theory The secret that broke the Knights Radiant

[CaptainRyan]

Hey 17th Shard,

My best friend shared with me an interesting theory that I wanted to run past you. He is not much for the forums but he did say he would be OK if I shared it here. I took his idea and built up a quick assumption list to help solidify his insight.

Assumptions:
1. Bondsmiths can make and break Nahel, and other, bonds between a person and a spren. This assumption is not, necessarily, pivotal to the theory but perhaps the Bondsmiths are the ones who figured out what to do.
2. There is some sort of fundamental, underlying principles that dictate how these bonds are formed. Perhaps it is the innate system of the Rosharan system that makes the rule, perhaps Honor/Cultivation have a hand in it, perhaps it is a mix of those two, or perhaps it is something else altogether. Whatever the reason is, I do not think it is too big of a stretch to say that Brandon would create governing principles for the Rosharan magic systems.
3. The Knights Radiant of old (pre-Recreance) knew that Parshendi (or Parshmen) were Voidbringers. Or, since there is some debate about what a Voidbringer actually is, we might say that the Knights Radiant of old were aware that Parshendi/Parshmen were involved, somehow, with Desolations and Voidbringers. 

Theory:
The Knights Radiant, knowing that Parshendi were related to the Desolations/Voidbringers (see assumption 3), discovered a way to break (see assumption 1) the underlying magical principle (see assumption 2) that allowed Parshendi to bond with Voidspren. In doing so, however, they also had to break their own bonds as well because the underlying principle applied to both their Nahel bond and the Parshendi bond. The Recreance was a direct result of the Knights Radiant deciding to give up their bonds because they thought it would forever prevent the Voidspren from bonding with the Parshendi again.

We know that one Order of Radiants (possibly the Skybreakers) secretly kept their bonds which means that whatever a Bondsmith (see assumption 1) did to break the underlying principle (see assumption 2) was not completely successful - either due to the Order that secretly refused or perhaps because the Bondsmith just did something wrong. This mistake/accident/betrayal meant that some of the Parshendi remained Parshendi (Eshonai's people) and most turned into the Parshmen.

This also means that the line in the Diagram about Taravangian possibly reusing the secret that broke the Radiants before could be referring to this. If the current Radiants were told that they could break all of the Voidspren's bonds with Parshendi by sacrificing their spren what would Kaladin, Shallan, and the others do? Could they justify to themselves not doing this? If they could save the world by sacrificing their spren... well, I think it would be hard for them to refuse.

 

What say you Sharders? Is it possible that the Recreance was caused by the Knights Radiant delibrately trying to break the bonding process so that Parshendi could never again join with a Voidspren?

[lookupwards]

Pretty interesting theory.  Seems like plausible logic to me  I like it. 

[The One Who Connects]

1 hour ago, CaptainRyan said:

Is it possible that the Recreance was caused by the Knights Radiant deliberately trying to break the bonding process so that Parshendi could never again join with a Voidspren?

We'll have to see about the timeframe of breaking the Parshendi bonds and/or the Recreance (hoping we learn more in Oathbringer) but otherwise, not too bad of an idea

Edited May 18, 2017 by The One Who Connects

[Jedal]

This could also mean that there are specific "tribes" of Parshendi like Orders of Radiants. IF Voidbinding has Orders, then maybe each one corrosponds to a Radiant Order? That could explain why Eshonai's people kept their powers.

[galendo]

Maybe, but it'd be a weird sort of symmetry.  There doesn't seem to be any particular indication that Eshonai's people are limited in growth at particular times or any indication that Parshendi ever have Parshmen children, so it clearly isn't a one-to-one thing (i.e., one Radiant bond is not equal to one Parshendi -- there are likely many more Parshendi than Radiants).  Plus, even if all the Radiants did break oath, including the one order that didn't, there's no particular reason I can see why that would stop future Radiant spren from forming new bonds with new Knights.

So...it's possible, I guess, but it doesn't seem very likely.  Any plan that requires for its success that 100% of all Radiants break oath seems doomed to failure, and I'd think that would be reasonably obvious.  In fact, I'd consider anyone who took such an extreme action while relying on such a dubious plan to be a complete idiot.  I'd hate to think that 90% of all Radiants were utter fools.

[CaptainRyan]

1 hour ago, galendo said:

Maybe, but it'd be a weird sort of symmetry.  There doesn't seem to be any particular indication that Eshonai's people are limited in growth at particular times or any indication that Parshendi ever have Parshmen children, so it clearly isn't a one-to-one thing (i.e., one Radiant bond is not equal to one Parshendi -- there are likely many more Parshendi than Radiants).  Plus, even if all the Radiants did break oath, including the one order that didn't, there's no particular reason I can see why that would stop future Radiant spren from forming new bonds with new Knights.

Perhaps I was not clear. It is not that breaking Radiant bonds somehow also breaks Parshendi bonds but rather that the underlying principle of bonding itself was broken. Whatever magical properties allow sentient humanoids to bond with spren was disrupted somehow.

1 hour ago, galendo said:

Any plan that requires for its success that 100% of all Radiants break oath seems doomed to failure, and I'd think that would be reasonably obvious.

If the Radiants firmly believed they could stop the Voidbringers by giving up their oaths then I think that would be a decision they would support. Especially if there was some sort of "divine" sanction on the idea - either a Herald or a Shard giving their approval. Maybe Ishar is even more to blame than we suspect?

[galendo]

2 hours ago, CaptainRyan said:

Perhaps I was not clear. It is not that breaking Radiant bonds somehow also breaks Parshendi bonds but rather that the underlying principle of bonding itself was broken. Whatever magical properties allow sentient humanoids to bond with spren was disrupted somehow.

But then why would the Radiants have to forsake their oaths?  If somehow the ability to form bonds were destroyed, then the Recreance would happen whether the Knights willed it or not.

Spoiler

If the Radiants firmly believed they could stop the Voidbringers by giving up their oaths then I think that would be a decision they would support. Especially if there was some sort of "divine" sanction on the idea - either a Herald or a Shard giving their approval. Maybe Ishar is even more to blame than we suspect?

But, 100% agreement?  I doubt I could get 100% buy-in on getting ten friends to decide where to eat dinner on any given night.  There's no way on earth to get 100% buy-in from hundreds or thousands of people on condemning your dear friend and constant companion to a fate worse than death.  Also note that it means giving up your super-powers, so even if for cultural reasons the Knights somehow didn't care about their spren at all, pure selfishness would keep them from unanimity.  I doubt even Honor could get 100% agreement, and he's their bloody god!  (Furthermore, it seems from Dalinar's flashback of the Recreance that Honor didn't play much of a role there, though admittedly it's not super-clear either way.)

[CaptainRyan]

38 minutes ago, galendo said:

But then why would the Radiants have to forsake their oaths?  If somehow the ability to form bonds were destroyed, then the Recreance would happen whether the Knights willed it or not.

  Hide contents

If the Radiants firmly believed they could stop the Voidbringers by giving up their oaths then I think that would be a decision they would support. Especially if there was some sort of "divine" sanction on the idea - either a Herald or a Shard giving their approval. Maybe Ishar is even more to blame than we suspect?

But, 100% agreement?  I doubt I could get 100% buy-in on getting ten friends to decide where to eat dinner on any given night.  There's no way on earth to get 100% buy-in from hundreds or thousands of people on condemning your dear friend and constant companion to a fate worse than death.  Also note that it means giving up your super-powers, so even if for cultural reasons the Knights somehow didn't care about their spren at all, pure selfishness would keep them from unanimity.  I doubt even Honor could get 100% agreement, and he's their bloody god!  (Furthermore, it seems from Dalinar's flashback of the Recreance that Honor didn't play much of a role there, though admittedly it's not super-clear either way.)

This is Honor's world and the Radiant's are chosen by Honor (and Cultivation). I think it is entirely plausible and I think Brandon would write it that way. Also, as we know, One Order, despite agreeing to the Recreance, secretly did not participate. What could have possibly convinced 9 out of 10 Orders of the Knights Radiant to murder their spren and forsake their vows? A chance to save their world perhaps?

What do you think could cause those Knights to willing give up @galendo?

[Radiant_Jaeger]

On 5/18/2017 at 11:09 PM, CaptainRyan said:

This is Honor's world and the Radiant's are chosen by Honor (and Cultivation). I think it is entirely plausible and I think Brandon would write it that way. Also, as we know, One Order, despite agreeing to the Recreance, secretly did not participate. What could have possibly convinced 9 out of 10 Orders of the Knights Radiant to murder their spren and forsake their vows? A chance to save their world perhaps?

What do you think could cause those Knights to willing give up @galendo?

Wait Skybreakers? Do we know that any of this order's spren are alive? So it only follows that perhaps they still continue as a sect under Naln, but for all intensive purposes the order of Radiants that was known as the skybreakers is as dead as the windrunners until we find ahigh spren that bonds with one... Perhaps it was For the same reason as the Heralds...

Edited May 20, 2017 by Radiant_Jaeger

[CaptainRyan]

12 minutes ago, Radiant_Jaeger said:

Wait Skybreakers? Do we know that any of this order's spren are alive?! No. So it only follows that perhaps they still continue as a sect under Naln, but for all intensive purposes the order of Radiants that was known as the skybreakers is as dead as the windrunners until we find ahigh spren that bonds with one... Perhaps it was the same thing as the Heralds... they got sick of sacrificing themselves for others.

As far as I am aware, we do not know if the Skybreakers are the Order that secretly kept their Oaths though it some evidence does point that way. That is why I said "possibly".  

[Pagerunner]

3 hours ago, Radiant_Jaeger said:

Wait Skybreakers? Do we know that any of this order's spren are alive?! No. So it only follows that perhaps they still continue as a sect under Naln, but for all intensive purposes the order of Radiants that was known as the skybreakers is as dead as the windrunners until we find ahigh spren that bonds with one... Perhaps it was the same thing as the Heralds... they got sick of sacrificing themselves for others.

We know that Highspren are alive. Jasnah was seeking them out. We don't have absolute proof they are the ones who maintained their bonds, but there's a much stronger case for them than any of the other Orders.

Edgedancer spoilers.

Spoiler

If there were two Skybreaker groups, why did Nale have Surgebinders in the new Skybreakers during Edgedancer? He would have had to go against the purpose of the new Skybreakers to incorporate the resurgence of old Skybreakers.

 I find it too convoluted for Nale to be running a Surgebinding group called the Skybreakers that is not the one Order that didn't disband.

[Yata]

10 hours ago, CaptainRyan said:

Perhaps I was not clear. It is not that breaking Radiant bonds somehow also breaks Parshendi bonds but rather that the underlying principle of bonding itself was broken. Whatever magical properties allow sentient humanoids to bond with spren was disrupted somehow.

I see this explaination ad deeply faulty.

First of all, this "try" didn't work as at least some Listeners were leaved untouched.

Much more if the Radiants planned this...they Will Simply release their Bond rather than killing thousands of Spren with the Oathbreaking

[Farnsworth]

4 hours ago, Pagerunner said:

I find it too convoluted for Nale to be running a Surgebinding group called the Skybreakers that is not the one Order that didn't disband.

I agree with this. Also, it makes to much sense. Nale is supposed to be insane, and that's a pretty sensible action.

[CaptainRyan]

Hi @Yata,

I am happy to see you commenting! You are a knowledgeable Sharder and I am glad to have your help in either making this theory stronger or your help in revealing its weaknesses.

5 hours ago, Yata said:

First of all, this "try" didn't work as at least some Listeners were leaved untouched.

 

22 hours ago, CaptainRyan said:

We know that one Order of Radiants (possibly the Skybreakers) secretly kept their bonds which means that whatever a Bondsmith (see assumption 1) did to break the underlying principle (see assumption 2) was not completely successful - either due to the Order that secretly refused or perhaps because the Bondsmith just did something wrong. This mistake/accident/betrayal meant that some of the Parshendi remained Parshendi (Eshonai's people) and most turned into the Parshmen.

I addressed the fact that there are still Parshendi despite the efforts of the Knights Radiant in my initial post (see emphasis). The Knights Radiant may have been unsuccessful due to the one Order that kept their oaths, perhaps they simply failed at correctly disabling the underlying principle, or maybe, for a completely unknown reason, their gambit was simply failed.

 

5 hours ago, Yata said:

Much more if the Radiants planned this...they Will Simply release their Bond rather than killing thousands of Spren with the Oathbreaking

First thought: is it possible for a Knight Radiant, who has sworn the Oaths/Ideals, to simply release their bond? I cannot think of any in-book evidence of this off-hand and I do not recall any WoBs to this effect but I am also aware that I lack a perfect memory haha.

Second: The mechanics of how the Knights Radiant changed/damaged the underlying principle (see assumption 2) is unknown. It might have required the Knights to break their oaths. Maybe. I know it is a stretch but we do have evidence that the Knights broke their oaths and killed all of the bonded spren. Perhaps this was done with the consent of their spren to hide the knowledge of what had happened so that people could not undo it. The Knights simply vanished into history and the spren were locked into their "dead" state meaning no one could reveal how to "fix" the broken magic. 

Basically, while I realize some of these thoughts are a stretch we have evidence that nearly every single Knight broke their oath around the same time - what could possibly convince all of the Knights Radiant to do such a thing? I figure this theory is at least somewhat credible at answering this question.

[Yata]

@CaptainRyan First of all, thanks for your kind words.

Indeed a Radiant could release the Bond (to be more precise I think the Spren could release the Bond). There was case of spren passed from Parent to child and other things like that.

Another thing that bother me a bit It's the timeline. I think (but I could be wrong) the Parshmen's birth happened before the Recreance....but this could be really speculative. Maybe in my next re-read of SA I Will check this...

[Calderis]

@CaptainRyan in addition to what Yata said, there is a point in tWoK I believe where Syl says she could go away if that's what Kaladin wants. So I think the bond can be ended amicably. 

 

Edited May 19, 2017 by Calderis

[CaptainRyan]

13 minutes ago, Yata said:

There was case of spren passed from Parent to child and other things like that.

I am assuming this is a WoB? Also, passing a bond is a bit different than completely ending it, no? Elantris, as an example, shows Seon bonds can be passed from person to person but breaking the bond has serious consequences for the Seon. I would imagine that spren react similarly to unplanned breaks.

5 minutes ago, Calderis said:

is a point in tWoK I believe where Syl says she could go away if that's what Kaladin wants. So I think the bond can be ended amicably. 

I believe this is before he says any Oaths though.

[Fulminato]

word of radiance (in world book) in the chapter 38 spoke a discovery of a 'wicked thing of eminence' behind the recreance, don't think can fit this teory. and don't think all radiant (nine order of ten) broke the oath in the same moment, another ephigrap "That they [the windrunner] responded immediately and with great consternation is undeniable, as these were primary among those who would forswear and abandon their oaths" point in this direction (and the recreance's dalinar vision show only windrunner and stoneward)

[Calderis]

11 minutes ago, CaptainRyan said:

I believe this is before he says any Oaths though.

The first oath we see Kaladin speak is his second. I'm not sure why the first seems to function differently, but I personally believe living by the values of the first oath is what allows a proto-radiant to attract a spren in the first place. Without an initial bond, Kaladin couldn't have used Stormlight. Syl gaining sentience also shows a bond is in effect. If she could leave, it would still be severing a bond.

[galendo]

20 hours ago, CaptainRyan said:

What do you think could cause those Knights to willing give up @galendo?

Honestly?  I'm not sure there is a good explanation.  The best "explanation" I've seen is that the Knights' ever-growing use of Stormlight somehow risked letting Odium go free, so they quit cold turkey in the only way that wouldn't leave the spren free to replace the Knights later.  Another possibility is that the Knights intentionally tried to weaken Honor so that Odium could shatter him, go free, and move on to another world, hopefully leaving Roshar intact behind him.  I'm not sure I'm entirely convinced by either of these theories -- both seem the antithesis of "Journey before Destination", for one -- but they seem the most plausible at the moment.

14 hours ago, Pagerunner said:

 I find it too convoluted for Nale to be running a Surgebinding group called the Skybreakers that is not the one Order that didn't disband.

I don't find it that convoluted at all, though.  If you were a Herald and going to start up a new Order to replace the ones who quit...what else would you call them?  Nalan's Super Murdering Squad?  It's the same exact reason we call Kaladin a Windrunner and Dalinar a Bondsmith.  What would you call a bunch of people bonding highspren if not Skybreakers?

Personally, I think that the Order that didn't disband almost has to be one of the Orders with Illumination.  It's the only ability that would make faking the Recreance possible.  Your Blade goes dim, your skin goes grey, and then, when you're all by yourself again, you stop your Illuminating, resummon your Blade, and voila!  No one else is the wiser.

I tend to take Pattern's statements at face value, and therefore think that the betraying Order must be the Truthwatchers.  But it's not impossible that it's the Lightweavers, either.

[CJ Feboris]

11 hours ago, Fulminato said:

word of radiance (in world book) in the chapter 38 spoke a discovery of a 'wicked thing of eminence' behind the recreance, don't think can fit this teory. and don't think all radiant (nine order of ten) broke the oath in the same moment, another ephigrap "That they [the windrunner] responded immediately and with great consternation is undeniable, as these were primary among those who would forswear and abandon their oaths" point in this direction (and the recreance's dalinar vision show only windrunner and stoneward)

I've been reading this thread and all I could think of was this quote. The wicked thing of eminence seems to be a comingling of powers that should have been left alone. I don't remember the name of the knight in the epigraph that was supposed to have been doing naughty things, but I think it is another one from the in world words of radiance. 

3 hours ago, galendo said:

Honestly?  I'm not sure there is a good explanation.  The best "explanation" I've seen is that the Knights' ever-growing use of Stormlight somehow risked letting Odium go free, so they quit cold turkey in the only way that wouldn't leave the spren free to replace the Knights later.  Another possibility is that the Knights intentionally tried to weaken Honor so that Odium could shatter him, go free, and move on to another world, hopefully leaving Roshar intact behind him.  I'm not sure I'm entirely convinced by either of these theories -- both seem the antithesis of "Journey before Destination", for one -- but they seem the most plausible at the moment.

I don't find it that convoluted at all, though.  If you were a Herald and going to start up a new Order to replace the ones who quit...what else would you call them?  Nalan's Super Murdering Squad?  It's the same exact reason we call Kaladin a Windrunner and Dalinar a Bondsmith.  What would you call a bunch of people bonding highspren if not Skybreakers?

Personally, I think that the Order that didn't disband almost has to be one of the Orders with Illumination.  It's the only ability that would make faking the Recreance possible.  Your Blade goes dim, your skin goes grey, and then, when you're all by yourself again, you stop your Illuminating, resummon your Blade, and voila!  No one else is the wiser.

I tend to take Pattern's statements at face value, and therefore think that the betraying Order must be the Truthwatchers.  But it's not impossible that it's the Lightweavers, either.

I really like the theory of of lightweavers or truthwatchers being the group who performed the subterfuge, I think the skybreakers are a distraction/red herring to keep us off the right path. Brandon never makes something so important straightforward. 

[Yata]

38 minutes ago, CJ Feboris said:

I've been reading this thread and all I could think of was this quote. The wicked thing of eminence seems to be a comingling of powers that should have been left alone. I don't remember the name of the knight in the epigraph that was supposed to have been doing naughty things, but I think it is another one from the in world words of radiance. 

I really like the theory of of lightweavers or truthwatchers being the group who performed the subterfuge, I think the skybreakers are a distraction/red herring to keep us off the right path. Brandon never makes something so important straightforward. 

Unless Pattern is explicity a liar (something weird for the character) the Lightweavers killed their Spren in the Recreance.

But Pattern has real problem to lie, so I think we could take his words with a decent amount of trust

Edited May 20, 2017 by Yata

[Darkness]

On ‎19‎/‎05‎/‎2017 at 0:58 PM, CaptainRyan said:

Perhaps I was not clear. It is not that breaking Radiant bonds somehow also breaks Parshendi bonds but rather that the underlying principle of bonding itself was broken. Whatever magical properties allow sentient humanoids to bond with spren was disrupted somehow.

If the Radiants firmly believed they could stop the Voidbringers by giving up their oaths then I think that would be a decision they would support. Especially if there was some sort of "divine" sanction on the idea - either a Herald or a Shard giving their approval. Maybe Ishar is even more to blame than we suspect?

I guess my question on that would be, 'what changed?' What fixed the principle to allow bonds to form in the present day, and what happened to allow the Parshendi gods to return?

[CaptainRyan]

52 minutes ago, Darkness said:

I guess my question on that would be, 'what changed?' What fixed the principle to allow bonds to form in the present day, and what happened to allow the Parshendi gods to return?

Nothing had to change - the attempt by the Knights failed. We know one Order of Knights persisted after the Recreance and it is plausible that a group of Parshendi, Eshonai's people, have also been around for a long time. Whatever the Knights attempted at the Recreance to break the bonding process was unsuccessful.

[Fulminato]

11 hours ago, CJ Feboris said:

I've been reading this thread and all I could think of was this quote. The wicked thing of eminence seems to be a comingling of powers that should have been left alone. I don't remember the name of the knight in the epigraph that was supposed to have been doing naughty things, but I think it is another one from the in world words of radiance. 

“In short, if any presume Kazilah to be innocent, you must look at the facts and deny them in their entirety; to say that the Radiants were destitute of integrity for this execution of one their own, one who had obviously fraternized with the unwholesome elements, indicates the most slothful of reasoning; for the enemy's baleful influence demanded vigilance on all occasions, of war and of peace. ” Chapter 32, page 17

 

don't think the recreance have strong tied with kazilah, first are six chapter before and I suppose kazilah's affaire appened in time of peace,

Edited May 20, 2017 by Fulminato