Jasnah's heartbreak?

[StormblessDave]

So Jasnah is a radiant,are there any theories as to how she was broken enough to bond with a Spren?

Sidenote:Is it just me or is something really weird going on in that family?It looks like elhokar might be getting radiancy,jasnah already is one and so is Dalinar and Renarin,is this just coincidence or something more?

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, StormblessDave said:

So Jasnah is a radiant,are there any theories as to how she was broken enough to bond with a Spren?

Sidenote:Is it just me or is something really weird going on in that family?It looks like elhokar might be getting radiancy,jasnah already is one and so is Dalinar and Renarin,is this just coincidence or something more?

We have no idea about Jasnah: a lot of theories have been launched throughout the years, but we have very little material to work with, so all is pure speculation.

As for many Kholins being Radiants, this has been explained. Most sprens prefer to chose individuals standing at the forefront of events as opposed to recluse, hence they were attracted to the Kholin family. Also, knowing one Radiants increased one's chances of becoming one as sprens tend to concentrate around existing Radiants. 

[StormblessDave]

I see,yeah that makes sense,that means there should be a few radiants among the bridge 4,all of them are broken men and have been around Kaladin,hint The Lopen hint 

Edited May 31, 2017 by StormblessDave

[platnumkid]

I personally hate that Radiants have to be broken.  Why can't a normal good guy become a radiant.  Why can't some Vizier of Azir who's just politely going about his bureaucratic duties near the forefront of events be a truthwatcher?  Or Hamm a thug with the heart of a philosopher, if he was born on Roshar why couldn't he become a stoneward?

It's the way it is so I got to live with it.

Regarding the OP, what Maxal said

[Calderis he/him]

3 minutes ago, platnumkid said:

I personally hate that Radiants have to be broken.  Why can't a normal good guy become a radiant.  Why can't some Vizier of Azir who's just politely going about his bureaucratic duties near the forefront of events be a truthwatcher?  Or Hamm a thug with the heart of a philosopher, if he was born on Roshar why couldn't he become a stoneward?

It's the way it is so I got to live with it.

Regarding the OP, what Maxal said

Allomancers have to snap to. If Hamm were on Roshar he'd have been eligible. 

The "broken" requirement is a part of the Cosmere, not just Roshar.

As far as the OP goes... The alley scene and Shallan's "what happened to you?" thought after makes me think she was abused somehow... 

Edited May 31, 2017 by Calderis

[+Extesian he/him]

Unfortunately, Adonalsium loves a good plot. 

[Calderis he/him]

6 minutes ago, Extesian said:

Unfortunately, Adonalsium loves a good plot. 

As cruel as his creation is, I love him for it. 

[cometaryorbit]

28 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Allomancers have to snap to. If Hamm were on Roshar he'd have been eligible. 

The "broken" requirement is a part of the Cosmere, not just Roshar.

Yeah. I don't think all KRs have to have Kaladin and Shallan-level tragedies in their past.

That 'soul crack' needs to be there for the spren's Investiture to get in, but we don't know what the threshold is for that.

[Calderis he/him]

32 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Yeah. I don't think all KRs have to have Kaladin and Shallan-level tragedies in their past.

That 'soul crack' needs to be there for the spren's Investiture to get in, but we don't know what the threshold is for that.

Yeah. I mean, not trying to make light of this by any means, Renarin is broken too, and the main culprit I can see is losing his mom. 

Kaladin literally went to war to try and save his brother, failed and lay cradling his brother's cooling corpse. 

Losing your parent is tough, but Kaladin's breaking is heart wrenching. 

We don't know what happened with Shallan. Everything we've seen is after Pattern, and if it's somehow worse than the rest of her story than at that point Brandon would just be being cruel for the sake of it, and I can't imagine it. 

Lift... I mean she's a young street orphan, enough said... 

"breaking" doesn't have to be a gut wrenchingly horrible thing. It can just be... Well human. I think everyone is broken in some way. What matters is how well you pick up the pieces and keep moving. 

I know how my life's been, and that's always been my goal. 

[+Extesian he/him]

What's interesting about Jasnah is the bond was starting the night of Gavilar's assassination already. She was certainly not 'normal', she was planning to assassinate her sister-in-law. But that was before her father was killed so she must have already been sufficiently messed up. I think backstory is really needed as she had even less reason than Renarin to be broken.

[Calderis he/him]

3 minutes ago, Extesian said:

What's interesting about Jasnah is the bond was starting the night of Gavilar's assassination already. She was certainly not 'normal', she was planning to assassinate her sister-in-law. But that was before her father was killed so she must have already been sufficiently messed up. I think backstory is really needed as she had even less reason than Renarin to be broken.

Her out of character emotion in regards to "men like them" after the alley really makes me think there's something there. 

And maybe it's just my bias (deserved dammit), but I've always thought that Amaram is involved in that somehow. 

[StormblessDave]

4 minutes ago, Calderis said:

 

And maybe it's just my bias (deserved dammit), but I've always thought that Amaram is involved in that somehow. 

She was supposed to get married to him,right?btw there's something different about Kal,yes his breaking was very intense but didn't Brandon say there was something different about him?

[Reborn radiant]

I really hope jasnah isn't sexually abused. I hope she is broken in some other way. sexual abuse is overused (no offense to the victims, I am speaking from purely story telling POV) and there are many more problems women face. I hope she is broken in some other way.

[Calderis he/him]

4 minutes ago, StormblessDave said:

She was supposed to get married to him,right?btw there's something different about Kal,yes his breaking was very intense but didn't Brandon say there was something different about him?

Gavilar wanted it. Jasnah didn't. 

Yes he did say there's something different about Kaladin. I currently have a thread going about just that topic. It could have something to do with his breaking being so much more intense than normal. I'd never considered that aspect of it. My take on it is a bit different though. 

Edited May 31, 2017 by Calderis

[Yata he/him]

2 hours ago, Reborn radiant said:

I really hope jasnah isn't sexually abused. I hope she is broken in some other way. sexual abuse is overused (no offense to the victims, I am speaking from purely story telling POV) and there are many more problems women face. I hope she is broken in some other way.

It could be not really sexal abused, but the whole point to be saw as "mate material" over time could broke her.

She is a real Logic and not Emotional people. Maybe She interpreted men's interess in a way that hurt her.

Also because, who is so fool to actual do something to the King's daugher? The Blackthorn's nephew.

She could broke under society's expectation

Edited May 31, 2017 by Yata

[StormblessDave]

36 minutes ago, Yata said:

It could be not really sexal abused, but the whole point to be saw as "mate material" over time could broke her.

She is a real Logic and not Emotional people. Maybe She interpreted men's interess in a way that hurt her.

Also because, who is so fool to actual do something to the King's daugher? The Blackthorn's nephew.

She could broke under society's expectation

Yeah Kal and shallans histories are crazy intense when you compare it to the others,is that why syl is the only honor spren bonded and pattern the only cryptic?

[Ciridae]

If snapping on Scadrial is the same as breaking on Roshar in terms of how open the person is afterwards for investiture to get in, then anyone has the potential to become a Radiant without having any tragedy in their life. 

HoA spoilers:

Spoiler

"What made him choose this girl? Was it because she was a Mistborn? Was it because she had Snapped so early in life, coming to her powers even as she went through the pains of the unusually difficult labor her mother went through to bear her?"

So while Vin undoubtedly had enough hardship in her life to snap her, she snapped at birth.  We don't know the specifics of the difficult labour, but if you were born, you could have cracks.

 Someone may have lived a perfectly happy and sheltered life and still be broken enough.

I don't believe this is the reason why any of our main Radiants are broken, but it may explain why some of the minor Radiants come to their powers. 

That said, I agree that there are a lot of things in life that can hurt someone enough to result in cracking. It probably also varies from person to person. 

[windrunningmistborn]

I think there is significant indication of being a victim of some sort. At least one bit after the "philosophy lesson" suggest this.

Quote

Jasnah leaned back, watching the city pass. "I did not do this just to prove a point, child. I have been feeling for some time that I have been taking advantage of His Majesty's hospitality. He doesn't realize how much trouble he could have for allying himself with me. Besides, men like those..."

What was done to you? Shallan wondered with horror. And who did it?

Of course, one doesn't need to be a victim themselves to be broken by it - witnessing horrors can be enough by itself. We may never get to find out, there's only so much a reader can stomach, and like Vin, you don't always need a complete picture to see the truth in it. 

[kari-no-sugata]

3 hours ago, StormblessDave said:

Yeah Kal and shallans histories are crazy intense when you compare it to the others,is that why syl is the only honor spren bonded and pattern the only cryptic?

Pattern says he was the one who was sent, somewhat implying that he was the only one sent (at the time).

For the Honorspren, the Stormfather had banned them from bonding and only Syl has disobeyed.

I certainly wouldn't consider them to be typical candidates.

 

2 hours ago, Ciridae said:

If snapping on Scadrial is the same as breaking on Roshar in terms of how open the person is afterwards for investiture to get in, then anyone has the potential to become a Radiant without having any tragedy in their life. 

I believe it's not "the same" but has similar underlying principals combined with local variations - ie it's similar but different. Also, on Scadrial, once you've Snapped then you're sorted. On Roshar, it's more of a starting condition (and not the only one).

 

2 hours ago, Ciridae said:

 Someone may have lived a perfectly happy and sheltered life and still be broken enough.

I don't believe this is the reason why any of our main Radiants are broken, but it may explain why some of the minor Radiants come to their powers. 

That said, I agree that there are a lot of things in life that can hurt someone enough to result in cracking. It probably also varies from person to person. 

On Roshar there's probably a "Goldilocks zone" of how "cracked" a Radiant candidate is. If they've cracked too much they'd actually be too broken to become a Radiant (they would fail at the Oaths). If they're not cracked enough then a stable bond cannot be formed. I have no idea if spren can determine such things in advance.

[Calderis he/him]

@Ciridae

Mistborn spoilers 

Spoiler

We can also pretty much guarantee "breaking"  is going to differ on different Shardworlds because it changed between era 1 and era 2. 

Snapping was much more difficult in era 1

 

[Stark he/him]

12 hours ago, StormblessDave said:

are there any theories as to how she was broken enough to bond with a Spren?

I think for me, the biggest hint as to what would Have "broken" Jasnah, or at least cracked her enough to make her a candidate, was the scene in the alley with Shallan.  The magnitude of her response to the thugs, how she sought them out and destroyed them without mercy seems to point towards an event in her past that would justify this stance.

 

10 hours ago, Reborn radiant said:

I really hope jasnah isn't sexually abused

I do not believe that she was sexually assaulted, if for no other reason than Brandon himself has stated that he finds sexual assault to be an overused tool in fantasy.  Especially when it comes to bringing female characters to their "lowest" point in their character arcs, or personal history.He explains it better in his annotations for Warbreaker (Warbreaker Annotations).  But she may have known someone in her childhood who was mugged and murdered in an alley, and that emotional trauma would be enough to "break" her, if she was close enough to the person.  I could definitely see that leaving a vigilante streak in someone when it comes to those that would prey on people trying to get home.

[Ciridae]

@kari-no-sugata, those are good points, I agree. About figuring out in advance, if they are too broken but don't live by the ideals then they wouldn't attract a spren in the first place. If they were not cracked enough, I don't know...I believe they would attract the spren, but if the spren found no way to bond it might hover around and wait for a while and see if something causes that person to crack. I've seen speculation that this is happening to Elhokar, but I don't know if I buy it. 

@Calderis,

Spoiler

Good point, but I would say that, unless Preservation made it extra difficult to snap, 1st era snapping is the 'standard'. I absolutely agree that it may vary from world to world, but it is an underlying mechanic of cosmere magic so I would be surprised if there were large discrepancies in how cracks form. It is interesting that you can artificially lower the threshold, but that only strengthens my point that cracks wont always be the result of the types of trauma we see most proto radiants go through

 

I only wanted to provide an alternative to the discussion for possible cracking scenarios. I'm not saying that I believe it applies to Jasnah, but I do stand by my belief that birth-breaking could happen to anyone and it would probably make them eligible to bond a spren.

Sorry for getting off topic. 

[+Wax he/him]

I don't agree with a view that being broken was a precursor to attracting spren.

Shallan and Pattern were there together before the incident with Shallan's mother.  In fact, the signs Shallan was showing precipitated the incident.  

Similarly, I think there was a scene where Kaladin wondered about the edge he had even when training in Hearthstone or after joining the army.  He also says, along the lines of winds always being with him and claiming the wind.

Yes, they all got broken in the end, but, what really could have broken Jasnah been the various murder attempts, including the last one.

 

 

[Calderis he/him]

14 minutes ago, axcellence said:

I don't agree with a view that being broken was a precursor to attracting spren.

Shallan and Pattern were there together before the incident with Shallan's mother.  In fact, the signs Shallan was showing precipitated the incident.  

Similarly, I think there was a scene where Kaladin wondered about the edge he had even when training in Hearthstone or after joining the army.  He also says, along the lines of winds always being with him and claiming the wind.

Yes, they all got broken in the end, but, what really could have broken Jasnah been the various murder attempts, including the last one.

 

 

The needing to be broken before a spren can come isn't a theory. It's confirmed by Brandon

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1083#10

Quote

JEREMY

We know that Mistborn needed to Snap, and Surgebinders needed have the cracks in their souls filled. But what about the people in Warbreaker or Elantris? Is cracking and snapping only required on certain worlds?

BRANDON SANDERSON (PARAPHRASED)

This is universal to the cosmere; however, in certain magic systems / on certain worlds, this is easier than others.

TAGS

snapping

 

[Guest]

18 hours ago, platnumkid said:

I personally hate that Radiants have to be broken.  Why can't a normal good guy become a radiant.  Why can't some Vizier of Azir who's just politely going about his bureaucratic duties near the forefront of events be a truthwatcher?  Or Hamm a thug with the heart of a philosopher, if he was born on Roshar why couldn't he become a stoneward?

It's the way it is so I got to live with it.

Regarding the OP, what Maxal said

While it is true one's soul needs to be cracked in order for the Nahel bond to take place, I do think we may have been putting too much emphasis on the need to be broken. Kaladin and Shallan's stories are both horrific and, I strongly suspect, out of the ordinary for an average knight. In shorts, to echo other posters, while the brokenness is required, too much of it definitely destroys a given individual's chances of sustaining a Nahel bond. The best example would be Shallan whom was chosen before she murdered her mother, hence presented the required patterns for a bond to form itself, but upon those horrific later events, she regressed to the point where she nearly killed Pattern. Another example would be Kaladin whom was chosen after Tien was killed, but regressed and broke down so hard with his subsequent betrayal/slavery he killed Syl.  Those two can't have been your average knight as it seems implausible for each knight's progression to involve killing or near killing your spren.

Hence, not all knights had traumatic past and it may very well be your kind Vizir once was a contender. It may be the strain to rule an empire, the hardship to know how many people depends on you is enough to break one's soul large enough to form a bond. Not all Radiants were former slaves beaten to near death.

22 minutes ago, axcellence said:

I don't agree with a view that being broken was a precursor to attracting spren.

Shallan and Pattern were there together before the incident with Shallan's mother.  In fact, the signs Shallan was showing precipitated the incident.  

Similarly, I think there was a scene where Kaladin wondered about the edge he had even when training in Hearthstone or after joining the army.  He also says, along the lines of winds always being with him and claiming the wind.

Yes, they all got broken in the end, but, what really could have broken Jasnah been the various murder attempts, including the last one.

I agree in part with this post. I agree it is unlikely sprens are looking for "broken" individuals when they are out to find a new knight. I believe it is more likely they are looking for individuals exhibiting the right qualities such as being protective for a Windrunner, being creative for a Lightweaver and, in the case of Elsecallers, the ability to avoid one's emotions to cloud one's judgement (this was confirmed by WoB). The brokenness merely is what happens to all individuals straining to maintain a given standard within an imperfect world and while for some it is more brutal (Kaladin, Shallan), for others it merely is the strain of being different (Renarin).

In the specific case of Jasnah, I do believe she gave us the answer herself within her prologue. She stated how the world hasn't been ready for the king's daughter to be a heretic which underlines it has been hard for her to stay strong with her line of thinking. I do think it was her ability to seek the truth, independently of how she felt about it (surely Jasnah would have preferred to find strong evidences of divinity, not heresays and tales: it would have made her life easier) is what attracted Ivory. The hardship of having to fight against Vorinism and basically everyone else is what allowed the bond to form itself. 

17 hours ago, Calderis said:

Yeah. I mean, not trying to make light of this by any means, Renarin is broken too, and the main culprit I can see is losing his mom. 

I don't think so... I sensed no nostalgia nor hidden feelings whenever Renarin mentions his mother. Besides, it is Adolin who yearns for Navani's attentions and carries a memento: if one brother was more affected, I would bet on him and not Renarin. However, since Brandon is writing mother's death from Dalinar's viewpoint, then we can guess it was him this event turned out being the most significant and not his sons.

I think Renarin's issues are with himself. He is different. He felt different and while he bathed in deep love, his father did over-protect him to the point where Renarin grew up thinking there was nothing he could do which would be useful.