Jasnah's heartbreak?

[cometaryorbit]

22 hours ago, Calderis said:

Yeah. I mean, not trying to make light of this by any means, Renarin is broken too, and the main culprit I can see is losing his mom.

I always figured it had more to do with his epilepsy and thus not being able to do what's 'expected' of a prince in a warrior aristocracy.

[Calderis he/him]

@maxal @cometaryorbit both good points. I hadn't considered the purely internal emotional aspects with Renarin, but they did wear away his self confidence. I hadn't thought about it, but "cracks" could probably be formed through steady erosion by emotional states as easily or moreso than sudden trauma. 

[Watchcry he/him]

@maxal in the case of Elsecallers, the ability to avoid one's emotions to cloud one's judgement (this was confirmed by WoB...

Im not doubting they are WoB but dang, how was killing those thugs out of anger avoiding one's emotions? It appeared that she demonstrated the opposite. 

[Yata he/him]

9 hours ago, ANRILU said:

@maxal in the case of Elsecallers, the ability to avoid one's emotions to cloud one's judgement (this was confirmed by WoB...

Im not doubting they are WoB but dang, how was killing those thugs out of anger avoiding one's emotions? It appeared that she demonstrated the opposite. 

Actually regardless the Emotional moment.

Jasnah went in that alley planning to kill a long term problem for her host. A problem the local Law can't or want not resolve.

She explained her actions for a purelly Logic view.

Yeah She could hate them...but the reason She did It, It's not emotion driven.

Edited June 1, 2017 by Yata

[windrunningmistborn]

6 hours ago, Yata said:

Yeah She could hate them...but the reason She did It, It's not emotion driven.

I disagree, see the quote I posted earlier. Shallan's reaction is probably the biggest tell we have about Jasnah's emotional state, in response to both these events and their motivation.

Edited June 1, 2017 by windrunningmistborn

[Yata he/him]

On 1/6/2017 at 11:53 AM, windrunningmistborn said:

I disagree, see the quote I posted earlier. Shallan's reaction is probably the biggest tell we have about Jasnah's emotional state, in response to both these events and their motivation.

While Jasnah was there surelly She hates those guys. The reason She decided to go there is not Emotional driven.

It's like to say that Kal was not protection Dalinar Just because he hated to a certain degree Szeth.

Edited June 2, 2017 by Yata

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

I have always thought that it has to do with Amaram. She dislikes him for some reason, and, if I remember correctly, he didnt appear too comfortable around her in the WoR prologue.

She also mentions a friend who tried to convert her, or something. We know how religious Amaram is, and my theory is that they were close once, but then something happened, and that led to Jasnah being broken.

[Jace21 he/him]

6 hours ago, Chull #445 said:

I have always thought that it has to do with Amaram. She dislikes him for some reason, and, if I remember correctly, he didnt appear too comfortable around her in the WoR prologue.

She also mentions a friend who tried to convert her, or something. We know how religious Amaram is, and my theory is that they were close once, but then something happened, and that led to Jasnah being broken.

I also think Amaram and Jasnah have a lot if history, not all of it good.

I dont think he is the friend you are referring too though. 

The friend who tried to convert her was the one sho gave her the book of endless pages, which she characterised a a very good attempt. 

I feel like she wouldnt be speaking so positively if it was Amaram.

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

On 2 juni 2017 at 2:22 AM, Jace21 said:

I also think Amaram and Jasnah have a lot if history, not all of it good.

I dont think he is the friend you are referring too though. 

The friend who tried to convert her was the one sho gave her the book of endless pages, which she characterised a a very good attempt. 

I feel like she wouldnt be speaking so positively if it was Amaram.

It is fully possible that Amaram was a cherished friend of her, and then something happened. That would explain her dislike of him, and him being so uncomfortable around her.

And Jasnah feels like a person who would recognize the skills/good attempts of someone she doesnt like as well.

Besides, who else could her friend be?

[Guest]

On 5/31/2017 at 10:51 PM, ANRILU said:

@maxal in the case of Elsecallers, the ability to avoid one's emotions to cloud one's judgement (this was confirmed by WoB...

Im not doubting they are WoB but dang, how was killing those thugs out of anger avoiding one's emotions? It appeared that she demonstrated the opposite. 

While there may have been emotions involve which she killed the thugs, the decision to seek them out might have been made with a purely rational mind. Still, either way I would point out we weren't privy to Ivory's reaction: he might not have agreed, though it seems unlikely.

On 6/1/2017 at 7:44 AM, Yata said:

While Jasnah was there surelly She hates those guys. The reason She decided to go there is not Emotional driven.

It's like to say that Kal was not protection Dalinar Just because he hated to a certain degree Szeth.

I agree with this explanation: feeling emotions doesn't mean they are the main motivators for decisions making. Kaladin indeed does not fight Szeth because he hates him, but because he is protecting Dalinar/Adolin.

On 6/1/2017 at 1:34 PM, Chull #445 said:

I have always thought that it has to do with Amaram. She dislikes him for some reason, and, if I remember correctly, he didnt appear too comfortable around her in the WoR prologue.

Jasnah said her father wished to marry her to Amaram: this might have been reason enough to dislike him. Since her father was involved within the same secret society and plotting as Amaram, it seems illogical she would hate one for it, but not the other. There do not need to be more to them but a man bruised ego after being rejected by Alethkar's princess.

2 hours ago, Chull #445 said:

Besides, who else could her friend be?

Maybe her former ward? It is said she had one, once and it ended badly.

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

58 minutes ago, maxal said:

Jasnah said her father wished to marry her to Amaram: this might have been reason enough to dislike him. Since her father was involved within the same secret society and plotting as Amaram, it seems illogical she would hate one for it, but not the other. There do not need to be more to them but a man bruised ego after being rejected by Alethkar's princess.

Her hate for Amaram might come from something other than the Sons of Honor. Something he did to her maybe?

Or she knew that Amaram was part of the SoH but had no idea that Gavilar was involved. That is also a possibility. 

[Guest]

39 minutes ago, Chull #445 said:

Her hate for Amaram might come from something other than the Sons of Honor. Something he did to her maybe?

Or she knew that Amaram was part of the SoH but had no idea that Gavilar was involved. That is also a possibility. 

Jasnah purposefully refused to marry. When Gavilar talked of marrying Jasnah to Amaram, she already was within her late twenties. Alethi marry within their teen years: Adolin speaks on how him not being married while being in his young twenties is considered shameful and generally viewed in a negative way. Hence, at 28, it is impossible for Amaram to have been Jasnah's major suitor, nor the first. He likely was yet another attempt from Gavilar to marry his daughter: it can't have been the first, it likely was the tenth is not more. I thus don't think Amaram did anything, I think Jasnah just decided a long time ago she would not marry and, given her age, she probably grew annoyed at seeing her father keeping on insisting on presenting her suitors.

[Jace21 he/him]

6 hours ago, Chull #445 said:

It is fully possible that Amaram was a cherished friend of her, and then something happened. That would explain her dislike of him, and him being so uncomfortable around her.

And Jasnah feels like a person who would recognize the skills/good attempts of someone she doesnt like as well.

Besides, who else could her friend be?

I agree that she would acknowledge the attempt of someone she doesnt like, but I dont think she'd refer to them as a friend.

I had always assumed her friend was wither female or an ardent. After all, the attempt included the scholarship angle, which is a feminine pursuit.

Doesnt she refer to the other members of the Veristitalians as her sisters? One of them could easily be the friend in question.

All this is a bit off topic though, I think Amamran is a possibility for man in her past but I doubt it, I am more of the opinion that we havent met them yet, if indeed we will.

Edited June 3, 2017 by Jace21
Just realised she said "he" about the friend. So I'm going with an Ardent.

[kari-no-sugata]

2 hours ago, maxal said:

Jasnah purposefully refused to marry. When Gavilar talked of marrying Jasnah to Amaram, she already was within her late twenties. Alethi marry within their teen years: Adolin speaks on how him not being married while being in his young twenties is considered shameful and generally viewed in a negative way. Hence, at 28, it is impossible for Amaram to have been Jasnah's major suitor, nor the first. He likely was yet another attempt from Gavilar to marry his daughter: it can't have been the first, it likely was the tenth is not more. I thus don't think Amaram did anything, I think Jasnah just decided a long time ago she would not marry and, given her age, she probably grew annoyed at seeing her father keeping on insisting on presenting her suitors.

Regarding Adolin's comment, if you're referring to this from WoR:

Quote

“The Almighty save a man when his female relatives collude about his future,” Adolin said with a sigh. “Sure, it’s all right for Jasnah to run about into her middle years without a spouse, but if I reach my twenty-third birthday without a bride, it’s like I’m some kind of menace. Sexist of her, don’t you think?”

I'd always taken this to be Adolin pointing out the irony of the situation with some wry humour. By itself, I don't think there's that much we can infer about the typical age of marriage for Alethi Lighteyes.

Incidentally, for historical data:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_European_marriage_pattern

Quote

 

From 1619 to 1660 in the archdiocese of Canterbury, England, the median age of the brides was 22 years and nine months while the median age for the grooms was 25 years and six months, with average ages of 24 years for the brides and nearly 28 years for the grooms, with the most common ages at marriage being 22 years for women and 24 years for men; the Church dictated that the age when one could marry without the consent of one's parents was 21 years. A large majority of English brides in this time were at least 19 years of age when they married, and only one bride in a thousand was thirteen years of age or younger.

William Shakespeare's drama Romeo and Juliet puts Juliet's age at just short of fourteen years; the idea of a woman marrying in secret at a very early age would have scandalized Elizabethans. The common belief in Elizabethan England was that motherhood before 16 was dangerous; popular manuals of health, as well as observations of married life, led Elizabethans to believe that early marriage and its consummation permanently damaged a young woman's health, impaired a young man's physical and mental development, and produced sickly or stunted children. Therefore, 18 came to be considered the earliest reasonable age for motherhood and 20 and 30 the ideal ages for women and men, respectively, to marry. Shakespeare might also have reduced Juliet's age from sixteen to fourteen to demonstrate the dangers of marriage at too young of an age; that Shakespeare himself married Anne Hathaway when he was just eighteen (very unusual for an Englishman of the time) might hold some significance.

 

 

[Stormlightning she/her]

It could be that Jasnah is like Renarin, meaning that her brokenness is more a result of inner turmoil that experience. I identify strongly with Jasnah on just about every aspect of her character, and suspect that if she took the 16 personalities test she would also come out an INFJ (haha, wouldn't that be fun to learn about everyone?). 

Navani mentions that since Jasnah was 5 years old, she's put distance between herself and her mother. That's definitely not normal, suggesting that from a young age she didn't identify with others like most children. Regardless of Jasnah's generally objective worldview, I think that would have a significant impact on her psyche and may well be related to why she never chose to marry. She just doesn't connect with people.

All of psychology and sociology agrees that a lack of connection to others is extremely damaging.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Stormlightning said:

It could be that Jasnah is like Renarin, meaning that her brokenness is more a result of inner turmoil that experience. I identify strongly with Jasnah on just about every aspect of her character, and suspect that if she took the 16 personalities test she would also come out an INFJ (haha, wouldn't that be fun to learn about everyone?). 

Navani mentions that since Jasnah was 5 years old, she's put distance between herself and her mother. That's definitely not normal, suggesting that from a young age she didn't identify with others like most children. Regardless of Jasnah's generally objective worldview, I think that would have a significant impact on her psyche and may well be related to why she never chose to marry. She just doesn't connect with people.

All of psychology and sociology agrees that a lack of connection to others is extremely damaging.

Considering the main criteria to be chosen by an Inkspren is to possess the ability to rationalize, think and make decision based on pure objectiveness without ever being clouded by feelings, I would strongly argue Jasnah is a INTJ and not a INFJ. She certainly isn't a F-type: her character might have emotions, but they never are the driver. They can't be, if they were, then she wouldn't be an Eslecaller. She thus can't be a F-type, I don't see how she can be knowing what characteristics Inkspren want into their knights.

As for Navani, it isn't when Jasnah was 5 she put distances, but when she became a teenager. Five is when she was full of questions and it just isn't an age where children would distanced themselves from their parents unless they are being mistreated, beaten and neglected. I personally suspect this event happened when she realized how much her mother had to give it to marry her father (scholarship, engineering). Just like many teenagers, she merely refused to follow into her mother's footsteps, maybe losing respect for her and going her own way, refusing to comprise her intellectual pursuit for any reason, especially not marriage as she would have identified it as the cause of her mother's loss.

I personally do not think Jasnah suffered from attachment issue: her father doted on her, her uncle doted on her, her mother loved her, she isn't lacking love. While her father did die, this event happened after she formed her bond. She could certainly connect with other scholars, but probably ended up in a pattern where the only individuals she could truly converse with were Ardents which sort of went sour when she became an atheist. Hence she became more solitary, but it does not mean she is displeased by it.

[Stormlightning she/her]

INTJ is totally what I meant, haha  I agree.

Thanks for the correct on the Navani thing. I couldn't quite remember how she put it, but that makes more sense since I was thinking about how that should have meant she was mistreated, which I don't believe she was. Being a teenager makes more sense.

I don't think she necessarily had attachment issues, just more that she may have chosen to distance herself from others because she didn't identify with them; like probably disagreeing with her mother's marriage and scholarship balance. Her attempted apology to Shallan after the 'suicide attempt' and some of her other lack of tact suggests that she doesn't always 'get' other people, which is what I mean by a lack of connection. It may not be as important to her to have connections with others since scholarship is such a high priority in her life, but I feel it had an impact internally, even if she may have pushed it away a lot. 

Mostly, i really like Renarin and the idea that internal struggles are often as real and meaningful as external ones. It's an aspect of all of Brandon's characters that I love, but that could be pursued more since even though Shallan and Kaladin also exhibit strong internal difficulties, it tends to be pushed under the rug by their more visible experiences. I'd like to see more characters whose battles are within themselves and not overshadowed by things outside of them, and I think Jasnah has that potential. It would be difficult to grasp, but the personal fight contrasted with her ability to be objective could be really interesting.

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Stormlightning said:

INTJ is totally what I meant, haha  I agree.

Thanks for the correct on the Navani thing. I couldn't quite remember how she put it, but that makes more sense since I was thinking about how that should have meant she was mistreated, which I don't believe she was. Being a teenager makes more sense.

I don't think she necessarily had attachment issues, just more that she may have chosen to distance herself from others because she didn't identify with them; like probably disagreeing with her mother's marriage and scholarship balance. Her attempted apology to Shallan after the 'suicide attempt' and some of her other lack of tact suggests that she doesn't always 'get' other people, which is what I mean by a lack of connection. It may not be as important to her to have connections with others since scholarship is such a high priority in her life, but I feel it had an impact internally, even if she may have pushed it away a lot. 

Mostly, i really like Renarin and the idea that internal struggles are often as real and meaningful as external ones. It's an aspect of all of Brandon's characters that I love, but that could be pursued more since even though Shallan and Kaladin also exhibit strong internal difficulties, it tends to be pushed under the rug by their more visible experiences. I'd like to see more characters whose battles are within themselves and not overshadowed by things outside of them, and I think Jasnah has that potential. It would be difficult to grasp, but the personal fight contrasted with her ability to be objective could be really interesting.

 

 I agree with your post. You really did confuse me here for a while.

Yes, your second paragraph does make sense. It is entirely plausible for Jasnah, clearly being within her league of her own with her mental capacities, to have a hard time connecting with others. Not on purpose though. While I did read Jasnah as cold, I did not feel she was dismissive of other people's wits, just not interested in discussing with people not in par with her. It must have indeed be a lonely life. It also befits what Gavilar did tell Jasnah during her prologue: "Aren't you bored with us normal people?" or something along those lines.

I agree about internal struggles being as interesting as external ones. I would argue while Kaladin does have his own internal issues, his hardships always happened out of circumstances he could hardly control: it isn't his fault Roshone was sent to Heartstone, it isn't his fault he took a dislike of his father, it isn't his fault Tien was sent to war, it isn't his fault Tien was killed, it isn't his fault Amaram betrayed him, it isn't his fault he ended up as a bridgeman (well not entirely, had he presumably been a good obedient slave, he would have never ended up there, but hey, we can't really fault him for that), it isn't his fault Elhokar is so petty he puts him in prison for weeks, it isn't his fault he has depression and so on. Shallan's hardships also mostly are external: it isn't her fault her mother tried to kill her, it isn't her fault her father was abusive, but she's pretty much responsible for the rest 

What I personally find interesting are characters such as Adolin where his future hardships are all on him: it is his fault and no one else. No excuses. Hopefully, Renarin will follow a similar path. While it isn't his fault he was born with a disability, but it is his fault he chose not to try to work with what he's got. My hopes for his character is to find his way, his path, to realize he can be useful even if he isn't a soldier. I want him to develop craftiness which comes to those being born with a disadvantage. I would find it interesting if his character's resolution came from him and not from outside sources.

[kari-no-sugata]

Hmm, here's an idea (with no specific evidence).

If the Edgecaller spren are attracted to those who put reality/logic before emotion (as we see Jasnah doing in her viewpoint at the start of WoR) then their Oaths are probably related. It would be a very good fit for more "scientific" types, focusing on the facts and what has well-founded evidence rather than what you'd prefer to believe (or would be inconvenient to be true). Jasnah has been heading down this path all her life it seems and it could even be the source of her "heartbreak" - maybe she refused to compromise her fact based approach with someone she had gotten close to. ie the relationship fell apart for the same reason that Ivory was attracted to her.

This is not to say that there might be other events that have given her grief in the past.

[kari-no-sugata]

Follow-up idea on the above...

In tWoK, after Jasnah kills the thieves and Shallan swaps the Soulcasters, Jasnah isn't seen doing any Soulcasting for some time. IIRC there's never been an explanation for this. Here's a fairly counter-intuitive idea: while Jasnah seems cold while doing this, there is definitely a degree of emotion involved as well - maybe Jasnah's reasons for killing the thieves was more than just pure reasoning. Maybe anger motivated her as well (whether because of something that happened in her past or because she simply didn't like what the thieves were doing). In which case, it's quite possible that Ivory and Jasnah had a falling out over the incident because Jasnah was overly motivated by emotion (!)

[Guest]

8 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

Hmm, here's an idea (with no specific evidence).

If the Edgecaller spren are attracted to those who put reality/logic before emotion (as we see Jasnah doing in her viewpoint at the start of WoR) then their Oaths are probably related. It would be a very good fit for more "scientific" types, focusing on the facts and what has well-founded evidence rather than what you'd prefer to believe (or would be inconvenient to be true). Jasnah has been heading down this path all her life it seems and it could even be the source of her "heartbreak" - maybe she refused to compromise her fact based approach with someone she had gotten close to. ie the relationship fell apart for the same reason that Ivory was attracted to her.

This is not to say that there might be other events that have given her grief in the past.

This post echos some of my own thoughts which means I am 100% in accordance with it. My personal thoughts, when it comes to the breaking required to gain the ability to form a Nahel bond, is it doesn't have traumatic. It however needs to trial your convictions. I thus think it wasn't Tien dying which enabled Kaladin to become a Windrunner, but the fact he afterwards chose to dedicate his life towards protecting other helpless youths within the army. I also think it wasn't Jasnah's rational search for the truth which marked her as an Elsecaller, but the fact she stick to it after finding her society's greatest belief is a lie. The strain to have to stand within the face of society when she declared there just aren't enough evidence which supports Vorinism for her to believe in it anymore must have been gigantic. For most societies, religious beliefs are nothing less but sacred, you do not get to dispute them, to contradict them, to critic them. I need no more evidence of Jasnah having lived through enough strain to gain the ability to form a Nahel bond.

So while yes, there might have been other events within her past, this seems to be the main culprit.

7 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

Follow-up idea on the above...

In tWoK, after Jasnah kills the thieves and Shallan swaps the Soulcasters, Jasnah isn't seen doing any Soulcasting for some time. IIRC there's never been an explanation for this. Here's a fairly counter-intuitive idea: while Jasnah seems cold while doing this, there is definitely a degree of emotion involved as well - maybe Jasnah's reasons for killing the thieves was more than just pure reasoning. Maybe anger motivated her as well (whether because of something that happened in her past or because she simply didn't like what the thieves were doing). In which case, it's quite possible that Ivory and Jasnah had a falling out over the incident because Jasnah was overly motivated by emotion (!)

Fair point. I made the same one a few posts above or I launched the idea Ivory might not have been fine with it. We honestly do not know, but we can guess it wasn't a bond breaking event.

[kari-no-sugata]

19 hours ago, maxal said:

This post echos some of my own thoughts which means I am 100% in accordance with it. My personal thoughts, when it comes to the breaking required to gain the ability to form a Nahel bond, is it doesn't have traumatic. It however needs to trial your convictions. I thus think it wasn't Tien dying which enabled Kaladin to become a Windrunner, but the fact he afterwards chose to dedicate his life towards protecting other helpless youths within the army. I also think it wasn't Jasnah's rational search for the truth which marked her as an Elsecaller, but the fact she stick to it after finding her society's greatest belief is a lie. The strain to have to stand within the face of society when she declared there just aren't enough evidence which supports Vorinism for her to believe in it anymore must have been gigantic. For most societies, religious beliefs are nothing less but sacred, you do not get to dispute them, to contradict them, to critic them. I need no more evidence of Jasnah having lived through enough strain to gain the ability to form a Nahel bond.

So while yes, there might have been other events within her past, this seems to be the main culprit.

Hmm. I think if someone is taking action and is reasonably happy with both the steps required and the results then that would not put cracks in their Spiritweb. Jasnah didn't seem at all traumatised or anything after announcing herself to be a heretic. In her case, I could imagine that some possible steps leading up to that event could have been traumatic though. So for Jasnah, I'd say that publicly declaring herself a heretic isn't what "cracked" her but would instead be part of what attracted Ivory. But maybe privately declaring herself to be a heretic to someone she trusted or cared about knowing it would end their relationship could have cracked her.

For other proto Radiants in other scenarios, maybe doing such a thing would have been traumatic enough to put cracks in their Spiritweb though. It  depends upon the person and the situation. In some cases it could be an "event" that puts in the cracks, for others it could be the realisation that a certain thing needs to be done despite the costs, or it could be that carrying out that decision is so stressful that it causes cracks. In Kaladin's case, taking action to protect others like Tien is what attracted Syl - while doing that was probably a painful reminder I don't think it was painful enough to put cracks in his Spiritweb. For someone like Renarin, maybe doing what Jasnah did (declaring herself a heretic so publicly) would have been stressful enough to "crack" him. Despite already being "cracked" I'm sure that Shallan's decision and actions in killing her mother put further cracks into her.

So while I'm not sure I agree with your specific examples, I would agree that any action or decision that causes sufficient stress could crack someone's Spiritweb. Essentially, any kind of stress could do it, if it's big enough - it could be external or internal, physical or emotional, seeing an action done or taking action, or even making a decision.
 

19 hours ago, maxal said:

Fair point. I made the same one a few posts above or I launched the idea Ivory might not have been fine with it. We honestly do not know, but we can guess it wasn't a bond breaking event.

Ah, when you said this:

On 03/06/2017 at 2:09 PM, maxal said:

While there may have been emotions involve which she killed the thugs, the decision to seek them out might have been made with a purely rational mind. Still, either way I would point out we weren't privy to Ivory's reaction: he might not have agreed, though it seems unlikely.

I wasn't sure exactly what you meant by that at the time but it's clearer now. It would be an interesting reveal for Ivory to have disagreed with Jasnah's actions but for (more or less) the opposite reason of what most people would have guessed.

On a side note, Ivory seems to have been deliberately quite harsh with Jasnah initially. It feels like he was deliberately putting her through the wringer to see how she'd react. And by dealing with the situations with relative calm, Jasnah passed.

[PallonianFire he/him]

I think people are forgetting here that cracks can be inherently part of the Spirit Web. Kaladin has Seasonal Affective Disorder; Renarin is on the autism spectrum. Obviously it's a touchy subject (and Brandon spoke at length about his intentions with this when I asked him about it at JordanCon last year), but having mental or psychological disorders can cause cracks just as much as physical or emotional trauma.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

Hmm. I think if someone is taking action and is reasonably happy with both the steps required and the results then that would not put cracks in their Spiritweb. 

I meant taking actions despite adversity, being faced with difficulties which makes staying true to one course of action unbelievably hard. I could be argued without Tien's death, Kaladin would have never dedicated himself towards protecting the young: his hardship was both his breaking point and his salvation.

4 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

Jasnah didn't seem at all traumatised or anything after announcing herself to be a heretic. In her case, I could imagine that some possible steps leading up to that event could have been traumatic though. So for Jasnah, I'd say that publicly declaring herself a heretic isn't what "cracked" her but would instead be part of what attracted Ivory. But maybe privately declaring herself to be a heretic to someone she trusted or cared about knowing it would end their relationship could have cracked her.

To be honest, we did not read the scene where Jasnah made the big revelation, we only read her thinking about it. While it is true she did not sound traumatized, she did imply it was a "big deal" for her to claim at being an atheist. I however agree there is likely more to the story then we have been privy to so far. It seems reasonable to think her revelation had other consequences than having society look down on her. I may have been linked to either her previous ward and/or this Ardent she did mention, but I do agree additional loss seems likely.

4 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

For other proto Radiants in other scenarios, maybe doing such a thing would have been traumatic enough to put cracks in their Spiritweb though. It  depends upon the person and the situation. In some cases it could be an "event" that puts in the cracks, for others it could be the realisation that a certain thing needs to be done despite the costs, or it could be that carrying out that decision is so stressful that it causes cracks. In Kaladin's case, taking action to protect others like Tien is what attracted Syl - while doing that was probably a painful reminder I don't think it was painful enough to put cracks in his Spiritweb. For someone like Renarin, maybe doing what Jasnah did (declaring herself a heretic so publicly) would have been stressful enough to "crack" him. Despite already being "cracked" I'm sure that Shallan's decision and actions in killing her mother put further cracks into her.

So while I'm not sure I agree with your specific examples, I would agree that any action or decision that causes sufficient stress could crack someone's Spiritweb. Essentially, any kind of stress could do it, if it's big enough - it could be external or internal, physical or emotional, seeing an action done or taking action, or even making a decision.

I would argue cracks are what results when hard decisions are being made: be them caused by events or internal struggle they are harsh enough a given individual feels he/she ought to give up. Obviously, it does depend on the individual as one hardship might break down one, but not the other. In Kaladin's case, I think it was highlighted in a pretty strong way Tien is the cause of his initial breakdown. Brandon did orchestrate Kaladin's flashback around Tien's death, Kaladin does spend quite a bit of time reflecting upon Tien's death: I say his brother dying and the subsequent feeling of failure which followed most definitely was a hardship strong enough to crack Kaladin. Just the way he keeps on thinking Tien throughout the books... It is just not the same as Adolin thinking about his mother for instance.

Renarin is a hard one as we never truly gotten the rational for him becoming a Radiant. We are left with too many holes to fill in. What has he done to distinguished himself? Other Truthwatchers have been solitary individuals, recluses, but all have been doing small scale good around them. What has Renarin done to attract the attention of a spren apart from being Dalinar's son? I can see why he is cracked, but why he was chosen, this one still needs more explaining.

My point was while "something" has to cause the cracking, the difference in between Radiants and non-Radiants are Radiants are those who stick to their values, who keep on trying, who stay true to their convictions. Being "broken" is not enough, it is not nearly enough: how you deal with it makes all the difference, I think.

4 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

I wasn't sure exactly what you meant by that at the time but it's clearer now. It would be an interesting reveal for Ivory to have disagreed with Jasnah's actions but for (more or less) the opposite reason of what most people would have guessed.

On a side note, Ivory seems to have been deliberately quite harsh with Jasnah initially. It feels like he was deliberately putting her through the wringer to see how she'd react. And by dealing with the situations with relative calm, Jasnah passed.

I have been wondering is some sprens weren't purposefully hard on their knights in order to test them, to push them, to force them to take the next step. 

4 hours ago, PallonianFire said:

I think people are forgetting here that cracks can be inherently part of the Spirit Web. Kaladin has Seasonal Affective Disorder; Renarin is on the autism spectrum. Obviously it's a touchy subject (and Brandon spoke at length about his intentions with this when I asked him about it at JordanCon last year), but having mental or psychological disorders can cause cracks just as much as physical or emotional trauma.

Having a mental disorders can certainly cause the required cracking, but it also might not. My thoughts are having a disability which causes hardship is not enough: your behavior, your conviction must align themselves with one of the order. Hence, Renarin must have done something, even if we didn't see it.

[PallonianFire he/him]

13 hours ago, maxal said:

Having a mental disorders can certainly cause the required cracking, but it also might not. My thoughts are having a disability which causes hardship is not enough: your behavior, your conviction must align themselves with one of the order. Hence, Renarin must have done something, even if we didn't see it.

Brandon himself says it does, so...

 

Quote

QUESTION

If a Shard were to heal the cracks in someone’s Spiritweb, like Saze did with Spook, and that person who was getting healed has a Nahel bond, would that break the bond?

BRANDON SANDERSON

No, because the Nahel bond is already filling in those cracks, so you would have to rip it off to put something else in there.

QUESTION

So the Shard wouldn’t be able to heal…?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Well, the Shard...Like, here’s the thing we have to get at with this, what we’re getting at, which is the question of, for instance, is Kaladin’s depression a flaw in him that needs to be healed? And that is a question for philosophers. There are certainly people in the Cosmere and outside the Cosmere that say yes, this needs to be healed, but what about somebody who’s...say, someone who is autistic, and their mind just works in a different way, and this way allows a certain bond to happen that couldn’t otherwise happen? Is that a flaw, or - is it a bug or a feature, to speak in coding terms? Is what’s up with Kaladin a bug or a feature? I know that my wife would probably get rid of her depression if she could, but it’s also fundamental in how she sees the world and who she is, would that change her into a different person? And things like this. So, I want you when you discuss this, to be very careful about treating mental illness as a flaw as opposed to an aspect of a human personality that allows certain different things to happen. Does that make sense?

Right there, Brandon says that Kaladin's cracks are due to his depression.