Soulcasting, persuasion and investiture

[+Extesian he/him]

Soulcasting. We know it requires investiture. We’ve seen it requiring ‘convincing’ or forcing the object to change. We know Shallan had to plead with Stick to change. We know that Jasnah ordered ropes to change (in a not-100% canon scene set between WoR and Oathbringer). We know that Jasnah managed to soulcast three human beings.

 

So, my theory is very simple, it’s already my head-canon, I just want people to pick it apart and, if there’s no evidence against, perhaps it will add to the running theories until it’s affirmed or dismantled in Oathbringer.

1. Soulcasting always requires some investiture to actually effect the change. Even if something wants to change, without investiture to facilitate that change, no change can occur.

2. If you have ‘unlimited’ investiture (basically way more than you need to just effect the change) you can force the change. I find it inconceivable that Jasnah changed 3 thugs by convincing them. I think she simply had enough investiture to force the issue.

3. If you have limited investiture, only enough to make the change, that is when you must convince the object it wants to change.

 

Now within that there could obviously be subtleties. If you’re an incredibly skilled soulcaster, or a savant, I’m sure you can force changes with less. I’m sure that no matter how skilled you are you can never soulcast without investiture. But I think it’s a balance. You can either convince the cognitive aspect to change and give it just enough investiture for that change to rewrite the spiritweb. Or you can force that change yourself with enough investiture, kind of like soulstamping.

 

Basically, extra investiture replaces persuasion.

 

Thoughts?

 

Edit - I checked amounts of investiture for different soulcasting incidents. With Jasnah changing the thugs, she cracked the smokestone and she dimmed the diamond. On a soulcaster with "some of the largest gems that Shallan had ever seen on one. Though Jasnah had used the smokestone already to transform the wall, so this must have already been a new one. And when she transforms the ropes in the scene between the books (non-canon) she only has a few gemstones worth, "so little". The ropes briefly resist, but she Jedi-ninja wills it.

Shallan changing the goblet to blood involved a visit to shadesmar via a small truth, and then the goblet says "You want me to change? I've been as I am for a great long time. I sleep so much. I will change. Give me what you have". I assume the stormlight she had available was from the soulcaster in her pocket, so a decent amount, but note that here there is no persuasion, the goblet basically offers to change in exchange for what she has. Shallan trying to change Stick had very very little, and he paused when she offered him all she had, but he decided against non-stickery. When she transforms the ship, she has multiple spheres burning brightly that make her feel 'afire' when she breathes them in. Pattern says he will 'intercede', she enters Shadesmar, says she needs another truth and Pattern says "you have given enough". It takes a lot of persuasion, but a storming ship transforms.

Spoilers for Oathbringer

Spoiler

With Kaza, the soulcaster sailing to Aimia, she transforms the tips of three stone spears and this almost uses up two large gems and some gentle, deep persuasion, and then manages to transform another. Bear in mind she's a soulcasting savant and has incredible experience.

 

 

 It's not decisive, very differently invested things are involved, and a relatively large amount of difference in the amount of stormlight available. And I have no idea how KR soulcasting vs fabrial soulcasting affects gems. Jasnah soulcasts through Ivory but the gems still get used up (or cracked if too much investiture flows through them too quickly). I'm not sure if they get used up with different efficiencies. But the main problem is most of them don't prove that you can force a change with stormlight. We didn't get Jasnah's PoV when she transformed the people. And all the other examples involve some persuasion. Except for the first soulcasting by Shallan, the goblet to blood. That's the one that makes me feel like with enough investiture you'll have objects outbidding each other to change in exchange for it. It just doesn't prove that you can force a change with enough.

Edited June 21, 2017 by Extesian
Did more research

[DeTess she/her]

I always imagine it as more of a mind-over-matter situation, so 'forcing' would be the natural and 'correct' way to go about things. Asking something to change is less likely to work as you aren't really in the right mindset. The mindset/visualization you need for soulcasting is "this rock is now smoke", not "wouldn't it be nice if this rock where to turn to smoke".

I'ts been a while since I re-read the scenes in which we got a PoV from a soul-casting, so I'm not certain about my theory, but this is just how I always imagined it.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

I like that you've sorta equated Soulcasting with Awakening where there is a base cost, and a penalty/bonus based on something. At least, that's how I'm reading into your theory.

13 hours ago, Extesian said:

If you have limited investiture, only enough to make the change, that is when you must convince the object it wants to change.

I'll sorta argue with this. I feel like there is another possibility to this. We know you can try to persuade it to want to change, which probably makes it take less Stormlight than it changing unwillingly. But what if you forcibly persuade it to want to change? You aren't forcing the change onto it, you are aggressively persuading it to want to change. It'll still cost extra, but not as much as forcing the change yourself.

Am I making sense, or have I gone in circles again? If it helps, I think you'd need like Feruchemically boosted force of Identity to do this, but I feel like it could work.

[GildedBear]

Perhaps it's a matter of sequence?  Give the thing Stomlight as a gift with a request that it changes vs offering stormlight as payment for agreeing to change? I.e.

shallan gave the light to the cup and it offered to change.

shallan offered light to the ship and it resisted but it was convinced by it's Connection to the crew

shallan offered light to the stick but it had no reason to change

jasnah shoved light into the ropes' "faces" and then ordered them to change

lastly, jasnah dumped so much light into the thieves and commanded them to become the essence of the light that she gave that their bodies said "oh, okay, sure, we can do that yeah"

it's also possible that the cup was itself soulcast before since it said it had slept for so long, or perhaps it's just that nobody thought of it.  where-as the stick had it's own existence separate from humans so was harder to convince?

shrug. speculating is fun and I look forward to more soulcasting in oathbringer? heh