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Kaladins potential for extra?


StormblessDave

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So this is a pure Kaladin fanboy theory, something that might happen and if it does it'll make us Kaladin fans the happiest sharders. Here goes-

From wok we know that Kal grew up with conflicting goals in life- to be a surgeon or a soldier, he was excellent at memorizing stuff and was very smart making him very eligible for the post of a surgeon, however he found out that fighting came naturally to him as well. Well, in the end he decided the life of a surgeon would suit him better, however the tragic circumstances(Tien's forced recruitment) forced him into accepting the life of a soldier. 

What struck me in edgedancer was

Spoiler

edgedancer chapter 18 old man talking to lift

We watch the others. The assassin. The surgeon. The liar. The highprince......

The fact that he is still called the surgeon and the many instances we saw him fulfilling all of his surgical training on the battlefields in the shattered plains leads me to believe that his life as a surgeon is not over. He is an exception, I saw @Calderis posting of a few theories similarly on Kal's uniqueness, however my approach is slightly different. He is a soldier and a surgeon. His order the windrunners, are one of the few militaristic groups of the ten, this corresponds to his life as a soldier, however I believe he hasn't reached his potential in his life as a surgeon, this leads me to believe that Vedel(patron of love and Healing) might take him in under her wing( assuming she's still around )due to the Taln interlude in Wor

Quote

Wor interlude Taln

Vedel can train your surgeons, and Jezrien.... he will teach you leadership

If she does I believe it will be similar to how Nale took Szeth under his wing, hopefully Kal will get some perks andmaybe a few extra abilities?

That would be a fitting part of his story arc, as the two sides in his life have always conflicted, this would be the perfect way to merge his two lifes together.

thoughts anyone?

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Consider the perspective of who is making the comment. They are watching him, a soldier, in an army. Describing him as 'the soldier' in that context is a bit like describing a drop of water in an ocean. It makes sense for an observer to describe him by what makes him stand out from his fellow soldiers, and his use of his surgeon skills on the battlefield is something that stands out and is commented on.

I don't see him switching orders, making commitments to the herald of another order or attracting another spren, the potential for conflict is too great and after having almost killed Syl learning the importance of the oaths I just don't see him risking a conflicting bond/commitment.

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20 minutes ago, aemetha said:

Consider the perspective of who is making the comment. They are watching him, a soldier, in an army. Describing him as 'the soldier' in that context is a bit like describing a drop of water in an ocean. It makes sense for an observer to describe him by what makes him stand out from his fellow soldiers, and his use of his surgeon skills on the battlefield is something that stands out and is commented on.

I don't see him switching orders, making commitments to the herald of another order or attracting another spren, the potential for conflict is too great and after having almost killed Syl learning the importance of the oaths I just don't see him risking a conflicting bond/commitment.

Not necessarily, if you look at what he said,he called Kal a surgeon, Shallan a liar(which doesn't make her stand out,its pretty vague unless you know exactly what he is talking about) Dalinar the highprince which again isn't very definitive. If I wanted to make him standout id say something like bridgeman or darkeyed captain. It shows that in his eyes the surgeon aspect of Kal was significant, after all Kal still yearns to be a surgeon, however he considers himself unworthy to be one.

I believe you can follow other ideals which don't conflict with yours, quite a few of the orders ideals can infact supplement each other, so I don't necessarily see it hurting Syl.

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This is an interesting idea, but I hope its not true. The reason? Kaladin already steals the spotlight all the time. He saves the Kholin army in WoK, he saves everyone from Szeth in the middle of WoR, Adolins duels ends up with him as the hero, he kills a Chasmfiend, saves Elhokar, and then defeats Szeth at the climax. I feel like Kaladin becoming an Edgedancer all of a sudden would place far too much focus on his character, at the expense of others.

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3 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

This is an interesting idea, but I hope its not true. The reason? Kaladin already steals the spotlight all the time. He saves the Kholin army in WoK, he saves everyone from Szeth in the middle of WoR, Adolins duels ends up with him as the hero, he kills a Chasmfiend, saves Elhokar, and then defeats Szeth at the climax. I feel like Kaladin becoming an Edgedancer all of a sudden would place far too much focus on his character, at the expense of others.

I agree. I would also note Kaladin definitely gave up on becoming a surgeon. There was a moment, back in WoK, where Kaladin reflects on how he could have asked Dalinar to be allowed to finish his training with his team of surgeons except... the thought hadn't even crossed his mind. This is when he realizes, I think, he had consciously decided he would be a soldier. He had an opportunity to go back to being a surgeon, but he chose not to. 

I really don't see him going back to this life. He made his choice. I also definitely do not see Kaladin embodying the attributes of loving and healing: there is too much hate in Kaladin for him to be "loving". He can't have empathy for people unless they manage to make him think of Tien which definitely does not go with the Edgedancers, able to relate to all people, providing they become aware of their plights. He's also really not a good listener, so no I don't see it.

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The Titles of Surgeon, Liar, Highprince, and Assassin, are the ways that the Sleepless refer to the Four they watch. 

Edgedancer spoilers 

Spoiler

Arclo references that in the quote you mentioned, and continues in to how they haven't watched Lift. 

It's consistent terminology with the back cover blurbs, which we now know are in world writing made by the Sleepless. 

I've said before that I think, due to their unique physiology, that the Sleepless have a much heavier Spiritual presence. I think that "the Surgeon" is how they refer to him, purely for reasons of identification.

Their attention seems to be drawn to watching those with a bond, be it to a spren or an Honorblade. We know from Syl's own words that she was drawn to Kaladin in Amaram's army. Much like @aemetha said, referring to him as "the Soldier" would be identifying him by what made him similar to those around him. 

As @maxal said, he's made his choice. He'll use his abilities to protect, as he shown in his oaths. That will extend to using his knowledge to try to keep others alive. But to expand out to focus more on Healing? I don't think so. 

Kaladin is a man of violent actions. He his surgeon skills will continue to help him once the fights are done. 

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48 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Kaladin is a man of violent actions. He his surgeon skills will continue to help him once the fights are done. 

Or upon my wildest dreams train someone else to take over this mantle.

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5 hours ago, maxal said:

I also definitely do not see Kaladin embodying the attributes of loving and healing: there is too much hate in Kaladin for him to be "loving". He can't have empathy for people unless they manage to make him think of Tien which definitely does not go with the Edgedancers, able to relate to all people, providing they become aware of their plights. He's also really not a good listener, so no I don't see it.

I don't agree with this. Think of all the injured bridgemen he helped on bridge runs, even those of other teams who had ridiculed bridge four. He risked getting into serious trouble to strap injured men to the top of bridges so they didn't die on the field. He also organized the knobweed collection to help the injured men. Not to mention he chose to give up bridge four's escape plan to go and help (lighteyed) Dalinar's army in what looked like a lost cause. He did all of this to help others, at great risk to himself.  I think all of these actions indicate compassion and empathy. 

I have a feeling that if Kaladin returns to Hearthstone and finds people injured from the Everstorm, he will not hesitate to go into surgeon mode to help them, whether his father is there or not. I don't see this being related to any of the other radiant orders as the OP theorizes, I think it is his natural tendency to help people in need.

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2 hours ago, Starla said:

I don't agree with this. Think of all the injured bridgemen he helped on bridge runs, even those of other teams who had ridiculed bridge four. He risked getting into serious trouble to strap injured men to the top of bridges so they didn't die on the field. He also organized the knobweed collection to help the injured men. Not to mention he chose to give up bridge four's escape plan to go and help (lighteyed) Dalinar's army in what looked like a lost cause. He did all of this to help others, at great risk to himself.  I think all of these actions indicate compassion and empathy. 

I have a feeling that if Kaladin returns to Hearthstone and finds people injured from the Everstorm, he will not hesitate to go into surgeon mode to help them, whether his father is there or not. I don't see this being related to any of the other radiant orders as the OP theorizes, I think it is his natural tendency to help people in need.

Kind of as an offshoot to this, that would be an awesome way for Kaladin's father to find out he's back. I imagine Lirin coming out of a building and seeing a man in a uniform helping another wounded man, walking up behind him and Kaladin standing up and turns around to see his father.

Also as a side note along the lines of Kaladins potential for extra, the is a line in WoR

Spoiler

When Kaladin is fighting the 4 shardbearers with Adolin and he feels he could have dodged the shardblades with his eyes closed.

Any thoughts?

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7 hours ago, Starla said:

I don't agree with this. Think of all the injured bridgemen he helped on bridge runs, even those of other teams who had ridiculed bridge four. He risked getting into serious trouble to strap injured men to the top of bridges so they didn't die on the field. He also organized the knobweed collection to help the injured men. Not to mention he chose to give up bridge four's escape plan to go and help (lighteyed) Dalinar's army in what looked like a lost cause. He did all of this to help others, at great risk to himself.  I think all of these actions indicate compassion and empathy. 

I have a feeling that if Kaladin returns to Hearthstone and finds people injured from the Everstorm, he will not hesitate to go into surgeon mode to help them, whether his father is there or not. I don't see this being related to any of the other radiant orders as the OP theorizes, I think it is his natural tendency to help people in need.

All people Kaladin naturally feels inclined to protect: had he shown the same gratitude towards other people? No. See how he needed to have Elhokar be Dalinar's Tien in order to agree to protect him? Also him saving Dalinar's army had nothing to do with Edgedancers oaths, but everything to do with Windrunners oaths. To say it is the same implies there are no distinctions in between both orders.

Kaladin has the incentive to protect people from danger, but have we seen him walk to the surgery to help heal those injured soldiers? No. He helped with his own men, his "Tiens", but not with others. He can't feel empathy towards people not remembering him of Tien as we see with Adolin or any lighteyed. One lighteyed (I forgot the name) got killed for his idea, the side-carry and he didn't care: he couldn't have empathy nor sympathy for a guy who died for his idea of a strategy. He didn't even felt it was unfair: he didn't care. 

I strongly disagree Kaladin, on the virtue he knows some surgery, is a great fit for the Edgedancers: not all Edgedancers will be picked out of people having surgery knowledge and Kaladin showed he had no interest to withhold those oath.

Edited by maxal
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20 minutes ago, maxal said:

One lighteyed (I forgot the name) got killed for his idea, the side-carry and he didn't care: he couldn't have empathy nor sympathy for a guy who died for his idea of a strategy. He didn't even felt it was unfair: he didn't care. 

Lamaril deserves no sympathy. 

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 'to be loving' can be taken in different ways, to love those who surround you and look out for them, which is how quite a few people are(including Kaladin, people he feels he has a link to) on the other hand it is very difficult for people to love their enemies, sure you may say that Kaladin is stereotyping the lighteyes, but in his life his only experiences with them has ended in tragedy. So he doesn't 'love' them, he hates them which most people do their 'enemies'. However Kal is moving a step forward by befriending lighteyes and sharing trust with them which is a hugestep forward from hating them as a whole, sure he's far from perfect, but he's definitely improved on that front.

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9 hours ago, maxal said:

All people Kaladin naturally feels inclined to protect: had he shown the same gratitude towards other people? No. See how he needed to have Elhokar be Dalinar's Tien in order to agree to protect him? Also him saving Dalinar's army had nothing to do with Edgedancers oaths, but everything to do with Windrunners oaths. To say it is the same implies there are no distinctions in between both orders.

Kaladin has the incentive to protect people from danger, but have we seen him walk to the surgery to help heal those injured soldiers? No. He helped with his own men, his "Tiens", but not with others. He can't feel empathy towards people not remembering him of Tien as we see with Adolin or any lighteyed. One lighteyed (I forgot the name) got killed for his idea, the side-carry and he didn't care: he couldn't have empathy nor sympathy for a guy who died for his idea of a strategy. He didn't even felt it was unfair: he didn't care. 

I strongly disagree Kaladin, on the virtue he knows some surgery, is a great fit for the Edgedancers: not all Edgedancers will be picked out of people having surgery knowledge and Kaladin showed he had no interest to withhold those oath.

As I mentioned in my last post, I don’t see Kaladin’s tendency to help injured people having anything to do with additional radiant abilities, Edgedancer or otherwise. I’m saying that it’s his natural human instinct to to go into surgeon mode to help people around him who are wounded. I also don’t think it has anything to do with Tien, since it happened both before and after before Tien died. Remember the girl in Hearthstone he tried to save and couldn’t. He was devastated by that, just as he is devastated on the battlefield when he can’t save someone.

Since becoming Captain of Dalinar’s guard, he hasn’t had the time or opportunity to practice his surgeon skills. He's been insanely busy trying to tend all of his duties. That doesn’t mean he wouldn’t help a wounded person if the need presents itself. I don’t see him leaving someone bleeding on the ground to die out of “hatred." This instinct to heal requires a certain amount of selflessness and compassion for others, and I think he has it.

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9 hours ago, Calderis said:

Lamaril deserves no sympathy. 

What did he do which made him deserved to be hanged? Hanged. The guy was killed because of Kaladin's failed attempt at side-carry. Sure, Kaladin asked for the authorization to use the strategy, but I mean, if a strategy I had designed ended up in having someone not relevant to it being hanged, if I were "loving" and "caring", I would feel some level of pity towards this person, no matter how "not nice" he sounded. 

7 hours ago, StormblessDave said:

 'to be loving' can be taken in different ways, to love those who surround you and look out for them, which is how quite a few people are(including Kaladin, people he feels he has a link to) on the other hand it is very difficult for people to love their enemies, sure you may say that Kaladin is stereotyping the lighteyes, but in his life his only experiences with them has ended in tragedy. So he doesn't 'love' them, he hates them which most people do their 'enemies'. However Kal is moving a step forward by befriending lighteyes and sharing trust with them which is a hugestep forward from hating them as a whole, sure he's far from perfect, but he's definitely improved on that front.

To be a "loving" person implies the ability to love anyone no matter their station, it implies the ability to feel empathy towards other people's plights even when they are ones we can personally relate to, it implies having the ability to put one self into someone's else shoes in order to better understand them instead of always jumping to hasty conclusions. It does not matter if Kaladin ever drops his prejudice against lighteyes, he isn't a "loving" individual, he isn't an "emphatic" person: he needs a rational before he can relate to anyone. 

An Edgedancer doesn't need a rational to feel empathy towards someone else, no matter their station. An Edgedancer will see someone's else plights and automatically relate even if this person has been an enemy five minutes ago, they will automatically drop their anger upon seeing the truth of their "enemies" actions. 

This is absolutely not Kaladin.

Edgedancer spoiler

Spoiler

Kaladin would have never hugged Nale. Never.  He would have left him there and walk away.

The fact part of his story involve him working on his issues doesn't mean he is suitable for the Edgedancer's order! It doesn't mean he suddenly becomes a "loving" individual, it just means he is attempting to be fairer judge of people. He is likely to always have trouble seeing worth into lighteyes, he will probably always struggle with this. He will probably always feel more inclined to protect/love small boys reminding him of Tien, like Renarin. This is just who he is, it is part of how he grew up: there is nothing wrong with it, but it also isn't inline with the Edgendancer behaviors as we were allowed to see within the Edgedancer novella.

1 hour ago, Starla said:

As I mentioned in my last post, I don’t see Kaladin’s tendency to help injured people having anything to do with additional radiant abilities, Edgedancer or otherwise. I’m saying that it’s his natural human instinct to to go into surgeon mode to help people around him who are wounded. I also don’t think it has anything to do with Tien, since it happened both before and after before Tien died. Remember the girl in Hearthstone he tried to save and couldn’t. He was devastated by that, just as he is devastated on the battlefield when he can’t save someone.

Since becoming Captain of Dalinar’s guard, he hasn’t had the time or opportunity to practice his surgeon skills. He's been insanely busy trying to tend all of his duties. That doesn’t mean he wouldn’t help a wounded person if the need presents itself. I don’t see him leaving someone bleeding on the ground to die out of “hatred." This instinct to heal requires a certain amount of selflessness and compassion for others, and I think he has it.

Kaladin hasn't had the opportunity to practice his skills as a surgeon because he decided he would not be a surgeon. He refused to join the existing team and to continue his learning because, unlike the common belief, Kaladin isn't quite a surgeon yet. He is an apprentice. He never completed his training. 

This being said, of course, Kaladin would not leave injured men on the ground: he would help them as best as he can, but it still does not make him an Edgedancer. 

What I meant when I said he needs people to be linked to Tien is with respect to his attitude towards them. He will not readily protect people nor like people nor care for people if they don't remind him of Tien. Part of his growth was him realizing he may need to protect people he hates. Being a Windrunners however doesn't imply he has to feel empathy towards everyone nor he should nurture the ability. He has to protect, so long as it is right. And this he does, perfectly. What he does not do is actually care about people he dislike and he needs a very strong rational to even start to think of individual lighteyed in a positive light, unless they remind him of Tien (Renarin, Elhokar).

That behavior is, as far as I can tell, completely incompatible with the Edgedancers oaths and behaviors.

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10 hours ago, maxal said:

All people Kaladin naturally feels inclined to protect: had he shown the same gratitude towards other people? No. See how he needed to have Elhokar be Dalinar's Tien in order to agree to protect him?

Elhokar's different, because he did something that detrimentally affected Kaladin (protecting Dalinar may be a better example, and no prior relationship was required there)..and even in the case of Elhokar, it looked like his realization there resulted in a fundamental shift in his worldview, not just one exception.

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@maxal

I agree with all your points above about Kaladin not being very loving. However, there can be variations on loving, just like there are variations on being honorable, just, resourceful and so on. For example, Adolin is seen as a potential Edgedancer. Would he have hugged Sadeas?

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11 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

@maxal

I agree with all your points above about Kaladin not being very loving. However, there can be variations on loving, just like there are variations on being honorable, just, resourceful and so on. For example, Adolin is seen as a potential Edgedancer. Would he have hugged Sadeas?

No because Sadeas has never repented. He didn't crumble on his knees suddenly feeling the weight of his actions. He didn't realized he was wrong all along or worst, he was duped. Had he done so, then I can't say what Adolin would have done, but he certainly would not have killed him. 

I fear people are mixing up concepts here... The idea of protecting those you hate or to love those who have slighted you comes with the concept of rightness. Protecting or loving Sadeas is plain wrong because the man is evil and would not change his ways. He was not duped nor manipulated. He isn't seeing the wrong in his actions: he believes he is perfectly justified in each and everyone of his behaviors. The concept of "loving" isn't you ought to love everyone, but you ought to see everyone for whom they are and not forget those being less fortunate than you. It is about compassion and empathy: Adolin has lots of it, but really Sadeas doesn't deserve nor does he appeal to any of it.

Adolin did nothing wrong. Kaladin isn't wrong either in wanting Amaram dealt with. The difference in between both characters is Adolin doesn't require a rational to empathize with other people, he doesn't need to tie them up to people he loved in order to love them in return like his father and Kaladin are doing. He can stop in his track and help those who are less fortunate than he is. Of course, Kaladin too would stop for bullied people, both behaviors are very close one to the other. It is easy for Kaladin to feel strongly for slaves and prostitutes: he is a slave himself. It is much, much harder when you are Prince Adolin Kholin to do the same thing. This being said, the major difference in between Kaladin and Adolin is Kaladin has the innate desire to protect people who are put in situations where they can't defend themselves whereas Adolin just can't allow people to be picked on for no valid reasons. Adolin's actions are drive by an innate ability to empathize whereas Kaladin's comes from an innate desire to protect.

Both are different and yet similar, but none of it means Kaladin is suited for the Edgendancers nor does it mean Adolin is suitable for the Windrunners.

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17 minutes ago, maxal said:

I fear people are mixing up concepts here... The idea of protecting those you hate or to love those who have slighted you comes with the concept of rightness. Protecting or loving Sadeas is plain wrong because the man is evil and would not change his ways.

 

1 hour ago, maxal said:

To be a "loving" person implies the ability to love anyone no matter their station, it implies the ability to feel empathy towards other people's plights even when they are ones we can personally relate to, it implies having the ability to put one self into someone's else shoes in order to better understand them instead of always jumping to hasty conclusions.

Those are two contradicting statements, what you are saying is that if Kaladin put on Lamaril's shoes and tried to understand him he would have felt pity for him(despite him being a selfish, spiteful scheming officer who would have loved Kal to have died). Are you implying that Adolin is above this? If he put on Sadeas shoes(who was equally selfish etc) should he have felt pity for him?

So lets look at the outcome, neither Kal nor Adolin felt pity for them, Kal got lamaril executed and Adolin murdered Sadeas, not much of a difference tbh. 

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59 minutes ago, StormblessDave said:

 

Those are two contradicting statements, what you are saying is that if Kaladin put on Lamaril's shoes and tried to understand him he would have felt pity for him(despite him being a selfish, spiteful scheming officer who would have loved Kal to have died). Are you implying that Adolin is above this? If he put on Sadeas shoes(who was equally selfish etc) should he have felt pity for him?

So lets look at the outcome, neither Kal nor Adolin felt pity for them, Kal got lamaril executed and Adolin murdered Sadeas, not much of a difference tbh. 

The difference is Adolin was privy to Sadeas's thoughts, he knew the man meant no good and would kill his family. Kaladin has no idea what Lamaril may or may not be thinking. Also, Adolin purposefully killed Sadeas in order to prevent additional death and destruction: Kaladin got Lamaril killed through no decision of his. It wasn't a planned outcome nor something he was looking forward to: it happened because of a failed strategy. Still, absolutely not Kaladin's fault, but being glad a man got hanged for a strategy you designed just because he sounded petty and would perhaps have been glad a troublesome slave died in battle doesn't strike me as an extraordinarily behavior. Perhaps understandable, but not what I would expect out of someone "loving".

What I am saying is Kaladin didn't have the information to make a valid statement onto Lamaril's persona. He saw him what, 5 minutes within his entire life? It may be Lamaril deserved to die, the problem is Kaladin doesn't have the perspective to claim he did whereas Adolin did.

That's the difference, but I see I will not win my argument: I just do not read Kaladin as someone "loving", "caring" and purposefully "healing". He has many qualities, but these aren't what shines through his persona. I strongly disagree with any theory wanting him to bond another spren.

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5 minutes ago, maxal said:

That's the difference, but I see I will not win my argument: I just do not read Kaladin as someone "loving", "caring" and purposefully "healing". He has many qualities, but these aren't what shines through his persona. I strongly disagree with any theory wanting him to bond another spren.

I respect your opinions, nice seeing all of your opinions even if they differ from mine :lol:

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1 hour ago, FiveLate said:

I think he could integrate his surgeon history into his current oaths easily enough.  He is going back to Hearthstone. He has vowed to protect even those he doesn't agree with.  Keeping someone from dying is protecting them from death.

Exactly. He can fit his skills within his current set of oaths. 

There's no need for him to attract another spren. He's already stolen the show in both books, we don't need to make him more special when we're getting 10 books for 10 characters in 10 orders. 

Kaladin is a Windrunner. Let's keep him that way. 

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26 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Kaladin is a Windrunner. Let's keep him that way.

Completely agree.  If anyone should get two orders, it should be someone like Szeth, who I am all for having more screen time, since he is just awesome when he's in action.  Reading a Szeth scene feels like watching a fight scene from a Chinese movie (think "Hero" or "Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon").

Edited by phoenix2563
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