wanting him to always emotionally favor Elhokar/Renarin as opposed to Adolin. I hate how he spoiled those two, how he is partly responsible for Renarin being so broken by refusing to give him any worth, by treating him like broken vase needing to be cared for endlessly as opposed to someone actually apt to contribute, how he made Adolin grow up thinking he was not good enough for love, how Elhokar became a worst king due to his endless endorsement of his weaknesses. I don't hate that he is a flawed father, in fact I love this about his character because it makes him more interesting to read, but I hate he never acknowledged his failings.” 

 And

“He is a double-edged knife: incredibly forgiving towards those he has sympathy for (and yes that includes Sadeas), but incredibly hard towards those not having earned it (Adolin most notably). I do think there is a real possibility the next book will show Dalinar prosecuting his own son when he wouldn't do the same for Sadeas... It may even start to look as if Dalinar would pick Sadeas over Adolin.... May. I said may, but there is a rational to be had for it.”

From what I could find on this thread ( sorry if I overlooked something), these were the parts you disscused about Dalinar's attitude towards Adolin. Forgive me, but not knowing other points you've made in different threads, this seeed a bit one sided. Impling that he would favor one son/nephew over the other or over his worst enemy (it's true, here you pointed out the MAY, but still) without acknowledging all the times he showed how much he cares and respects Adolin, seemed a bit exaggerated and biased to me. 

I agree, you gave Hoid the benefit of the doubt after others raised similar points to what I said, so I have nothing more to comment on that.

And with this I rest my case. I am not looking for a debate or to bash you for defending one character you love, I just pointed out what rubbed me the wrong way in the context of this thread.

 

 

Edited September 11, 2017 by mariapapadia

[Guest]

41 minutes ago, mariapapadia said:

Ok @maxal, let me make something clear. This wasn’t supposed to be an attack to your persona or anything like that. I am not jumping in the “bashing Maxal” bandwagon if that was your impression. It seems that you have had a bit of a disagreement on these issues, but I am new to this forum (as you will see from the fact that I don't know how to quote paragraphs) and to this community and somehow I stumbled upon this thread and only seen your posts here.

Ah you are new. This explains it then. First, welcome to the Shard  Second, I will say my reaction happened mostly because you quoted me out of context right after another poster expressed the thoughts my posts made him like the character less (which made me sad ). I apologize for misinterpreting your intend, I got overly sensitive on the issue because I do get accused, from times to times, of talking too much about Adolin, whom is my favorite character (duh!). I am very mindful of it. I never start any threads to discuss my favorite character: I usually wait for others to bring the topic, but since I write so much, some get the impression I am somewhat hijacking the conversation.

This being said, you are entirely allowed to disagree with me, you are more than welcome to challenge me on any post I may have made, but this thread isn't the right place. It divert the discussion from its intended topic, "overhyped characters". Worst, it gives me room to write even more on Adolin just after I was told I ought not to. 

My advise is quote me back into the thread where I wrote those comments you disagree with and it will be my pleasure to further express my thoughts: I get notification each time I am either ping or quoted. Also bear in mind those posts are my personal impressions and these are in constant evolution. This thread however isn't the right place to have this conversation, not that I wish not to have it, but it would be a tad against the forum decorum. I thus can't really address the points you have raised, not here: it is out of topic.

To quote, just click onto the quote button at the bottom of the post you want to quote and it will appear into your message box.

No hard feelings. I barf a lot, but I don't bite. Not for long anyway 

[StormblessDave]

Don't worry @maxal, many of us love your posts  (Btw, you are slightly biased to Adolin, just saying,)

Tbh what sort of forum would this be if everyone agreed about everything, Forums thrive on debate which means disagreeing with each others, it just shows ur one of the best.

 

 

[StormblessDave]

Another overhyped character- Nightblood, I believe he will have limitations soon which will quell the God-sword reverence he receives atm.

(Before you make the joke, yes I know that technically he isn't a character)

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

@StormblessDave much of the Nightblood discussion has more to do with magical mechanics than his actual character though.

[mariapapadia she/her]

12 hours ago, maxal said:

Ah you are new. This explains it then. First, welcome to the Shard  Second, I will say my reaction happened mostly because you quoted me out of context right after another poster expressed the thoughts my posts made him like the character less (which made me sad ). I apologize for misinterpreting your intend, I got overly sensitive on the issue because I do get accused, from times to times, of talking too much about Adolin, whom is my favorite character (duh!). I am very mindful of it. I never start any threads to discuss my favorite character: I usually wait for others to bring the topic, but since I write so much, some get the impression I am somewhat hijacking the conversation.

This being said, you are entirely allowed to disagree with me, you are more than welcome to challenge me on any post I may have made, but this thread isn't the right place. It divert the discussion from its intended topic, "overhyped characters". Worst, it gives me room to write even more on Adolin just after I was told I ought not to. 

My advise is quote me back into the thread where I wrote those comments you disagree with and it will be my pleasure to further express my thoughts: I get notification each time I am either ping or quoted. Also bear in mind those posts are my personal impressions and these are in constant evolution. This thread however isn't the right place to have this conversation, not that I wish not to have it, but it would be a tad against the forum decorum. I thus can't really address the points you have raised, not here: it is out of topic.

To quote, just click onto the quote button at the bottom of the post you want to quote and it will appear into your message box.

No hard feelings. I barf a lot, but I don't bite. Not for long anyway 

Thank you Ok! So after I had some time to browse more on other topics on this forum I've seen you popping up so I can understand why you thought I was minimizing the points you've made. 

On what I commented above I was replying stictly to some points I have seen you made on this Overhyped characters thread on the previous pages. With that being said, I agree this isn't the place to nitpick things further, as I don't want to shift any more attention from the main topic of this thread or spam the others 

 I am glad we've sorted things out and I look forward to read more of your indepth analysis on other threads