Agewalker Posted May 13, 2017 Report Share Posted May 13, 2017 (edited) This is a brief theory I had regarding the next series. Kaladin still has 2 more ideals to reach, and is likely to speak more Words while visiting his home. Personally, I think that he will swear his next oath while saving or sparing Brightlord Roshone's life. We know that both times before when Kaladin swore to the ideals, it was at a point where he was suffering from intense despair, (out on the shattered plains, exhausted, empty of Stormlight and watching the parshendi kill his men, and suffering a flashback to the day his brother died,) or doubt (lost his connection with Syl, having to choose between fighting one of his closest friends or letting Elhokar be murdered.) What would define "doubt and despair" more for Kaladin then having to save the life of the man who singlehandedly turned his family into outcasts, forced Kaladin and Tien into military service, (thus resulting in Tien's death), and killed Moash's parents (thus resulting in the betrayal of one of Kaladin's own men)? Edited May 13, 2017 by Agewalker 13 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Bookwyrm he/him Posted May 13, 2017 Report Share Posted May 13, 2017 Nice. A very neat theory. Here, have an upvote. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lookupwards Posted May 13, 2017 Report Share Posted May 13, 2017 (edited) I think at least part of Kaladin's future ideals will be related to how he was unable to protect people and then blaming himself for it. While I certainly hope I'm wrong, I think something terrible probably has happened to either one of both of Kaladin's parents. I can sorta see Roshone continuing to torment Lirin and since he has already taken Lirin's sons, Roshone will do something to Hesina (Kaladin's mom). Obviously, Kaladin will blame himself for it all. Lirin has always been a light in Kaladin's eyes, someone Kaladin truly loves and admires. Kaladin even once mentions to (himself around) Shallan, what would have happened if he had to have been the one who brought light to his family instead of his parents or Tien. I think Kaladin is heading into a situation where he will need to be that light. What would Kaladin do if he comes back home only to find his mother dead, and his father Lirin probably now a self-loathing drunkard feeling he has lost everyone and everything he has cared about in his life. Lirin believes everything hopeless with his sons dead already, the town of Hearthstone scared away for good, and his wife, the last person he loves in the world taken from him. In terms of character development, it makes a lot of sense that Kaladin's reunion with his parents will be the foundation for whatever his next Ideal will be. I certainly hope I'm wrong though, I want Kaladin to be happy but that's not going to happen. Edited May 13, 2017 by lookupwards 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Betrail Posted May 14, 2017 Report Share Posted May 14, 2017 The other half of winderunners is leadership right? Nothing in my mind would challenge him more than getting into a situation where he has to obey Roshone, (can't have 2 leaders going in different ways even if 1 is better it is better to be unified in commands) plus this way no need to hurt kals family directly that way 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yata he/him Posted May 14, 2017 Report Share Posted May 14, 2017 The third Oath is already about the protection of people regardless of your attitudine to them....so I see It as unlikely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radiant_Jaeger he/him Posted May 14, 2017 Report Share Posted May 14, 2017 5 hours ago, lookupwards said: I think at least part of Kaladin's future ideals will be related to how he was unable to protect people and then blaming himself for it. While I certainly hope I'm wrong, I think something terrible probably has happened to either one of both of Kaladin's parents. I can sorta see Roshone continuing to torment Lirin and since he has already taken Lirin's sons, Roshone will do something to Hesina (Kaladin's mom). Obviously, Kaladin will blame himself for it all. Lirin has always been a light in Kaladin's eyes, someone Kaladin truly loves and admires. Kaladin even once mentions to (himself around) Shallan, what would have happened if he had to have been the one who brought light to his family instead of his parents or Tien. I think Kaladin is heading into a situation where he will need to be that light. What would Kaladin do if he comes back home only to find his mother dead, and his father Lirin probably now a self-loathing drunkard feeling he has lost everyone and everything he has cared about in his life. Lirin believes everything hopeless with his sons dead already, the town of Hearthstone scared away for good, and his wife, the last person he loves in the world taken from him. In terms of character development, it makes a lot of sense that Kaladin's reunion with his parents will be the foundation for whatever his next Ideal will be. I certainly hope I'm wrong though, I want Kaladin to be happy but that's not going to happen. "I will not stop trying to do what is right, no matter how many times I fail" is my guess for the 4th ideal. I believe it will be about failure and accepting it as well 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yata he/him Posted May 14, 2017 Report Share Posted May 14, 2017 1 minute ago, Radiant_Jaeger said: "I will not stop trying to do what is right, no matter how many times I fail" is my guess for the 4th ideal. I believe it will be about failure and accepting it as well Yeah this is possible 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJ Feboris Posted May 14, 2017 Report Share Posted May 14, 2017 2 hours ago, Radiant_Jaeger said: "I will not stop trying to do what is right, no matter how many times I fail" is my guess for the 4th ideal. I believe it will be about failure and accepting it as well The only problem here is that Syl seems to have a real problem with moral failures, so it would have to be failures to accomplish a task. I find it more likely that the oaths will be leadership related. I do like the idea of them happening early on in the book though. I sure hope we don't have to suffer through a Kaladin self -loathing again, that would be monotonous. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geralt Posted May 14, 2017 Report Share Posted May 14, 2017 If Kaladin does say a new ideal in Oathbringer (which may or may not happen), I'm expecting it to be regarding leadership as well. I mean, the guy is the first windrunner to appear in centuries and yet he's still a bodyguard in WoR, which practically makes him powerless in the grand scheme of things. For example, his next ideal could be something like: " I will show others how to protect" or something along those lines, but in order for him to be able to do that, he has to take leadership instead of simply following orders. And if I had to guess where he could find himself in a situation like that, I'd say it could happen in Kholin. Considering he may be the first of the main characters to arrive in the city, I could totally see a scene where he has to take control of the situation, even against the Queen/ardents. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vissy Posted May 14, 2017 Report Share Posted May 14, 2017 (edited) 10 hours ago, CJ Feboris said: The only problem here is that Syl seems to have a real problem with moral failures, so it would have to be failures to accomplish a task. I find it more likely that the oaths will be leadership related. I do like the idea of them happening early on in the book though. I sure hope we don't have to suffer through a Kaladin self -loathing again, that would be monotonous. I don't think that's the case. Forgiveness over vengeance is something that seems to be a central theme of being a Windrunner, and you can learn even from moral failures - as Kaladin did. I like this theory. It just makes me want to read Oathbringer that much quicker... storming book, it's like a drug addiction at this point. I need my Kaladin plot advancement fix ASAP. Edited May 14, 2017 by Rob Lucci 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJ Feboris Posted May 15, 2017 Report Share Posted May 15, 2017 I'm still not so sure about the forgiveness issue. Syl hasn't given much air time to forgiveness, she has mentioned, several times the fact that Kaladin better not lie. It seems that when Kaladin "failed" to uphold this lack or protection of others she "died." She doesn't seem to have a problem with him disliking people, he just has to protect them anyway (not the same as forgiveness). Just my thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radiant_Jaeger he/him Posted May 15, 2017 Report Share Posted May 15, 2017 6 minutes ago, CJ Feboris said: I'm still not so sure about the forgiveness issue. Syl hasn't given much air time to forgiveness, she has mentioned, several times the fact that Kaladin better not lie. It seems that when Kaladin "failed" to uphold this lack or protection of others she "died." She doesn't seem to have a problem with him disliking people, he just has to protect them anyway (not the same as forgiveness). Just my thoughts. I think she forgave him the second he said the words. She is probably still traumatized, but I think it will only make their bond stronger in the end, especially now that Kaladin KNOWS what put his bond in jeapordy instead of just suspects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis he/him Posted May 15, 2017 Report Share Posted May 15, 2017 Just now, Radiant_Jaeger said: I think she forgave him the second he said the words. She is probably still traumatized, but I think it will only make their bond stronger in the end, especially now that Kaladin KNOWS what put his bond in jeapordy instead of just suspects. I don't think he was talking about her forgiving him at all. He was speaking about her feelings about forgiveness. There's never been a problem with Kaladin disliking someone. Only with him wanting to cause harm because of his feelings. He doesn't have to forgive anyone, as long as he still fulfills his role as protector. Hence the wording of the second ideal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitch Posted May 15, 2017 Report Share Posted May 15, 2017 I think the next ideal will be on the other side of the spectrum from protecting even those you hate. It'll be protecting people from your friends. He'll become closer to Adolin and then later have to fight him to protect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxal she/her Posted May 15, 2017 Report Share Posted May 15, 2017 52 minutes ago, Kitch said: I think the next ideal will be on the other side of the spectrum from protecting even those you hate. It'll be protecting people from your friends. He'll become closer to Adolin and then later have to fight him to protect. This would fit within the third oath. While Kaladin said he ought to protect those he hates as long as it is right, the idea of the oath is much broader. He has to protect those it is right to protect, independently of how he feels about them. Hence, within your example, if someone close to Kaladin were to become an antagonist, Kaladin would have to opposed them, if need be, to protect others. Mind, he has already done it. Moash. He had to oppose a man he called a friend because even if Moash started up as someone Kaladin ought to protect, he later became someone he had to fight to protect Elhokar. Kaladin could have spoken his third oath in a completely different manner with the same result. Also, Moash was the one time friend he got close to, but who betrayed him and turned an antagonist: the story won't repeat itself with Adolin. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaconis Posted May 16, 2017 Report Share Posted May 16, 2017 I've been thinking Kaladin's next ideal will deal with leadership and protection. He has expressed several times the idea that he should make his men go home to keep them safe, and Syl has responded each time saying they made their choice. His ideal will be something about letting people make their own choice, even if it puts them in danger. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erandeni he/him Posted May 16, 2017 Report Share Posted May 16, 2017 12 hours ago, Jaconis said: I've been thinking Kaladin's next ideal will deal with leadership and protection. He has expressed several times the idea that he should make his men go home to keep them safe, and Syl has responded each time saying they made their choice. His ideal will be something about letting people make their own choice, even if it puts them in danger. I think it will deal with leadership and protection too, but I believe that it will be about other ways of protect people. Instead of just protect them from a physical threat, Kaladin will need to deal with all the chaos of the desolation, so he will need to protect people from themselves. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radiant_Jaeger he/him Posted May 16, 2017 Report Share Posted May 16, 2017 (edited) The third ideal is from what I've seen all about how to treat Enemies or those the Radiant hates. So far we only have two examples Quote I will protect even those I hate so long as it is right Edgedancer spoilers Spoiler I will listen to those who are ignored. (This is especially relevant given that Nale is the one she is saying this to, a man who's own personal ideal of justice has been warped over many years Given these I bet the Skybreaker's 3rd ideal will be about fairness, here's my guess "I will exact the law with equity, no matter the crime." Edited May 16, 2017 by Radiant_Jaeger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fulminato he/him Posted May 17, 2017 Report Share Posted May 17, 2017 (edited) On 14/5/2017 at 1:10 PM, geralt said: If Kaladin does say a new ideal in Oathbringer (which may or may not happen), I'm expecting it to be regarding leadership as well. I mean, the guy is the first windrunner to appear in centuries and yet he's still a bodyguard in WoR, which practically makes him powerless in the grand scheme of things. For example, his next ideal could be something like: " I will show others how to protect" or something along those lines, but in order for him to be able to do that, he has to take leadership instead of simply following orders. And if I had to guess where he could find himself in a situation like that, I'd say it could happen in Kholin. Considering he may be the first of the main characters to arrive in the city, I could totally see a scene where he has to take control of the situation, even against the Queen/ardents. Kaldin alredy have some problem to simply follow order. all two book are full of kaldin disobey higher order, but he do the 'right thing' instead Edited May 17, 2017 by Fulminato Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJ Feboris Posted May 20, 2017 Report Share Posted May 20, 2017 On 5/15/2017 at 8:07 PM, Jaconis said: I've been thinking Kaladin's next ideal will deal with leadership and protection. He has expressed several times the idea that he should make his men go home to keep them safe, and Syl has responded each time saying they made their choice. His ideal will be something about letting people make their own choice, even if it puts them in danger. This is my favorite take on the leadership bent so far. There seems to be a considerable amount of foreshadowing to support this theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radiant_Jaeger he/him Posted May 20, 2017 Report Share Posted May 20, 2017 24 minutes ago, CJ Feboris said: This is my favorite take on the leadership bent so far. There seems to be a considerable amount of foreshadowing to support this theory. Hmmm I see a lot about how he can't deal with failure and the books talking about how even he's always been broken up by failing. I think it will be along those lines Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormlightning she/her Posted May 22, 2017 Report Share Posted May 22, 2017 I think that Kaladin's difficulty with failure and blaming himself is more a personality trait (that may or may not be inherent to Windrunners), while the inclination to control Bridge Four's agency is much more of a moral issue that could be addressed by an Ideal. As far as I can recall, most of the ideals (with the exception of Shallan's Truths) tend to deal with how Radiants treat others. I'm not sure an Ideal would be focused on how to fix personal characteristics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vissy Posted May 22, 2017 Report Share Posted May 22, 2017 It's just his depression manifesting itself as a neverending circle of negativity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radiant_Jaeger he/him Posted May 23, 2017 Report Share Posted May 23, 2017 On 5/21/2017 at 11:06 PM, Rob Lucci said: It's just his depression manifesting itself as a neverending circle of negativity. I think it's all the people's deaths whom he believes that he is responsible for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis he/him Posted May 23, 2017 Report Share Posted May 23, 2017 3 minutes ago, Radiant_Jaeger said: I think it's all the people's deaths whom he believes that he is responsible for. Blaming himself for things he couldn't have possibly stopped is a part of his depression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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