How to Hide an Honourblade

[Calderis]

31 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

How can he refound an order based on honor, peace and respect when his allies will see only the bloodthirsty, ruthless, honorless Blackthorn when he is out fighting?

Considering Gavilar was a proto-bondsmith I think we may need to rethink what Bondsmiths are. 

I think instead of honor peace and respect it was most likely more along the lines of structure, law, and shared goals. 

I mean, I share was the patron Herald of the Bondsmiths, and the thing he's most noted for in the in world Words of Radiance basically amounts to telling the surgebinders "you will live under these rules or I will kill you all." 

And back to Gavilar... With what we've seen of him slowly emerging... I think that if he could be a Bondsmith, then there's no reason Taravangian can't. 

[maxal]

Just now, Calderis said:

Considering Gavilar was a proto-bondsmith I think we may need to rethink what Bondsmiths are. 

I think instead of honor peace and respect it was most likely more along the lines of structure, law, and shared goals. 

I mean, I share was the patron Herald of the Bondsmiths, and the thing he's most noted for in the in world Words of Radiance basically amounts to telling the surgebinders "you will live under these rules or I will kill you all." 

And back to Gavilar... With what we've seen of him slowly emerging... I think that if he could be a Bondsmith, then there's no reason Taravangian can't. 

One thing we haven't considered... While it is true Gavilar was on his way to become a Bondsmtih as he strive to unite, we do not know if he would have make it all the way. Sure, it seems the second oath only cares about actions which increases unity, no matter what they may be, but we have no idea what future oaths will bring forward. 

Or maybe Radiants aren't perfect and some sprens are just bad at choosing them. It maybe some sprens do choose evil selfish terrible human beings just on the basis they can maintain a few oaths having a lot of wiggle room built into them, but yes, based on what we know, I definitely think Taravangian could be one too.

 

[Weltall]

3 hours ago, maxal said:

Or maybe Radiants aren't perfect and some sprens are just bad at choosing them. It maybe some sprens do choose evil selfish terrible human beings just on the basis they can maintain a few oaths having a lot of wiggle room built into them, but yes, based on what we know, I definitely think Taravangian could be one too.

This seems entirely possible. Dalinar's vision of Nohadon includes some telling lines:

Quote

“Our own natures destroy us,” the regal man said, voice soft, though his face was angry. “Alakavish was a Surgebinder. He should have known better. And yet, the Nahel bond gave him no more wisdom than a regular man. Alas, not all spren are as discerning as honorspren.”

Now, ths was a time when Nahel Bonds were being formed but as the people who'd formed them were being called Surgebinders and not Radiants we can assume the Orders weren't formally established yet and perhaps Ishar hadn't gotten around to his 'follow these precepts or I'll kill you' ultimatum. Even so, while things might be better now it's still likely that you could end up with a selfish Radiant who still manages to keep the First Ideal well enough to not break the bond and then has a lot of leeway with their remaining Ideals. Lightweavers for example don't seem to have major constraints on their behavior besides the First Ideal and we know there's room for personal interpretation even within an Order as to whether or not an Ideal has been kept.

[Calderis]

22 minutes ago, Weltall said:

Lightweavers for example don't seem to have major constraints on their behavior besides the First Ideal and we know there's room for personal interpretation even within an Order as to whether or not an Ideal has been kept.

The fact that personal interpretation is allowed is the reason I think that being a Radiant does not necessarily mean someone is a hero or a good person. 

The first ideal is typically interpreted to mean that the ends justifying the means is a ideology incompatible with the Radiants. Unfortunately if it too is open to interpretation then that assumption is completely invalid. I posted a general idea of how these could be interpreted to fit both Gavilar and Taravangian's methods in another thread and I'll repeat that here. 

Life before death: the life of the whole is more important than the individual 

Strength before weakness: we must be strong enough to make hard decisions 

Journey before destination: to balk at a step on the path is to fail

All of that runs counter to the normal perception of the first ideal. But it does not contain anything that the words themselves cannot express. 

Edited June 29, 2017 by Calderis