Homeworld of the Ones Above

[Honorless he/him]

9 hours ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

Yeah but I don't want people getting mad at me for writing this one off.

Or this one.  Brandon might not have been thinking about precise release dates.

On one hand these are among my favourite options, on the other hand, we have to eliminate options somehow.

I wouldn't worry about WoB inconsistencies here. I don't think Brandon will consider unpublished works. As for Second, Third or possibly Fourth of the Sun, we've never seen the planets or their inhabitants, we only came to know of their existence via the Arcanum Unbounded, which only released in 2016

[Aon Tia she/her]

Based on the discussion so far,

So i think we can narrow down the possibilities a little.

1) Roshar: They have the ingredients for FTL and the way Ones above are described is very Rosharan and the famous Chouta comment alongwith the 

2) Nalthis: new magic system with a lot of possibilities

3) Sel: already have fast travel with Aontai, once they deal with the region-locked Dor, they are a strong possibility

4) Scadrial : I don’t like this option much but it is here because apparently their magic system can have FTL, which all can by the way, but Mistborn era 4 is space era based and @ ookla the prolific likes Scadrial as an option very much. 

Threnody i think we can safely rule out based on : As Honorless has already quoted:

Quote

I checked and the earliest WoB was in 2014, before the release of Shadows for Silence in the Forests of Hell, while Sixth of the Dusk released in the same year but a bit later. So, Threnody and other planets in the Drominad System are also out. I don't think think Taldain should be counted either as White Sand graphic novels weren't out yet only the semi-canonical prose version, though an inter-Autonomy planetary scale conflict would have been interesting. Only Scadrial, Roshar, Sel and Nalthis are available as options

Taldain also as we know that it is locked by Autonomy and has been isolated

Silverlight also is not exactly a planet... As Honorless has already quoted:

Quote

he uses the word "planet" to describe the where the Ones Above belong, so places like Silverlight and other Worldhopper orgs based in the Cognitive are out too

 

Edited December 31, 2019 by The traveller

[Honorless he/him]

7 minutes ago, The traveller said:

4) Sel: already have fast travel with Aontai, once they deal with the region-locked Dor, they are a strong possibility

It's Aon Tia 

Edited December 31, 2019 by Honorless

[Aon Tia she/her]

16 minutes ago, Honorless said:

It's Aon Tia 

Oops sorry!

[Honorless he/him]

On 12/20/2019 at 0:43 PM, Honorless said:

I checked and the earliest WoB was a bit before the release of Shadows for Silence in the Forests of Hell. So, Threnody might also not be a valid candidate. The other planets in the Drominad System are also out as they first got a mention in the Arcanum Unbounded essays. I don't think think Taldain should be counted either as White Sand graphic novels weren't out yet only the semi-canonical prose version, though an inter-Autonomy planetary scale conflict would have been interesting. Only Scadrial, Roshar, Sel and Nalthis are available as options

I've edited the above quote for clarification: Shadows for Silence in the Forests of Hell was published in a separate anthology (called Dangerous Women) before single release or being collected in the Arcanum Unbounded. (The same goes for Sixth of the Dusk, which was published in the anthology Shadows Beneath)

On 12/21/2019 at 10:48 AM, Honorless said:

On one hand these are among my favourite options, on the other hand, we have to eliminate options somehow.

I wouldn't worry about WoB inconsistencies here. I don't think Brandon will consider unpublished works. As for Second, Third or possibly Fourth of the Sun, we've never seen the planets or their inhabitants, we only came to know of their existence via the Arcanum Unbounded, which only released in 2016

 

Okay, I'm considering the above mentioned possibilities safely discarded. This leaves us with four options, also stated above.

The hints we have so far are:

1) The Ones Above travelled via the Physical Realm

2) Something prevents them from simply conquering or directly dominating the people of First of the Sun

3) It's unlikely that they would arrange for one of their own to choke and die. Faking one's death can be considered to be an ability present in the Ones Above or a subsection of the Ones Above

Edited January 25, 2020 by Honorless

[Aon Tia she/her]

2 hours ago, Honorless said:

The Ones Above travelled via the Physical Realm

Makes me think of Sel

2 hours ago, Honorless said:

Something prevents them from simply conquering or directly dominating the people of First of the Sun

Makes me think they are from Roshar, as discussed before at length

2 hours ago, Honorless said:

It's unlikely that they would arrange for one of their own to choke and die. Faking one's death can be considered to be an ability present in the Ones Above or a subsection of the Ones Above

Kandra! There could be a kandra on the team from Scadrial... easiest way of faking a dead body. 

[Karger he/him]

3 hours ago, The traveller said:

Makes me think of Sel

Why?

3 hours ago, The traveller said:

Makes me think they are from Roshar, as discussed before at length

And I disagreed at length.

3 hours ago, The traveller said:

Kandra! There could be a kandra on the team from Scadrial... easiest way of faking a dead body. 

Or an acquired lifeless or a really good forgery of a corpse via bloodsealing or just an elantrian with the right Aon or a really well done fabrail...

[Aon Tia she/her]

1 hour ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

And I disagreed at length.

A disagreement that was full of single argument made repeatedly. A lot of people were in disagreement with your disagreement. 

 

1 hour ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

Or an acquired lifeless or a really good forgery of a corpse via bloodsealing or just an elantrian with the right Aon or a really well done fabrail...

Well that was the single reason I was willing to consider Scadrial but now your argument makes me think that Scadrial should be demoted to 4th number on the list! 
 

As to why it made me think of Sel I thought it was fairly obvious but here let me explain. I think seeing as the CR of Sel is most dangerous to travel, Sel people have the best reason to look for a means of inter-space travel via physical realm. And they already have Aon Tia using which they can travel near ftl in physical realm. All they have to do is find a way to deal with the region lock on dor 

Edited December 31, 2019 by The traveller

[Karger he/him]

3 minutes ago, The traveller said:

Which was baseless and full of single argument made repeatedly 

Winces.  Can we please not go back to that?  Neither of us stayed entirely rational and I kind of wanted to bypass that issue.

4 minutes ago, The traveller said:

Well that was the single reason I was willing to consider Scadrial but now your argument makes me think that Scadrial should be demoted to 4th number on the list! 

I like to be objective in my arguments.

5 minutes ago, The traveller said:

As to why it made me think of Sel I thought it was fairly obvious but here let me explain. I think seeing as the CR of Sel is most dangerous to travel

I thought that was what you were referencing but I wanted to make sure.

5 minutes ago, The traveller said:

. And they already have Aon Tia using which they can travel near ftl in physical realm. All they have to do is find a way to deal with the region lock on dor 

Or just not deal with it and get used to being the most OP god people in the universe.

[Aon Tia she/her]

1 minute ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

Winces.  Can we please not go back to that?  Neither of us stayed entirely rational and I kind of wanted to bypass that issue.

Yes yes agreed 

2 minutes ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

I like to be objective in my arguments.

Ahem Ohk well but I still think that kandra is the best way to accomplish not killing someone and still have a dead body. Plus it allows infiltration so that is a bonus ! 
 

4 minutes ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

I thought that was what you were referencing but I wanted to make sure.

Yup 

 

5 minutes ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

Or just not deal with it and get used to being the most OP god people in the universe.

They will deal with it and would want to explore outside. The elantrians earlier were not isolationist they not be so now either. Plus with a perpendicularity sitting right at their heads I highly doubt they will not be curious! 
Also I am curious what the elantrians diaspora upon learning that elantris has been healed do? Won’t they want to come back and meet these new elantrians?!!

[Karger he/him]

1 hour ago, The traveller said:

They will deal with it and would want to explore outside. The elantrians earlier were not isolationist they not be so now either. Plus with a perpendicularity sitting right at their heads I highly doubt they will not be curious! 

This is thousands of years in the future.  Their culture could become super xenophobic for all we know.  As far as they know the perpendicularity is a gateway to death.

1 hour ago, The traveller said:

Ahem Ohk well but I still think that kandra is the best way to accomplish not killing someone and still have a dead body. Plus it allows infiltration so that is a bonus ! 

Like to is not equivalent with always am.  I also think a lifeless would be a better option as the kandra might have to wait around for years or else be otherwise compromised if the primitives decide to conduct an autopsy.

1 hour ago, The traveller said:

Also I am curious what the elantrians diaspora upon learning that elantris has been healed do? Won’t they want to come back and meet these new elantrians?!!

I do not think that is why the elantrains left.  It seems like a normal part of their life cycle to leave the physical realm behind.

Edited December 31, 2019 by Ookla the Prolific

[Honorless he/him]

10 hours ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

I do not think that is why the elantrains left.  It seems like a normal part of their life cycle to leave the physical realm behind.

It does make sense that they might tire of their immortality and want release.

 

Let's checkmark for the characteristics listed

1) The Ones Above travelled via the Physical Realm

The Selish would have the strongest motivation to develop a method of travel via the Physical. Both Scadrian and Rosharan magics have been confirmed by Brandon to be suited to space travel. Nalthian magic is still in its infancy in a way, so we don't know its full capabilities.

2) Something prevents them from simply conquering or directly dominating the people of First of the Sun

This something could be a Shard like Harmony for Scadrians or social mores, as @The traveller suggests for the Rosharans. 

3) It's unlikely that they would arrange for one of their own to choke and die. Faking one's death can be considered to be an ability present in the Ones Above or a subsection of the Ones Above

The Kandra and the Lifeless are popular candidates. All of the Shardworlds have magics that might facilitate this. Selish potions from Hrovell, Stormlight might also be able to facilitate a dead act or a Gasper Ferring (though that last part is a bit contentious, as they can't mask their heartbeat,... unless they were wearing spacesuits or something) 

[Aon Tia she/her]

1 hour ago, Honorless said:

The Kandra and the Lifeless are popular candidates. All of the Shardworlds have magics that might facilitate this. Selish potions from Hrovell, Stormlight might also be able to facilitate a dead act or a Gasper Ferring (though that last part is a bit contentious, as they can't mask their heartbeat,... unless they were wearing spacesuits or something) 

But with kandra, along with faking a body they get an added opportunity to infiltrate the natives

[Karger he/him]

9 hours ago, Honorless said:

This something could be a Shard like Harmony for Scadrians or social mores, as @The traveller suggests for the Rosharans. 

If there exist several space faring planets then it could also imply that this was an agreement after a war or conflict that involved two or more powers fighting over colonial possessions.

8 hours ago, The traveller said:

But with kandra, along with faking a body they get an added opportunity to infiltrate the natives

The kandra is also putting themselves at incredible risk.  I think no matter where they are from a lifeless or forgery is their best option as it does not put an actual life in danger and assuming an interplanetary economy both would be available commercially.

[Aon Tia she/her]

16 minutes ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

The kandra is also putting themselves at incredible risk.  I think no matter where they are from a lifeless or forgery is their best option as it does not put an actual life in danger and assuming an interplanetary economy both would be available commercially.

What can even kill a kandra? The only time we know a kandra really died was when tensoon killed oresuer 

 

[Karger he/him]

45 minutes ago, The traveller said:

What can even kill a kandra

If they had conducted an autopsy and found the spike the hypothetical kandra would revert to Mistraith.

[Honorless he/him]

36 minutes ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

If they had conducted an autopsy and found the spike the hypothetical kandra would revert to Mistraith.

I don't think you're supposed to do an autopsy on an ambassador, without permission from their nation, when they (seemingly) died in front of you, and the ambassador in question is from another world, who are much more technologically developed, spacefaring people who are teaching your world the ropes but you're also kind of stealing from.

You're supposed to give their body back and hope it doesn't cause a diplomatic crisis

Edited January 1, 2020 by Honorless

[Karger he/him]

1 hour ago, Honorless said:

I don't think you're supposed to do an autopsy on an ambassador, without permission from their nation, when they (seemingly) died in front of you, and the ambassador in question is from another world, who are much more technologically developed, spacefaring people who are teaching your world the ropes but you're also kind of stealing from.

You're supposed to give their body back and hope it doesn't cause a diplomatic crisis

At the same time if this were a movie this is where the evil scientist people funded by the military show up and decide to take that guy apart then come up with lies about how they must cremate dead people so that the demons don't get angry.

[Aon Tia she/her]

7 hours ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

If they had conducted an autopsy and found the spike the hypothetical kandra would revert to Mistraith.

 

7 hours ago, Honorless said:

I don't think you're supposed to do an autopsy on an ambassador, without permission from their nation, when they (seemingly) died in front of you, and the ambassador in question is from another world, who are much more technologically developed, spacefaring people who are teaching your world the ropes but you're also kind of stealing from.

You're supposed to give their body back and hope it doesn't cause a diplomatic crisis

I think I am missing something here.... 

I thought they found the device and the body but the ambassador did not die in front of them! 
My impression was that kandra came on the planet Left an extra pile of bones somewhere, then introduced himself as an ambassador, eventually died alone in his room or somewhere and left the device behind! 
 

so when he died, he merely left that body and changed the bones to become someone new and infiltrate the natives. 
 

remember like there was a dead body left behind in the venture house when tensoon replied oresuer!? 
 

In that case, our kandra will have taken his spikes with him! Natives would not even know there is an intruder / imposter among them, let alone figure out how to  kill Him!!!!

[Karger he/him]

25 minutes ago, The traveller said:

I thought they found the device and the body but the ambassador did not die in front of them! 

Vathi says he "choked while eating" and that the emissary was "sent to work with them."  To me at least this implies that the emissary showed up talked for a while choked during his meal and died.  Vathi also says that this experience and knowledge "changed how she viewed them" which implies direct knowledge or a firsthand account.

 

[Aon Tia she/her]

18 minutes ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

Vathi says he "choked while eating" and that the emissary was "sent to work with them."  To me at least this implies that the emissary showed up talked for a while choked during his meal and died.  Vathi also says that this experience and knowledge "changed how she viewed them" which implies direct knowledge or a firsthand account.

 

Ok thanks. So choking and dying seems very mundane and almost like it was feigned. 
I think he died (Pretended to die) in front of them, I am sure a kandra can really stop breathing and heartbeats, it’s not like they really need all that to remain alive, right? 
They are not going to conduct an autopsy immediately! May be they sent a servant to put his body in some room, may be his room.
He used the opportunity to change into another body. May be he killed the servant keeping guard of his body and is now impersonating him. 

[Karger he/him]

15 minutes ago, The traveller said:

am sure a kandra can really stop breathing and heartbeats

We know they can which is why I have not ruled them out as a possibility.

16 minutes ago, The traveller said:

They are not going to conduct an autopsy immediately! May be they sent a servant to put his body in some room, may be his room.
He used the opportunity to change into another body. May be he killed the servant keeping guard of his body and is now impersonating him. 

My point is that him faking his death was clearly planed carefully.  Going into this the Ones would not know how the people they are trying to fool are going to react.  Risking the life of a valued member of your team(likely even more valued if scadrain) who might give away your plans if anything goes wrong is something a planer would work extremely hard to avoid.  As such I think regardless of their origin I think getting an advanced lifeless or bloodsealed individual is smarter and as such more likely.

[Honorless he/him]

2 hours ago, The traveller said:

I think I am missing something here.... 

I thought they found the device and the body but the ambassador did not die in front of them! 
My impression was that kandra came on the planet Left an extra pile of bones somewhere, then introduced himself as an ambassador, eventually died alone in his room or somewhere and left the device behind! 
 

so when he died, he merely left that body and changed the bones to become someone new and infiltrate the natives. 
 

remember like there was a dead body left behind in the venture house when tensoon replied oresuer!? 
 

In that case, our kandra will have taken his spikes with him! Natives would not even know there is an intruder / imposter among them, let alone figure out how to  kill Him!!!!

He choked to death while eating. Vathi said it changed the way she viewed them

Edit: ninja'ed 

Edited January 2, 2020 by Honorless

[SirWolfe]

@Honorless Maybe the ambassador was a cadmium ferring, and was tapping. So he could stop breathing, but still stay alive. Then all he would have to do is pretend to be dead and wait a short time until his body was taken away by his team.

[Honorless he/him]

36 minutes ago, SirWolfe said:

@Honorless Maybe the ambassador was a cadmium ferring, and was tapping. So he could stop breathing, but still stay alive. Then all he would have to do is pretend to be dead and wait a short time until his body was taken away by his team.

I did consider it:

On 1/1/2020 at 1:34 PM, Honorless said:

It does make sense that they might tire of their immortality and want release.

 

Let's checkmark for the characteristics listed

1) The Ones Above travelled via the Physical Realm

The Selish would have the strongest motivation to develop a method of travel via the Physical. Both Scadrian and Rosharan magics have been confirmed by Brandon to be suited to space travel. Nalthian magic is still in its infancy in a way, so we don't know its full capabilities.

2) Something prevents them from simply conquering or directly dominating the people of First of the Sun

This something could be a Shard like Harmony for Scadrians or social mores, as @The traveller suggests for the Rosharans. 

3) It's unlikely that they would arrange for one of their own to choke and die. Faking one's death can be considered to be an ability present in the Ones Above or a subsection of the Ones Above

The Kandra and the Lifeless are popular candidates. All of the Shardworlds have magics that might facilitate this. Selish potions from Hrovell, Stormlight might also be able to facilitate a dead act or a Gasper Ferring (though that last part is a bit contentious, as they can't mask their heartbeat,... unless they were wearing spacesuits or something)