theory Reflections of Vorinism and the Shades of the Knights Radiant

[Calderis he/him]

51 minutes ago, Pagerunner said:

I am firmly in the latter camp.

As am I. But I think I'm placed in a middle ground. I firmly believe that the Cognitive Aspect is what we commonly refer to as the soul. The physical and spiritual aspects both leave corpses behind. We've seen death in the Cognitive Realm and there is no corpse. The Cognitive goes beyond. 

This is my main issue with the Spren holding them back, rather than the investiture itself. The Spren are not fused with the Cognitive, the merge into the cracks in the Spiritual aspect. 

I think that as investiture pours through from the spiritual, through the Cognitive into the physical, that the Cognitive is slowly expanded and reinforced by that investiture, and after enough time time/use that anchors them after death. 

On a high investiture world like Roshar, with the Oaths increasing the amount of stormlight and efficiency at holding it, at the upper Oaths the idea of Radiants becoming shadows us completely plausible, and I don't think it would require anything on the Sprens part beyond allowing the use of surgebinding and the opportunity to progress. 

The only point I see in favor of this portion of your theory, is that if the Knights believed that the Spren held all of their former bonds from moving beyond, they may have believed that killing the Spren would free them all. This would be a strong incentive for the Recreance. 

[Ciridae]

@Pagerunner My bad, I was so focused on the comparison with petrified wood that I didn't see what Brandon said that comparison meant. I don't believe that the soul is copied and only the investiture imprint remains, while the actual soul goes beyond.

For me it's like the ship of Theseus, you don't have a whole soul going beyond at once. Rather, as an example, when Kaladin's hand is cut with a Shardblade and he uses investiture to replace part of his soul, that investiture then is part of his soul. I have no idea what happens with the bit of hand-soul that was seperated from the rest, but I don't think that it would be considered part of Kaladin's soul after its removal.

These injuries are extreme cases and I don't think that most radiants over the course of their lives suffer enough spiritual wounds to force them to become CS that way. I think it would normally be a process like how over time all of the cells in our body die and are replaced with new cells. Slowly, your soul becomes investiture, but it would still be your soul, and not a copy. Sorry that the first explanation was a little sloppy, I hope this made more sense. 

[The One Who Connects he/him]

On 8/28/2017 at 1:12 AM, Ciridae said:

For me it's like the ship of Theseus,

Wait, this WoB is relevant again?

Quote

Q: Ship of Theseus in Cosmere. If I went and replaced every part of the ship, would it still - Cognitively - be the same thing?
What if I replaced everything and made a second ship out of the parts from the first one? What could somebody watching all of that from Shadesmar tell me?
 
A: You're right, part of the design of the Cosmere (which has some deep roots in classical philosophy) was an attempt to answer the Ship of Theseus question.
In the Cosmere, part of the Cognitive--and even spiritual--aspect of a thing (particularly if it isn't sentient) is delineated by the way that thinking beings define it. Per the old joke about the axe, if you replace your axe head and think of the new axe as "Your Axe," then the cognitive and spiritual aspects of that thing will grow to reflect that.
If you replaced every part of your ship, and gave the sailors time to sail it, thinking of it as the same ship--it would become the same ship.

It doesn't have an actual source to it, but it's the final entry in Pagerunner's Reddit WoB list (Entry 749)

[asterion137 he/him]

On 8/14/2017 at 5:48 PM, Pagerunner said:

She connects the formal right to open borders with the ability to travel through the Oathgates. Though an astute observation, I believe she has mistakenly reversed the causality of the matter. Instead of the Oathgates being a natural progression of the Right of Travel, I think Vorin beliefs were initially formed by the ease of travel made possible by the Oathgates. (I believe the Oathgates may be responsible for the original shaping of the ten Dawncities through Realmatics, and the intentional abuse thereof by humans the method of the destruction of Stormseat. But that’s a tangent, and not terribly relevant at the moment. Suffice to say that the Right of Travel is drawn from the Radiants and their Oathgates.)

I think you misinterpreted what Shallan is saying here. She says that the Right of Travel was based on the Heralds' declarations, and the heralds' declarations of the Silver Kingdoms' unity were symbolically represented by the Oathgates.

[Oversleep]

On 14.09.2017 at 3:16 AM, The One Who Connects said:

It doesn't have an actual source to it

Here you go:

 

[Rogueshar]

I really like this theory except for the part about the Recreance. I don't buy into the whole idea that the Radiants abandoned their oaths because they found out they would be cognitive shadows on Braize and fighting Odium. I would think they would find that a bit honorable (pun intended). 

[Confused]

@Pagerunner, while reading @Blightsong's interesting thread, I followed your link to this topic. I think your OP here is among the best analyses I’ve seen – insightful, thought-provoking, and convincing. Some questions and comments:

On 8/14/2017 at 5:48 PM, Pagerunner said:

But I do think the Heraldic Forces are real. I just think they are comprised of Radiants.

Can’t “normal” people serve as the ideals of their callings or at least as a KR squire? In your “devotaries” quote, the spearman (thunder with his shield, lightning with his spear) reminds me of a Windrunner or Releaser squire. Maybe a farmer who idealizes farmer virtues merges into a lifespren?

On 8/14/2017 at 5:48 PM, Pagerunner said:

Khriss writes in the Rosharan Essay in Arcanum Unbounded that there may be Cognitive Shadows on Braize. If this is the case, how did they get there?

I think Khriss means the Nine Unmade. As you note, Rlain identifies them as listeners who so hated humans they sold their souls to Odium. As Odium splinters directed by the minds of dead listeners, I think they qualify as Cognitive Shadows on Braize. We don't need to seek KR there.

On 8/14/2017 at 5:48 PM, Pagerunner said:

When someone dies, separating their soul from their physical body, that soul will move Beyond after several moments disappearing to a place of great mystery, the true afterlife. But a large piece of Investiture can cause the soul to stay in the Cognitive Realm without moving on; it may be that the Investiture serves as an anchor (as is my belief), or it may be that the Investiture imprints on a soul and copies it such that the being effectively persists after their soul has moved Beyond.

I’ve not seen this debate, so I may be missing something. Unlike other forms of Invested consciousness, a Cognitive Shadow’s mind once Connected to a dead person’s body. Maybe the mechanics depend on the Shardworld and/or the circumstances, but must it happen only one way?

IMO, any Physical Realm-severed consciousness merged with/imprinted on/anchored by Investiture is a Cognitive Shadow. I agree the mind of a fully oathed KR merges with its spren, reflecting union with the spren’s ideal. Upon a KR’s physical death, the spren survives with its merged mind. Doesn’t the Fleet story confirm this?  (I like your thought Fleet becomes the Stormfather, but your post’s logic suggests he would have to be a Bondsmith to do so. You know I think Fleet instead foreshadows SLA’s ending, the Duel of Champions between Kaladin and the Rider of Storms.)

Ironically, I think Honor’s and Odium’s magic both lead to a dead mortal’s mind directing a splinter whose ideal he embodies. Honor’s bond causes a KR to grow into his spren’s personified ideal. Odium’s magic IMO causes the Unmade to break his bonds, reducing him to his spren’s personified ideal.

I agree Surgebinders were not originally KR, although I don’t think they existed before Ishar’s threat. That threat came “at their inception.” That suggests Ishar organized “them” – either men, spren or both –  when spren first granted Surges to men. I speculate this gave rise to the first oath. Keeping with spren’s “copy-the-Honorblades” approach, maybe the first KR oath matches what the Heralds swore when they joined the Oathpact.

Spren chose their targets then as they do now, but IMO lacked the safety valve of phased-in bonding through the oaths. Some spren, less discerning than honorspren, may have chosen poorly.

Along comes Nohadon, who perhaps is a Bondsmith. He laments that Surgebinder Alkavish “brought us to war before the Desolation,” weakening humanity. (WoK, Chapter 60, Kindle p, 850.) I believe Nohadon founds the Knights Radiant and creates the oaths to ensure that only deserving Surgebinders become full KR. All Orders say the first (Heralds?) oath, but each Order has its own oaths for advancing in the bond.

Where are the Tranquiline Halls? I don’t know, but I think “heaven’s battlefield” is the Cognitive Realm bridge between Roshar’s and Braize’s subastrals. The Heralds’ goal is to keep Odium from invading Roshar. The bridge between the subastrals is the “Unmade Forces’” natural route into Roshar. I would expect the Heraldic Forces to meet them there.

I posted a topic asserting the KR abandoned their oaths when they discovered Odium can corrupt Radiantspren. That explains Nale’s concern about the absence of Honor’s “regulation” of the oaths’ “greater power.” It also explains why nine of the Orders acted immediately in unison. Your excellent analysis doesn’t persuade me fear of eternal war is the “wicked thing of eminence” that caused the Recreance.