metrication in the cosmere

[king of nowhere]

So, I've been thinking about units of measure in the cosmere. So far, every planet uses feet, steps and those kind of things, which is quite natural. the first units of measurement developed by man were linked to his body, and the first way to measure distance was counting the step, or putting one foot in front of the other, or using a cord and then rolling the cord around your arm. Thus an aphazard measurement system is created, where you can have several different units to measure the same concept (like terrestrial miles and nautical miles when you're always measuring a distance) and all those units are unrelated. When a world hits the scientifical revolution, it will develop a metric system, and it will adopt it; right now, the US is the only nation stil refusing to undergo the conversion, and even there metric units are the ones used for science.

So, when scadrial will hit the modern age, and even more in the future, we can expect it to use metrics. In fact, it should already have developed such a system in the wax and vayne era, but change is difficult to enforce; one big motivation to adopt the international system was overcoming national differences in measures, which in northern scadrial is not existing. But I definitely think it would add to realism if future scadrian books will use metrics.

what do you think?

[Brightlord M. Alhstrom]

4 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

So, I've been thinking about units of measure in the cosmere. So far, every planet uses feet, steps and those kind of things, which is quite natural. the first units of measurement developed by man were linked to his body, and the first way to measure distance was counting the step, or putting one foot in front of the other, or using a cord and then rolling the cord around your arm. Thus an aphazard measurement system is created, where you can have several different units to measure the same concept (like terrestrial miles and nautical miles when you're always measuring a distance) and all those units are unrelated. When a world hits the scientifical revolution, it will develop a metric system, and it will adopt it; right now, the US is the only nation stil refusing to undergo the conversion, and even there metric units are the ones used for science.

So, when scadrial will hit the modern age, and even more in the future, we can expect it to use metrics. In fact, it should already have developed such a system in the wax and vayne era, but change is difficult to enforce; one big motivation to adopt the international system was overcoming national differences in measures, which in northern scadrial is not existing. But I definitely think it would add to realism if future scadrian books will use metrics.

what do you think?

While I think that they will definitely standardize their measuring system, I'm not sure it will be a decimal one (10 millimeter in a centimeter, 10 decimeter in a meter, etc). They might even keep a system related to the British one (feet and inches), just standardized like the Americans have it. Or we might see a base-16 system adopted universaly (that could be really cool) because of how 16 is such an important number on Scadrial, in which case their "metric" system would follow a base-16 model, with 16 millimeters in a centimeter, etc, though with different names. However, we have to realise that just because something would make more sense in the actual universe, if it makes the book hard to understand, then i doubt Brandon will use it. So me might just see a decimal system anyways.

As for plot line wise, how it would happen? I suspect that worldhopping merchants might be the ones who do it, as they have much more of a need for a standardized measuring system. I suspect that a bunch of them will need in Sliverlight, make two systems (one for PR one for CR), then will each go to their respective worlds and work together to get it adopted throughout the cosmere.

[Farnsworth]

Roshar is supposed to advance as well, although not as far as Scadrial. Roshar would probably have a base ten number system, maybe Braize would have a base 9, and so on. That could lead to some interesting confusion when the societies meet.

[The One Who Connects]

On 8/3/2017 at 5:17 AM, king of nowhere said:

right now, the US is the only nation still refusing to undergo the conversion, and even there metric units are the ones used for science.

I'd like to talk to you about road signs in Britain (and apparently a lot of the world, that's a lot more countries than I expected)

Quote

Jason Ebenezer,

Answered Apr 27 2015

 

MPH is the unit for speed in Imperial Units ,an system primarily developed by the British Empire back in 1824.This system was implemented and followed by all of the British occupied areas (including India,Canada and the US).

 

But after the SI (Système International d'Unités) was introduced, almost all of the countries shifted from the Imperial system, including the UK. Though the official and recognized system in the UK is SI, some measurements (including mph, yards, inches...) are still widely used for road signs and measurements. "Old habits die hard" I guess.

That said, other countries like the US, Canada and UK and US territories; American Samoa, the Bahamas, Belize, British Virgin Islands, the Cayman Islands, Dominica, the Falkland Islands, Grenada, Guam, Burma, The N. Mariana Islands, Samoa, St. Lucia, St. Vincent & The Grenadines, St. Helena, St. Kitts & Nevis, Turks & Caicos Islands, the U.S. Virgin Islands, Antigua & Barbuda (although km are used for distance), and Puerto Rico (same as former) use mph to represent velocity or speed per hour. Source of countries:Internet.

On a further note all these countries(above mentioned) follow SI units (with a few exceptions). Currently the only countries in the world that do not follow the SI Units are the US, Myanmar (aka as Burma formerly) and Liberia.

---

As for how such a system would arise, Maelstrom is right. Consider that Khriss uses a Cosmere Standard for planetary weight and gravity. She likely uses a cosmere standard year as well. Silverlight and the Worldhopping Community is gonna be behind any push for a universal measuring system.

I do like Farnsworth's suggestion that Roshar would be a base-10 system(metric), but other worlds might use different numbers. Imperial Units are a base-12 system(12 inches per foot), so a base-16 wouldn't be that out there in my opinion, and Brandon could make it work. As long as he doesn't go into too much detail about it in the books, we could understand "30 feet," even if that doesn't exactly translate into 30 ft for us. A year on Roshar doesn't translate into a year for us, but we don't get confused about that, now do we?

[Brightlord M. Alhstrom]

20 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

I'd like to talk to you about road signs in Britain (and apparently a lot of the world, that's a lot more countries than I expected)

---

As for how such a system would arise, Maelstrom is right. Consider that Khriss uses a Cosmere Standard for planetary weight and gravity. She likely uses a cosmere standard year as well. Silverlight and the Worldhopping Community is gonna be behind any push for a universal measuring system.

I do like Farnsworth's suggestion that Roshar would be a base-10 system(metric), but other worlds might use different numbers. Imperial Units are a base-12 system(12 inches per foot), so a base-16 wouldn't be that out there in my opinion, and Brandon could make it work. As long as he doesn't go into too much detail about it in the books, we could understand "30 feet," even if that doesn't exactly translate into 30 ft for us. A year on Roshar doesn't translate into a year for us, but we don't get confused about that, now do we?

One thing to mention, I wouldn't trust that article completely. I'm Canadian and we definitely do not use the mile. The only remains of the imperial system is when measuring height/weight and food quantities. (cups/tablespoons). There might be a couple others, but they are isolated.

[The One Who Connects]

7 minutes ago, Lord Maelstrom said:

I'm Canadian and we definitely do not use the mile.

Bear in mind that the article is also 2 years old, when times may have changed. For example, he mentioned Samoa as using mph, whereas Samoa actually uses both.

His statements are also simplified, as was the case in Canada. I looked up the Wikipedia entry for "Miles per Hour" earlier today, and it said that the Canadian rail system uses mph,^[22] while roads do not.

[Beast_c_a_t]

I just want to point out that SI units are the official US standard(so far as that being the standard NIST uses), and the American Standard Inch has always been defined as 25.4mm, since the British couldn't make an accurate copy of the Imperial Inch. We still use the inch mostly due to the economics (retooling a factory is vary expensive) and ease of use (it's a lot easier to pace off 10ft then 2.54m).

[Calderis]

4 hours ago, Beast_c_a_t said:

I just want to point out that SI units are the official US standard(so far as that being the standard NIST uses), and the American Standard Inch has always been defined as 25.4mm, since the British couldn't make an accurate copy of the Imperial Inch. We still use the inch mostly due to the economics (retooling a factory is vary expensive) and ease of use (it's a lot easier to pace off 10ft then 2.54m).

And because we make a lot of money of people hiring "specialists" for the design and implementation of items that are built to US standard measurements in other countries. 

I would think it's ridiculous, but I work in environments that I see the same thing happen in reverse with foreign "specialists" doing the exact same work as me, but with metric tools. 

Buying a different socket set is hard apparently. 

[Orlion Blight]

Distance is relative. So, on Earth, the meter was developed first and foremost as being "one ten millioneth the distance between the North Pole and the Equator." The idea being that using the Earth as the frame of reference instead of, say, a king's foot, anyone smart and able to would calculate the same distance anywhere in the world. 

What turns out to be helpful with the metric system in science is the conversion between units, but that's been covered all ready here. Between planetary systems, units would still need to be converted, and I imagine units in the Shadesmar would be different as well. 

[king of nowhere]

2 hours ago, TheOrlionThatComesBefore said:

Distance is relative. So, on Earth, the meter was developed first and foremost as being "one ten millioneth the distance between the North Pole and the Equator." The idea being that using the Earth as the frame of reference instead of, say, a king's foot, anyone smart and able to would calculate the same distance anywhere in the world. 

What turns out to be helpful with the metric system in science is the conversion between units, but that's been covered all ready here. Between planetary systems, units would still need to be converted, and I imagine units in the Shadesmar would be different as well. 

It is a constant of science to go for further and further refining of your measuring units. Originally the human body was the reference, because it was something everyone could relate to. When there was a need for more accurate units, they started using the planet, and when they refined the universal constants, they started to use those as references (the meter and second were once defined as a fraction of the day or the earth's diameter, but now they are referred in terms of number of frequency of a specific subatomic phenomenon and distance travelled by the light in the vacuum). Unfortunately they failed to redefine the second as 1/100000 of a day, and an hour as 10000 seconds, it would have helped with time calculations.

However, what I'm referring to is the general streamlining of units of measurements, in three aspects

1) Make your complex units of measurement derive from the fundamental ones. You don't define energy as the amount of heat needed to heat a specific amunt of a specific substance; rather, you define it on the basis that energy = force * lenght, and force = mass * acceleration, and acceleration is length divided time squared. So energy is mass times lenght squared divided time squared, and you define it in terms of your basic units of lenght, mass and time. It saves a lot of hassle in the conversions. Of course different planets will pick different fundamental units, but they should eventually reach the point where they start using those units to define all others.

2) Make all units and subunits multiples of the same number, generally the one you use as base for counting (10 on our planet). There are 12 inches in a feet, 3 feet for a yard, 22 yards to a chain, 10 chains to a furlong, 8 furlongs to a mile, and 3 miles to a league. All those units arose for historical reasons, hence the hapazard relations between them. All those units should become multiples of the same number, probably 10 since no planet is using a 12-based numerical system.

3) Use consistently the same unit to measure the same quantity. A lenght is a lenght, and it is always measured with the lenght's unit of measurement. Maybe those working in the field will find it more comfortable to use fathoms for depth, nautical miles for distance traveled over sea, chains and furlongs to measure farmland. It made perfect sense, as those units were born specifically to measure in those field. Unfortunately, it means that people working in a field have no idea what people working in another field are measuring.

So, those are the three processes I am expecting to see in the cosmere. Especially on scadrial, which is already fairly well advanced by now.

[EmeraldPaladin]

We know that there is already a standardized system used by the City of Silverlight, Khriss talks about "cosmere standard" measurements in many of the essays included in AU, including cosmere standard planet size, gravitation, and feet. I think that with the technological advances that Scadrial is going through, there is a fairly likely chance they will discover Silverlight and the Worldhoppers, and adopt the cosmere standard measuring system. In any case, a standard system exists and could potentially be adopted by everyone in the future.

Edited September 14, 2017 by gaberz24

[Brightlord M. Alhstrom]

2 hours ago, gaberz24 said:

We know that there is already a standardized system used by the City of Silverlight, Khriss talks about "cosmere standard" measurements in many of the essays included in AU, including cosmere standard planet size, gravitation, and feet. I think that with the technological advances that Scadrial is going through, there is a fairly likely chance they will discover Silverlight and the Worldhoppers, and adopt the cosmere standard measuring system. In any case, a standard system exists and could potentially be adopted by everyone in the future.

I agree that at the very least, when Scadrial becomes widely Cosmere aware, that they will adopt Silverlight's cosmere standard. What I'm wondering is if the worldhoppers at Silverlight might find ways to push the cosmere standard into the different societies prematurely.