[OB] on gavilar confirmed son of honor

[Pattern he/him]

Now that the final version of the prologue is out, I think we can say that Gavilar does not come out better than in the transcripts of the readings.

I wouldn't call Gavilars motives "religious" though. For me his speech sounds more like that of a somewhat bored-with-ordinary-life megalomaniac. He wants to unite his kingdom - or perhaps all of Roshar - and safe it also for the time after his rule. That's the megalomanic part, which is not so uncommon and perhaps not the real problem. To achieve this, he wants the Desolations to return, to create a common enemy - the Listeners as voidbringers. Humans shall be Radiant, the Listeners shall be vibrant again. The current state where most of the Listeners are without form and most humans have no surgebinding abilities is just too boring for king Gavilar.

Better to burn out than fade away.

Perhaps Gavilar is right though. The relative peace on Roshar is dearly bought with crippling the potential of both humans and listeners alike. The Parshendi with their remaining forms of non-power are perhaps closest to what they should be. Parshmen as premium-slaves are an abomination though. They should get back their forms. Not the forms of power - with them they are still slaves, slaves of Odium instead of humans - but the free forms the Parshendi have, plus artform and the like.

So Gavilar's feeling the world is not right does not look farfetched for me. His means reaching his goals I don't approve and Szeth killing him might have delayed the desolation for six or seven more years.

By the way, the desolation coming anyway shows how good a plan there was laid (by Odium?). Showing Gavilar how to make the world vibrant and magical again led him to planning to release the crucial spren necessary for the listener transformations (which cannot be all there is to it, since the Parshendi still could change their forms with limited choices). Success would mean an impending desolation. The murder of Gavilar to prevent him from doing so delayed the desolation for seven years, but the resulting War of Reckoning brought the Parshendi so close to extinction they got desperate, so they released their old gods themselves (probably not with the same means Gavilar had planned). The desolation comes anyways.

As Taravangian said correctly, the desolation needs no usher. It can and it will sit where it wishes.

A detail missing in the released prologue is Gavilar mentioning a second black sphere. The casual reader might think there is only one now and will stuble over an incontinuity: Gavilar gives Szeth an ominous black sphere while taking his last breaths. Now he gives the ominous black sphere to Eshonai before he is attacked (without the "take it, I have another one"). Or is there now indeed only one black sphere, which somehow comes back to Gavilar in the time between his talk to Eshonai and the following assassination? The timing for this should be very difficult and the Parshendi would have no good reason to give it back at all (my guess is Venli somehow gets a hold on it and uses the sphere for herself somehow).

 

[Mason Wheeler]

On 7/7/2017 at 7:27 AM, WhiteLeeopard said:

I'm not saying I don't believe there could be less honorable, or even evil Radiants, as I do, but I still believe (or want to believe?) they were an anomaly and not the norm.

Didn't one of Dalinar's visions, the one with Nohadon, specifically include a complaint that several of the spren types were less discerning than the Honorspren, and they were picking up some people of disreputable character to be Radiants?

Edited August 23, 2017 by Mason Wheeler

[ChazBolt]

On 8/23/2017 at 5:52 PM, Mason Wheeler said:

Didn't one of Dalinar's visions, the one with Nohadon, specifically include a complaint that several of the spren types were less discerning than the Honorspren, and they were picking up some people of disreputable character to be Radiants?

@Mason Wheeler i dont think this means "evil Radiants" or Void-Radiants. it just means that the various spren that are associated with other factions of the KR are not as picky to be scrupulous people. they could be thieves or other lowlifes but still compliment the attributes of that Radiant. 

 

On 8/23/2017 at 4:09 AM, Pattern said:

Now that the final version of the prologue is out, I think we can say that Gavilar does not come out better than in the transcripts of the readings.

I wouldn't call Gavilars motives "religious" though. For me his speech sounds more like that of a somewhat bored-with-ordinary-life megalomaniac. He wants to unite his kingdom - or perhaps all of Roshar - and safe it also for the time after his rule. That's the megalomanic part, which is not so uncommon and perhaps not the real problem. To achieve this, he wants the Desolations to return, to create a common enemy - the Listeners as voidbringers. Humans shall be Radiant, the Listeners shall be vibrant again. The current state where most of the Listeners are without form and most humans have no surgebinding abilities is just too boring for king Gavilar.

Better to burn out than fade away.

Perhaps Gavilar is right though. The relative peace on Roshar is dearly bought with crippling the potential of both humans and listeners alike. The Parshendi with their remaining forms of non-power are perhaps closest to what they should be. Parshmen as premium-slaves are an abomination though. They should get back their forms. Not the forms of power - with them they are still slaves, slaves of Odium instead of humans - but the free forms the Parshendi have, plus artform and the like.

@Pattern my question then is, why did the Stormfather send him the visions in the first place? If there was full peace then there wouldnt be a need for him to get the visions. What led him to do these things was the visions, so without them nothing would have begun. This leads me to think that something was already wrong and the Stormfather sensed that and found it necessary to start the process of recreating the KR. Gavilar took the only way any Alethi knew to unite people, through battle, but i dont think he knew how to start that war or what the true problem was. He knew a new storm needed to come in order to bring out the KR and i think he knew it would come from his death.

Edited August 25, 2017 by ChazBolt

[Calderis he/him]

4 minutes ago, ChazBolt said:

He knew a new storm needed to come in order to bring out the KR and i think he knew it would come from his death.

His last moments alive make it very clear that dying was not his plan. 

[ChazBolt]

Just now, Calderis said:

His last moments alive make it very clear that dying was not his plan. 

True.

However, he knew he would not be around for the whole war.

Quote

"My people need to be united, and I need an empire that won’t simply turn to infighting once I am gone.” - Oathbringer, Prologue 

I think this strongly implies that he had a plan to die at some point to further the cause, even if not as soon as he did. 

[Calderis he/him]

2 minutes ago, ChazBolt said:

I think this strongly implies that he had a plan to die at some point to further the cause, even if not as soon as he did

Eh, I think he just studied the same things Dalinar mentions in book. That the first Heir's reign is the most turbulent time for a kingdom. 

What's the point of uniting everyone by force if they're just going to tear apart after you die? 

I think that was thinking much more long term. 

Edited August 25, 2017 by Calderis

[ChazBolt]

2 minutes ago, Calderis said:

What's the point of uniting everyone by force if they're just going to tear apart after you die? 

Well that would be why he wanted to give them a common foe, or have the KR back to keep everyone together. He thought that currently the only reason everyone was together was because of him, and he knew there needed to be more of a reason for them to stick together. 

[Calderis he/him]

Just now, ChazBolt said:

Well that would be why he wanted to give them a common foe, or have the KR back to keep everyone together. He thought that currently the only reason everyone was together was because of him, and he knew there needed to be more of a reason for them to stick together. 

None of which requires him dying.

The longer he could have remained in power, the more stable he would have made things for Elhokar, and to build what he saw in the visions, and presumably, to continue gaining information from the visions. 

His death did not serve his plans. 

[Mason Wheeler]

17 minutes ago, ChazBolt said:

@Mason Wheeler i dont think this means "evil Radiants" or Void-Radiants. it just means that the various spren that are associated with other factions of the KR are not as picky to be scrupulous people. they could be thieves or other lowlifes but still compliment the attributes of that Radiant.

Yes, that's exactly what I meant by that: unscrupulous Radiants have been a problem for a very long time.

[ChazBolt]

Just now, Mason Wheeler said:

Yes, that's exactly what I meant by that: unscrupulous Radiants have been a problem for a very long time.

Is this something that is capable of being solved or is inherent to some of the Radiants though? As 'good' as Lift is, she is still a thief and a miscreant. Is she going to be a problem?

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

I don't think Gavilar planned on dying. That been said, I find him to be a short sighted idiot.

Problem: I have reforged the kingdom of Alethkar, the worst part for a kingdom is the heir's reign, how to keep the kingdom intact?

Solution of average person: Lets train the heir from the cradle to be a wonderful king, strong, respected, benevolent, fair and beloved., summoning the best warriors, commanders, ardents, scholars and advisors from all over Roshar. 

Solution of Gavilar: lets start the destruction of the world so my kingdom will be forced to stay together, what does it matter if 90% of my people and most likely my entire family will die in the process.

[ChazBolt]

Just now, WhiteLeeopard said:

I don't think Gavilar planned on dying. That been said, I find him to be a short sighted idiot.

Problem: I have reforged the kingdom of Alethkar, the worst part for a kingdom is the heir's reign, how to keep the kingdom intact?

Solution of average person: Lets train the heir from the cradle to be a wonderful king, strong, respected, benevolent, fair and beloved., summoning the best warriors, commanders, ardents, scholars and advisors from all over Roshar. 

Solution of Gavilar: lets start the destruction of the world so my kingdom will be forced to stay together, what does it matter if 90% of my people and most likely my entire family will die in the process.

Heres my problem with this though. Why was the Stormfather already sending him visions then?

You want to blame Gavilar for suddenly deciding "well, how do i keep this kingdom together? War!" when he was already being influenced by the Stormfather.

What triggered the Stormfather to start sending him visions? Something was already wrong and the KR were needed back. Gavilar didn't need to train a heir, he needed to bring back an ancient order which was last known to exist during times of war.  

[Calderis he/him]

17 minutes ago, Mason Wheeler said:

Yes, that's exactly what I meant by that: unscrupulous Radiants have been a problem for a very long time.

That really depends on your definition of unscrupulous. That the one word I would think can't describe a Radiant. 

Rather than just rant I'll just link the thread, but good is most definitely not a requirement of Radiancy. 

Edit: @ChazBolt the Stormfather sending Gavilar the visions has no bearing on how he decided to interpret them. 

Quote

Q: The visions Dalinar gets in WoK always struck me as odd - you don't just look at the past, you are able to act within this experience. Now we know that Gavilar was also on the way to being a Bondsmith - was he acting in a different way? Were the visions only basically the same but different in the end depending on the personal reactions? Is this something like a test?
A: He did see the same visions. They were the same thing. But... I will say that his reaction to them were very different from Dalinar's reactions to them. Anyway it was difficult for the Stormfather without a bond to determine/to tell the difference between very easily. When Spren are bonded, they gain a lot more ability to understand the world around then, so you'll find out soon more stuff about this in the third book.

Gavilar was receiving the visions, but he was not otherwise influenced yet. 

Edited August 25, 2017 by Calderis

[Mason Wheeler]

12 minutes ago, ChazBolt said:

Is this something that is capable of being solved or is inherent to some of the Radiants though? As 'good' as Lift is, she is still a thief and a miscreant. Is she going to be a problem?

Waitasec.  We've got a Radiant who's a thief and a spy, whose power literally runs on lies, who is highly-placed in the royal family of Alethkar and among the organization of the new Knights Radiant, and spent the whole second book learning to use her powers to deceive people and be a more effective spy.  This person is being blackmailed by an evil group whose interests are very much not aligned with Dalinar's mission to unite humanity and save them from the desolation to come...

...and you're worried about Lift?!?

[ChazBolt]

2 minutes ago, Mason Wheeler said:

Waitasec.  We've got a Radiant who's a thief and a spy, whose power literally runs on lies, who is highly-placed in the royal family of Alethkar and among the organization of the new Knights Radiant, and spent the whole second book learning to use her powers to deceive people and be a more effective spy.  This person is being blackmailed by an evil group whose interests are very much not aligned with Dalinar's mission to unite humanity and save them from the desolation to come...

...and you're worried about Lift?!?

Im not worried about Lift, her actions are just a bit more simple than Shallan's to explain.

 

EDIT: also, being a spy doesnt make you "unscrupulous" or "disreputable" 

Edited August 25, 2017 by ChazBolt

[Mason Wheeler]

5 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Anyway it was difficult for the Stormfather without a bond to determine/to tell the difference between very easily.

To tell the difference between what very easily?  That's kind of crucial to the point here, and it makes this answer from Brandon difficult to understand.

[ChazBolt]

7 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Gavilar was receiving the visions, but he was not otherwise influenced yet. 

But why was he being sent the visions? There has to be reason that the Stormfather decided it was time to start sending them, thereby initiating the return of the KR in one way or another. 

[Calderis he/him]

4 minutes ago, Mason Wheeler said:

To tell the difference between what very easily?  That's kind of crucial to the point here, and it makes this answer from Brandon difficult to understand.

In the context of the quote, the way they would react to the visions. 

I'm guessing by their actions that the Stormfather (at least the part of him that is Tanavast's Cognitive Shadow) wanted someone to react like Dalinar. Someone who would work to prevent and/or fight what was coming. 

Gavilar's actions were far more concerned with his legacy and the strength of humanity than with fighting against Odium. 

1 minute ago, ChazBolt said:

But why was he being sent the visions? There has to be reason that the Stormfather decided it was time to start sending them, thereby initiating the return of the KR in one way or another. 

As the Diagram says, the desolation needs no usher. Gavilar was wrong. He reacted to the visions thinking that he needed to use the threat to unite people. The storm was going to come with ot without him though. He was supposed to ready the people to fight back. 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1166#2

Quote

QUESTION

Another interesting thing I heard was when he was explaining a little about the secret organizations to a young lady who was a fairly new fan.

BRANDON SANDERSON

I didn’t hear the exact question, but Brandon spoke with certainty when he said that Amaram and Gavilar were Sons of Honor. I had taken Gavilar’s involvement with a grain of salt to this point. He also said that we know the most about their purpose–to return the Voidbringers as a means of making the Heralds return–and they they were the “most wrong.” He said that we can pretty much infer the purposes of the diagram group through the epigraphs and text. He said we basically don’t know anything about the Ghostbloods’ purposes. (which matches what Mraize told Shallan. I am very excited to find out more about them and if they know Hoid)

He ascribed his own meaning to the visions and ignored their real purpose.

[ChazBolt]

5 minutes ago, Calderis said:

As the Diagram says, the desolation needs no usher. Gavilar was wrong. He reacted to the visions thinking that he needed to use the threat to unite people. The storm was going to come with ot without him though. He was supposed to ready the people to fight back. 

He ascribed his own meaning to the visions and ignored their real purpose.

Putting Gavilar aside for a moment, this doesnt answer why the Stormfather sent the visions in the first place. Yes, the Desolation needs no usher, but then why did the Stormfather just decide to start sending visions? Something must have triggered that. 

Edited August 25, 2017 by ChazBolt

[Calderis he/him]

7 minutes ago, ChazBolt said:

Putting Gavilar aside for a moment, this doesnt answer why the Stormfather sent the visions in the first place. Yes, the Desolation needs no usher, but then why did the Stormfather just decide to start sending visions? Something must have triggered that. 

I don't know the exact trigger, but I'm guessing it's the same thing that allowed the Unmade to become active again (the death rattles and the thrill), possibly the listeners rediscovering their forms. 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1111#8

Quote

GPMUSHU

Has the Thrill existed longer than the Death Rattles or have they both been occurring for about the same period of time?

BRANDON SANDERSON

The Thrill and the Death Rattles started around the same time, but the locations for the two fluctuate and have been since they appeared.

FOOTNOTE

This note is from the forums: (This is just a way of confirming that the Unmade have been active for about the same amount of time. Both started around the time Gavilar started to explore the Shattered Plains according to Taravangian.)

There's been some debate on how long those have actually been occurring, because we know that the thrill has been around for a longer time frame than that footnote lists. 

But if the Unmade are active, that's a pretty good sign that something changed. 

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

32 minutes ago, ChazBolt said:

Heres my problem with this though. Why was the Stormfather already sending him visions then?

You want to blame Gavilar for suddenly deciding "well, how do i keep this kingdom together? War!" when he was already being influenced by the Stormfather.

What triggered the Stormfather to start sending him visions? Something was already wrong and the KR were needed back. Gavilar didn't need to train a heir, he needed to bring back an ancient order which was last known to exist during times of war.  

Taln was probably about to break, you are right the Desolation was on its way. The problem, is as follows:

• Gavilar could have used the time to prepare humanity, and start finding radiants
• Instead he decided to try to make the Desolation come even faster, to increase his own glory
• I also disagree that Gavilar didn't need to train a heir. If Elhokar were a good king, a lot of the chaos that happened during the vengance pact would not have happened, they could have reached peace with the parshendi and maybe further united Roshar before the Desolation. And it also seems much easier to unite people if you can promise that if you fall there is a good leader ready to suceed. 
• Trying to make a legacy without giving a single thought to who will succed you is flawed thinking at its best

 

Edited August 25, 2017 by WhiteLeeopard

[ChazBolt]

12 minutes ago, Calderis said:

But if the Unmade are active, that's a pretty good sign that something changed. 

So the question then becomes what reactivated them?

EDIT: question, and this is just because i may be lacking in knowledge, but wasnt "The Thrill" as Dalinar speaks about active for while? Its part of Alethi battle culture. How are we distinguishing these things from each other?

10 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

I also disagree that Gavilar didn't need to train a heir. If Elhokar were a good king, a lot of the chaos that happened during the vengance pact would not have happened, they could have reached peace with the parshendi and maybe further united Roshar before the Desolation. And it also seems much easier to unite people if you can promise that if you fall there is a good leader ready to suceed. 

I didnt mean to say he shouldnt be training an heir, that just a basic good thing to do as a ruler, just that it wasnt necessarily the necessary task in this context. 

Edited August 25, 2017 by ChazBolt

[Mason Wheeler]

1 hour ago, ChazBolt said:

EDIT: also, being a spy doesnt make you "unscrupulous" or "disreputable" 

Try telling that to the people being spied on.

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Mason Wheeler said:

Waitasec.  We've got a Radiant who's a thief and a spy, whose power literally runs on lies, who is highly-placed in the royal family of Alethkar and among the organization of the new Knights Radiant, and spent the whole second book learning to use her powers to deceive people and be a more effective spy.  This person is being blackmailed by an evil group whose interests are very much not aligned with Dalinar's mission to unite humanity and save them from the desolation to come...

...and you're worried about Lift?!?

Actually, there is case to be had about Lift perhaps not being the most stellar of knights. I feel this post goes a bit hard on Shallan. She isn't on a quest to forge herself a double personality nor is she spying onto the Ghostbloods out of mischief: her situation is dire and I feel the story perhaps did not convey just how critical it actually is. Her family is indebted towards people willing kill them to get their due. The soulcaster Lin Davar has been using to create riches is broken. Lin is dead and while they managed to hid the truth, it will come out sooner or later. Shallan has gigantic pressure on her to find a way for her family to survive and, yes, she is willing to go as far as required. So yes, she has used her powers to deceive he Ghostblood, an organisation responsible for killing Jasnah and yes, she did join their ranks later on because they blackmailed her by taking over her brothers.

I however do not think she will turn out ruining the name of the Radiants. 

Lift on the other hand might have a good heart and genuine care for beggars, miscreants and orphans, but can she focus long enough onto the big picture to be of any consequential use?

This being said, while Radiants do not have to be "good", I somehow doubt plunging countries into blood shed works out. I have no idea why the Stormfather chose Gavilar, but it may be he was the best candidate at the time. He had no idea he'd unite by trying to get everyone killed. 

[Mason Wheeler]

2 minutes ago, maxal said:

Actually, there is case to be had about Lift perhaps not being the most stellar of knights. I feel this post goes a bit hard on Shallan. She isn't on a quest to forge herself a double personality nor is she spying onto the Ghostbloods out of mischief: her situation is dire and I feel the story perhaps did not convey just how critical it actually is. Her family is indebted towards people willing kill them to get their due. The soulcaster Lin Davar has been using to create riches is broken. Lin is dead and while they managed to hid the truth, it will come out sooner or later. Shallan has gigantic pressure on her to find a way for her family to survive and, yes, she is willing to go as far as required. So yes, she has used her powers to deceive he Ghostblood, an organisation responsible for killing Jasnah and yes, she did join their ranks later on because they blackmailed her by taking over her brothers.

Sure, I definitely understand all that.  I don't think she's evil or anything; I think she's tragic, in the classical Greek sense.  She's caught up in things beyond her control, and the Ghostbloods are going to try to use her for evil.  I'm just remembering this:

Quote

There are four whom we watch. The first is the surgeon, forced to put aside healing to become a soldier in the most brutal war of our time. The second is the assassin, a murderer who weeps as he kills. The third is the liar, a young woman who wears a scholar’s mantle over the heart of a thief. The last is the highprince, a warlord whose eyes have opened to the past as his thirst for battle wanes.

The world can change. Surgebinding and Shardwielding can return; the magics of ancient days can become ours again. These four people are key.

One of them may redeem us.

And one of them will destroy us.

With Szeth's recent developments, it seems like Shallan is the best candidate for the role of the destroyer.