Odium' Champion "The Thrill"

[OneNastyChull he/him]

WOR SPOILERS

Spoiler

Ok so pretty sure it was mentioned in WOR that one of the only ways to break the cycle of Desolations was for the Rosharians to get Odium to accept a champion vs champion battle. Any thread that already speaks about this that someone can reference me too? If not I've got some ideas...

 

[Nathrangking he/him]

As has been stated Adolin is completely loyal to his family. He did not betray dalinar despite his perceived madness, nor does he turn his back on Renarin his ill brother even though it may reflect badly on him to retain his loyalties. As was also stated he did what he thought was necessary when killing Sadeas if he had truly been taken by Odium why wouldn't he simply kill his father and be done with it. Dalinar would not see it coming he could stage it like an accident if he so desired and be done with it. He also became appalled by the thrill and the slaughter he did not embrace it. I would not be surprised if in Oathbringer and beyond he struggles with what he had to do to protect his family. The weight of this problem may yet cure him of his frivolous and shallow behavior. Perhaps he will despite not having a nahel bond stand up to Odium's champion and seek redemption for his actions.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Nathrangking said:

The weight of this problem may yet cure him of his frivolous and shallow behavior. 

I would argue Adolin's frivolous and shallow behavior is just a front he puts in front of others. Each time he has the opportunity to show his real colors, he is everything but shallow and frivolous: he stands up to bullies, he refuses to be he quiet bystander, he laughs with darkeyed children and allows them to try his helmet (this must be a BIG DEAL to those kids, to be able not only to tough, but to try on a piece of a mystical Plate: how many Shardbearers do the same?). 

I think Adolin is still fighting in between who he thinks he is and who he really is. In shorts, he thinks he is frivolous, shallow and dumb, but when push comes to shove, he really isn't. He just never realized it.

1 hour ago, Nathrangking said:

 Perhaps he will despite not having a nahel bond stand up to Odium's champion and seek redemption for his actions.

I really do not know why Adolin needs to redeem himself for having murdered a traitor to his country, a betrayer and a man having single-handily slaughter a whole army. Nobody ever speaks of Dalinar nor Shallan nor Jasnah needing to redeem themselves and yet the actions they did are either equally horrific or, in Dalinar's case, downright worst.

My thoughts are Adolin will think he needs to redeem himself to Dalinar's eyes as it won't be the murder which will grate him, but the fact he has failed to maintain his father's insane ideal. Remember when Adolin was about to be slain by Szeth? Remember what "his last words" were? Father, I am sorry. I... I suspect the word he never got the chance to say was I failed. 

[Shadowmancer he/him]

On 7/1/2017 at 2:45 PM, OneNastyChull said:

WOR SPOILERS

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Ok so pretty sure it was mentioned in WOR that one of the only ways to break the cycle of Desolations was for the Rosharians to get Odium to accept a champion vs champion battle. Any thread that already speaks about this that someone can reference me too? If not I've got some ideas...

 

Ok, here are my two cents. One thing I find important in the Cosmere is the idea of a Shard Investing itself in a system. One thing that kept Ruin from wrecking havoc on the Cosmere was his heavy (as in, created matter from his own energy) Investment in Scadrial. However, Odium, as far as we know, doesn't have anything Invested on Roshar. Aside from his Splinters.

So the question becomes, why does he have Splinters in the first place? I haven't heavily researched this, so I may be wrong, but one of my theories is that he has Splinters because Honor and Cultivation do. Honor was Splintered beyond repair, but Cultivation seems to have willingly Splintered part of herself to form a prison for him, in much the same way that Preservation did. Because Odium balances the forces of Honor and Cultivation, he was forced to divest himself of some power to match theirs upon that world. The Heralds were made Splinters-by-proxy through the Honorblades.

Now I get to my other cent (I told you I had two). The Oathpact, in my mind, wasn't made with Honor, but with Odium.

That thought may seem ludicrous, but hear me out. The prologue of WOK has two heralds debating whether the enemy would be held by only one of their number keeping the Oathpact (while the rest of them broke it). An Oath seems to only apply to the Shard and the person who made it (that is unless the Heralds were filling in for Honor somehow, maintaining a balance between him and Odium, but he seems to have Splintered sometime after the Recreance).

So if the Oathpact was made with Odium, then he was bound to Roshar, but prevented from entering it fully, as long as it was maintained. That was the long game of Honor and the Heralds -- to keep him from roving the Cosmere, murdering the other Shards willy-nilly (or as the Bard would say, "Will he nil he" [Hamlet]). Now that the Oathpact has been broken (at least it seems to have been broken), we can presume he is more free to manifest himself on Roshar, as evidenced by the Everstorm. 

Now to answer the question of a champion. In either scenario, Odium is bound in some part by rules and guidelines, whether connected to Honor's interference or his own basic Shard-liness. When he chooses a champion, as the Stormfather says he could be forced to do, that means he will be heavily Invested. Heavily. What would happen if that Investiture bond were to be Shattered (as in, the champion dying)? We see what effect death has on the wielders of Shardblades -- their spren are trapped in broken form inside the physical realm. While the death of a Knight Radiant doesn't seem to permanently damage a spren, it might be quite a traumatic experience for a god.

There is, of course, an inherent flaw to this argument. The Oathpact was broken. Odium isn't dead, so if the Oathpact was with him, then that would challenge this theory. If it was with Honor we see a similar problem; Honor didn't appear to die for quite some time after the 9 Heralds abandoned their Oath (unless all his visions to Dalinar were his interpretation of the future).

Perhaps, then, there is something different about a champion than we've seen so far. Dalinar made an Oath with the shattering Stormfather, and that's as close to a champion of Honor that I can think of. But the champions haven't been chosen yet, as far as we've been told. Something tells me it's a much more intricate process than we've seen so far with the Oaths, and that it would have much more lasting consequences for all parties involved -- Shard and "Shardbearer" alike.

So tl;dr version: in choosing a champion, Odium would Invest himself tremendously, almost dangerously, to the point of vulnerability. Killing the champion would in some way kill Odium, whether simply killing Raise (the Vessel) or Shattering the Shard entirely. I'm sure others have said basically the same thing in not so many words, but this is my theory. There are many theories like it, but this one is mine.

Edited August 2, 2017 by K David Murdock
clarity

[Calderis he/him]

11 minutes ago, K David Murdock said:

Now I get to my other cent (I told you I had two). The Oathpact, in my mind, wasn't made with Honor, but with Odium.

We know this is not true. 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1080#15

Quote

QUESTION ()

How many parties were there to the original Oathpact?

BRANDON SANDERSON

The Heralds and Honor. They thought that by walking away from their oaths, that it would break the Oathpact. They're going to find out that it's not quite as broken as they had previously thought (meaning the Heralds).

And as to this

Quote

There is, of course, an inherent flaw to this argument. The Oathpact was broken. Odium isn't dead, so if the Oathpact was with him, then that would challenge this theory. If it was with Honor we see a similar problem; Honor didn't appear to die for quite some time after the 9 Heralds abandoned their Oath (unless all his visions to Dalinar were his interpretation of the future).

We also have information in that WoB and another that the Oathpact is not as broken as the Heralds would like to believe. 

 

Edited August 2, 2017 by Calderis

[Nathrangking he/him]

I think that it is simply a leveling of the playing field. By forcing the choosing of a champion Odium becomes bound in some way by the results of said duel. There may yet be rules at play that we don't understand yet if they are similar to the duels Adolin duels in. Stipulations made perhaps bind the investiture of Odium to the champion of his choosing. The defeat of said champion might blunt his powers and force him to regroup for a good long while.

[Shadowmancer he/him]

Thanks for the info @Calderis

[Calderis he/him]

13 minutes ago, K David Murdock said:

Thanks for the info @Calderis

Any time 

[Nathrangking he/him]

I am excited because now we may get to see Dalinar the human. Not Dalinar the warlord, or Dalinar the Highprince. Seeing him at his worst and at his darkest hour makes him a far more compelling character than a simply honorable person without heavy baggage.