Shardic Intent and the Vessel's Personality

[The One Who Connects he/him]

For the longest time, we've operated under the assumption that the Intent of a Shard would overwrite the Personality of it's Vessel. We have WoB proof, so it's not a big surprise. However, we have also made assumptions that the particular flavor of the Intent also affects that overwriting change. Autonomy has been our flagship example, as that autonomous force might allow Bavadin to act against her Intent. However, as we have never brought that logic past Autonomy to any of the other Shards, I think there is more to it than just that.

We know that the Vessels have a limited ability to filter the Intent of their Shard when they are using its power, and it is my belief that while they affect the power, it affects them, subtly changing their personality to be more in tune with the Intent.

So without further ado, here is my preliminary list about the effects Intent has on the Vessels.

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Ambition - Strengthens urge to act, Lessens self-doubt

Autonomy -

Cultivation - "Cultivates" the personality of the Vessel, trimming undesirable qualities while nurturing desirable ones

Devotion - Strengthens commitment and empathy, Lessens apathy

Dominion - Strengthens desire for structure and authority, Lessens desire for chaos/lawlessness

Endowment - Strengthens generosity, Lessens selfishness

Honor - Influences the vessel's moral compass, making actions into black & white judgements

Odium - Heightens anger and enmity, Lessens empathy

Preservation -

Ruin - "Ruins" the personality, decaying desirable and undesirable qualities alike

---

As for how that affects the Vessel's ability to resist the Shard, I believe that (contrary to popular belief) the Shard gains greater control as the Vessel's personality gets closer to matching the Shardic Intent. When the Vessel uses the power, they become affected by it, and that change eventually reaches a point where the Shardic Intent and the Vessel's personality are no longer different, allowing the Shard to assume full control over it's "host."

Ambition - Removes all trace of doubt and inhibition(is there a more proper term for 'what makes you hold back'?), turning the vessel's personality into pure Ambition to act.

Autonomy -

Cultivation - Prunes away all undesired qualities and aspects of the vessel's personality, making it indistinguishable from Cultivation itself.

Devotion - Removes all trace of apathy and indifference, morphing the vessel's personality into pure Devotion.

Dominion - Hems in concepts of rebellion/dissent, melding the vessel's personality into one of control and Dominion.

Endowment - Removes all trace of selfishness and greed, warping the vessel's personality into one of Endowing(giving) and charity.

Honor -

Odium - Removes all compassionate tendencies, consuming the vessel's personality with pure Odium.

Preservation -

Ruin - Removes all trace of constructive tendencies, and then decaying the rest of the personality, leaving only Ruin.

---

Edit v1 (7/1/17): Reformatting, Included several suggestions from Calderis's post here.

Edited July 1, 2017 by The One Who Connects

[Pagerunner he/him]

Can you elaborate on your operative definition of Intent? It looks like you view it as a Shardic property, but you also refer to Bavadin's Intent as a separate concept entirely.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

6 minutes ago, Pagerunner said:

Can you elaborate on your operative definition of Intent?

I consider Intent as the driving force of the Shard, kinda like the Shard's "personality." The Intent guides what they do, and leaves subtle effects on things it influences.

Preservation's Intent would be to preserve, to make things static. So anything it meddles with would be harder to change, more preserved. Anything/anyone Odium meddled with would become more hateful, angrier, because his Intent is hate and/or that which inspires hate. I could also use the Skaze being of Dominion and their interests with being in control as an example, but that's more tenuous.

7 minutes ago, Pagerunner said:

you also refer to Bavadin's Intent as a separate concept entirely.

If you are talking about this line: "as that autonomous force might allow Bavadin to act against her Intent," that's more than likely me wording it badly. if it's the other bit, let me try and explain better.

My theory is that the force of will behind a Shardic Intent does more than just try and overwrite the Vessel's personality, it also tries to affect/change that personality in a way that follows it's intent. With Bavadin and Autonomy, Bavadin's personality will be eventually consumed entirely because it can't resist a Shard forever, but in the meantime, that force starts to alter the Vessel's personality too. Brandon has said that the Vessel can "filter" the Shard's Intent, and I feel that the Intent will start to affect the Vessel's personality as they filter it, making their personality more in-line with the Intent.

 - Rayse's personality would be changed to be even more hateful(or odious I guess) than is used to be because of holding Odium.
 - Leras' personality would be preserved and unchanging because of holding Preservation. The power would change the personality, but since preservation is like the anti-change, the "change" to the personality is not allowing it to change.
 - Bavadin's personality would start to be more autonomous than it used to be from holding Autonomy, maybe even have some of it become autonomous from the rest(her multiple personas, her say 1 thing, do another actions, etc..) It's not as easy to describe how a personality becomes more autonomous as I'd like it to be.
 - Aona's personality would become more devoted then before from holding Devotion. Google defines devotion as "love, loyalty, or enthusiasm for a person, activity, or cause." Whatever she cared about before, she would care about even more now. Rather bad theoretical example, but if Aona really enjoyed swimming before, then she'd be absolutely obsessed with it now.

---

I think the biggest issue with explaining it is that I don't really see making Bavadin's personality more autonomous as that different from the others. The Shardic Intent overwrites the personality of the vessel, and the Shardic Intent should start to change the Vessel's personality. Maybe changing that personality to be more in line with the Intent is how they overwrite it... Once the personality stops being different from the Intent, the personality stops fighting against the intent and essentially lets itself get overwritten.

[Pagerunner he/him]

So, it looks you're describing the Intent as playing out multiple ways in the effect of the Shard on the Vessel. You have both the steady-state (what the Vessel's personality is changing into) and the transient (how the Shard does the actual changing). I.e. Ruin is Ruininously changing the Vessel's personality to be more Ruinous, so he has a quick effect. Preservation will Preservatively (not a real word, let's go with Conservatively) change the Vessel's personality to be Preservative, so it happens slowly. Autonomy will Autonomously make the Vessel more Autonomous, which... really doesn't mean that much.

But beyond that, neither of them explain the actual way we've seen an Intent affect a Vessel. In Secret History, Kelsier tried, but literally could not act in a method against Preservation's Intent. This wasn't a change in his personality, it was a restriction. The Shard itself wasn't acting; it was limiting the actions of the Vessel. So, I don't think Ruin acts Ruinously; Shards don't "do" anything, unless they develop a mind on their own. I think Ruin requires its Vessel to act Ruinously. Which will result in a changed personality on the part of the individual; you are what you eat. Vin was able to act directly against Preservation's Intent in killing herself, her personality did not completely match Preservation's Intent.

At the end of the day, Shards will affect the Vessel in multiple ways, both through restrictions on actions and by warping the personality. But I think the Shard's Intent determines the placement of the goalposts; I don't see anything that indicates the Shards affect their users in different methods.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

9 minutes ago, Pagerunner said:

So, it looks you're describing the Intent as playing out multiple ways in the effect of the Shard on the Vessel. You have both the steady-state (what the Vessel's personality is changing into) and the transient (how the Shard does the actual changing). I.e. Ruin is Ruinously changing the Vessel's personality to be more Ruinous, so he has a quick effect. Preservation will Preservatively (not a real word, let's go with Conservatively) change the Vessel's personality to be Preservative, so it happens slowly. Autonomy will Autonomously make the Vessel more Autonomous, which... really doesn't mean that much.

You've worded it better than I could, but yes.

6 minutes ago, Pagerunner said:

Shards don't "do" anything, unless they develop a mind on their own. I think Ruin requires its Vessel to act Ruinously. Which will result in a changed personality on the part of the individual; you are what you eat.

This is kinda where I was going in that the power affects them when they "filter" it. The power changes them when they are using that power to do something. But without a body, doing anything beyond just thinking pretty much requires using the Shard's power in some way.

14 minutes ago, Pagerunner said:

neither of them explain the actual way we've seen an Intent affect a Vessel. In Secret History, Kelsier tried, but literally could not act in a method against Preservation's Intent. This wasn't a change in his personality, it was a restriction. The Shard itself wasn't acting; it was limiting the actions of the Vessel.

Well, then I guess I'll have to find a way to explain Leras' actions against Ruin in a way that fits within Preservation's Intent before I go any further, as that was the catalyst behind the discussion that led to this thread.

[Calderis he/him]

The way I see it, is that the Shard acting on the vessel is going to have two effects, as The One Who Connects said. 

First is going to be the constraint placed on actual actions taken. This is the obvious effect. 

Second, and more subtly, is the effect on the Vessel's personality. 

I'm going to limit what I have to say to Ati and Leras, as they are the only Shards/Vessels we've seen with any depth (we haven't really "seen" Ati, but in this case, that is kind of the point).

Ati's personality was completely eroded, leaving the intent of Ruin to guide all action, and Ati's mind functioning only as a piece of the Shard itself. The reason we are given for this is that Ati was not strong willed enough to hold back the pressure of the Shards intent. 

Now Leras, at the point that we see him is dying. He is coming apart both mentally and physically. He has no memory of his plan to defeat Ruin, beyond awareness that there was a plan. If his physical image, and his mental capacity have degraded to that point, it stands to reason that his will should have failed as well. So why then, is he a distinct person? Why is he not a personification of the Shard, as Ati has become? 

It seems to me, that the power of Preservation, while confining Leras' actions towards its intent, has held his personality in a form of stasis as well (hence his pre-ascension memories of Cephandrius remaining intact).

So in short I agree with The One Who Connects, but have no idea how this will effect the other Shards in most instances.

Edit: as far as Leras ability to "partially splinter" Ruin through the production of Atium, the only thing that I can think is that he was able to weigh the stability created through trapping/weakening ruin, against the change inflicted, and found the long term Preservation to be of greater value than the change he had to enact. 

Edited June 30, 2017 by Calderis

[The One Who Connects he/him]

56 minutes ago, Calderis said:

So in short I agree with The One Who Connects, but have no idea how this will effect the other Shards in most instances. 

Well, there is one thing. A WoB that makes me think that Rayse has been consumed by his Intent as well. Source (1st spoiler tag, 3rd question)

Quote

Q:I wanted to ask, is the shardbearer of Odium a human?

A: Not any longer.

Q:Ok, that's... I didn't expect that one

A: But what the answer to your question you really want to know is, was he originally human?

Q:yeah

A:Yes. That's a good question!

Considering Brandon still refers to Odium as Rayse, I think it's safe to assume that this WoB applies to Rayse. Per The Letter, Frost and Hoid both know who this "Rayse" is, meaning that it should be one of the 16, as I don't think Frost(non-Worldhopper) would know some random new Vessel, or that Hoid would be in the same system as Odium to see it happen in the early days. I think the only logical conclusion is that Rayse has been consumed by Odium, much like Ati was consumed by Ruin. What this means for the theory, I'm not sure, but it does make some other things quite curious..

[Calderis he/him]

Just now, The One Who Connects said:

Well, there is one thing. A WoB that makes me think that Rayse has been consumed by his Intent as well. Source (1st spoiler tag, 3rd question)

Considering Brandon still refers to Odium as Rayse, I think it's safe to assume that this WoB applies to Rayse. Per The Letter, Frost and Hoid both know who this "Rayse" is, meaning that it should be one of the 16, as I don't think Frost(non-Worldhopper) would know some random new Vessel, or that Hoid would be in the same system as Odium to see it happen in the early days. I think the only logical conclusion is that Rayse has been consumed by Odium, much like Ati was consumed by Ruin. What this means for the theory, I'm not sure, but it does make some other things quite curious..

Considering the nature of a Shard, I don't think any Vessel would be considered human after ascension. 

[The One Who Connects he/him]

Just now, Calderis said:

Considering the nature of a Shard, I don't think any Vessel would be considered human after ascension. 

Well, we know that Sazed hasn't been consumed by his Intent yet(I believe), so asking Brandon if he would consider Sazed "human" still(or Terris, I guess) should clear up that distinction. I don't know why I hadn't considered your interpretation at all when I first saw the WoB...

[Calderis he/him]

8 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

Well, we know that Sazed hasn't been consumed by his Intent yet(I believe), so asking Brandon if he would consider Sazed "human" still(or Terris, I guess) should clear up that distinction. I don't know why I hadn't considered your interpretation at all when I first saw the WoB...

That question would definitely provide an answer. 

My reasoning is that the body is consumed in the process of ascension, and the Cognitive and spiritual aspects of the individual are expanded to contain the Shard. 

After Ascension, I think a Vessels previous race becomes somewhat irrelevant. They are a Vessel. 

[+Extesian he/him]

My thoughts 

Firstly on the human issue. I agree that its about the spiritweb changing and the threshold is way below that of a Shard

Quote

QUESTION

Is Hoid human?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes... but. Hoid is... you can say that he is still human, but his DNA have changed. Now he is human but you wouldn't call him Homo sapiens anymore. It happens something similar with the Steel Inquisitors"

I think that is what the WoB is referring to

On the issue of Preservation 'splintering' Ruin I see it this way. Firstly, it seems like most of the purpose of Ruin's prison was as a counter measure, providing a balanced reaction to every move Ruin made

Quote

Ruin's prison was not like those that hold men. He wasn't bound by bars. In fact, he could move about freely.

His prison, rather, was one of impotence. In the terms of forces and gods, this meant balance. If Ruin were to push, the prison would push back, essentially rendering Ruin powerless. And because much of his power was stripped away and hidden, he was unable to affect the world in any but the most subtle of ways.

HoA epigraphs

That counter -  balancing itself is very Preservation. It's countering actions. What's the opposite of action? Inaction, starus quo, preservation. So the question is how did he split off part off Ruin in the first place? Even that could be preservationy, or more likely Leras did so before Preservation's Intent took over his ability to filter that Intent the way he wished. So I don't think Preservation's behavior is non-preservationy on its face. 

Otherwise the theory has some merit, but I think it more comes back to the idea that a Shard's intent operates externally not internally. Like Leras must Preserve other things but can sacrifice himself. Ruin must ruin things but can preserve himself. 

I'll have to think on more details, but they're my initial, post-wakeup thoughts. 

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

Trying to destroy Ruin could technically go along with Preservations intent, since it was done in order to preserve. In fact, since Ruin is the personification of the end, destroying him would, in a way, be the ultimate act of preservation. 

 

My take on the Shards and their intents have always been that their intents affects their personalities, but that the personalities also affects the intent. For example, Preservation would be different if Rayse had held it. I think there is a WoB that states that Ruin could have been much worse, which I feel goes in line with my idea of this. 

[Calderis he/him]

I've been thinking about this and trying to think about the ways the intents could effect the persona of the Shards. I'm going to list my thoughts here on each shard individually as to how the personality itself could be effected, followed by how the personality may eventually be lost. 

Ambition: strengthens the urge to act and lessens self doubt. No idea in what way the Shard would end up in control. 

Autonomy: The Vessel is slowly forced to view any rule they have not created as extemporaneous. (was trying to consider how Bavadin's apparent Hypocrisy could be explained, and all I can think is that she doesn't see the hypocrisy. She sees all rules that are not devised through her own imposition as unnecessary constraints, and all of her own as reasoned and natural.) no idea how the Shard would end up in control. 

Cultivation: a Cognitive form of neural pruning. The shard attempts to expand and strengthen certain aspects of the Vessel's persona through trimming or outright excision of other aspects. Eventually as this pruning process continues, the Vessel's personality is no longer distinguishable from the intent of the Shard. 

Devotion: increases empathy, commitment, and protectionism. Eventually merging of personality to Intent would occur through those first two traits. 

Dominion: strengthen desire for structure and control. May slowly hem in the personality completely resulting in something similar to Ruin's effect on Ati. 

Endowment: increases selflessness and generosity. No idea how the Shard would end up in control.

Honor: forces the vessel to make judgements in terms of black and white. Morality becomes a completely codified structure, without nuance. No idea how the Shard ends up in control.

Odium: increases feelings of hatred and anger, Indirectly lowering empathy. No idea how the Shard ends up in control. 

I don't expect these to be right, just putting my thoughts out to try and keep the conversation going. 

[The One Who Connects he/him]

3 hours ago, Calderis said:

Endowment: increases selflessness and generosity. No idea how the Shard would end up in control.

Vessel becomes generous enough to willingly give control to the Shard.

3 hours ago, Calderis said:

Cultivation: a Cognitive form of neural pruning. [...] Dominion: strengthen desire for structure and control.

I like most of these. Mind if I edit in the OP to include some of your ideas?

[Calderis he/him]

50 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

I  like most of these. Mind if I edit in the OP to include some of your ideas?

Go for it. 

[The One Who Connects he/him]

38 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Go for it. 

Alright, OP is updated and reformatted. I also made a few assumptions on how the Shards would end up in control, so I'm curious what you think.

Autonomy is still a flurry of Question Marks of course, but that's to be expected. A synonym for autonomy is self-rule, which could explain some things.

23 hours ago, Calderis said:

Now Leras is coming apart both mentally and physically. He has no memory of his plan, beyond awareness that there was a plan. If his physical image and mental capacity have degraded to that point, it stands to reason that his will should have failed as well. So why then, is he not a personification of the Shard, as Ati has become? 

It seems to me, that the power of Preservation, while confining Leras' actions towards its intent, has held his personality in a form of stasis as well (hence his pre-ascension memories remaining intact).

At the moment, all that's left is this, which has been stumping me on how to really explain it like the others.

[Calderis he/him]

14 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

Alright, OP is updated and reformatted. I also made a few assumptions on how the Shards would end up in control, so I'm curious what you think.

I like the tweaks and additions you made to my thoughts. Don't know if we're correct, but I'll gladly keep thinking about it and help however I can.

[TheLordRuler he/him]

On 7/2/2017 at 2:00 AM, Calderis said:

Honor: forces the vessel to make judgements in terms of black and white. Morality becomes a completely codified structure, without nuance. No idea how the Shard ends up in control.. 

1

I feel like you definitions of Honour lend themselves more to Justice, and while these two often intersect, especially in our world, they are different things.I actually expect a Justice Shard out there somewhere, as Divine Justice does seem like a godly trait. Honour, for me, is more about upholding your word and keeping contracts. We can say that Szeths actions were Honourable while bound by his oathstone, but he was not engaging in any form of Justice. You can be honourable and be astoundingly immoral at the same time.  

[Calderis he/him]

14 minutes ago, TheLordRuler said:

I feel like you definitions of Honour lend themselves more to Justice, and while these two often intersect, especially in our world, they are different things.I actually expect a Justice Shard out there somewhere, as Divine Justice does seem like a godly trait. Honour, for me, is more about upholding your word and keeping contracts. We can say that Szeths actions were Honourable while bound by his oathstone, but he was not engaging in any form of Justice. You can be honourable and be astoundingly immoral at the same time.  

Honor is defined as following a set code of conduct. Your word is a part of that, and the "contract" is the chosen code. Szeth exemplifies that definition of honor perfectly while he commits atrocities. 

[TheLordRuler he/him]

1 minute ago, Calderis said:

Honor is defined as following a set code of conduct. Your word is a part of that, and the "contract" is the chosen code. Szeth exemplifies that definition of honor perfectly while he commits atrocities. 

Yes, but I don't think either morality or judgement falls under Honour. Which, I believe, you included in your definition. Tbh I feel like you just repeated my own reply back to me, unless I missed something?

[Calderis he/him]

21 minutes ago, TheLordRuler said:

Yes, but I don't think either morality or judgement falls under Honour. Which, I believe, you included in your definition. Tbh I feel like you just repeated my own reply back to me, unless I missed something?

I'm saying that I disagree. Honor, when turned to an all encompassing intent separate from all else, would become the Vessels means of judgment and morality. It Is separate from those things normally, but can be used to both make judgment, and as a surrogate form of morality as with Szeth. 

So while I would typically agree with you, for the Shard Honor, I think all three of those things, honor, judgment, morality, would become synonymous. 

Edited July 9, 2017 by Calderis

[TheLordRuler he/him]

12 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I'm saying that I disagree. Honor, when turned to an all encompassing intent sprayed from all else, would become the Vessels means of judgment and morality. It Is separate from those things normally, but can be used to both make judgment, and as a surrogate form of morality as with Szeth. 

So while I would typically agree with you, for the Shard Honor, I think all three of those things, honor, judgment, morality, would become synonymous. 

Hmm, I'm still not sure I agree, but I can definitely see where you're coming from. I'll think it over a bit though. 

Of course, an official reveal of the other Shard's intents would help immensely with coming to a final conclusion