Random and Potentially Baseless Theory on Tanavast

[jamesgrey]

I was reading through the excellent WoB Reddit compilation done by Pagerunner over in the Event and Signings forum yesterday. There was so much there I had missed, and I fixated on a ton of it. The thing I've though the most about is probably the least substantiated but I wanted to throw it out anyways. It all stems from this question:

Q: At any point did Tanavast relinquish the power of Honor to someone else

A: RAFO

Obviously, anything read into an RAFO is already on rocky ground, but bare with me. This really got me thinking about how Odium shatters Shards, what we know about those, and what we learned about the process and requirements for ascension in Mistborn.

1. In Mistborn we learn how important it is to have a connection to the power of a shard in order to become its holder, whether that is built up over time, or artificially created as Kelsier was able to do.

2. We also know from WoB that Odium killed the holders or Dominion and Devotion AND shattered their shards. The way it was written did not imply necessarily that the same action was used for both, and I actually think that taking direct action against a Shard (not its holder), might be impossible unless it is 'free.' So, if that were the case, Odium would have had to kill the holders first, wait for the Shard to 'drop,' and then shatter it. Considering what we know about connection allowing you to assume a Shard, part of the reason for that might be that even if Odium could "shatter" a Shard's power while it was being held, a Holder would be well connected to it to assemble pieces. So, What if Odium "shattering" a shard is actually much less complex than we may have thought it to be--it's literally just breaking the shards power up into an assortment of random smaller, ineffectual pieces--and the reason it is "permanent" is that no Holder exists who can recall the powers full shape and pull it together.

3. This is what I thought about when I read the question above. Given that Tanavast, much like preservation, seems to be playing a long game (the Oathpact, leaving the dreams for someone like Dalinar, etc.), I expect he would have been very concerned that what happened to Devotion and Dominion may happen to him. He may have realized that Odium's method relied on their being no one capable of reassembling a shattered shard, which perhaps is something only someone who has held it could do. So, here's the theory:

At some point post-shattering of Dominion and Dev, Tanavast set up a long-game plan for defeating Odium. He voluntarily gave his power to someone capable of ascending but also 'Honorable' enough to give it back. In doing so, he created a Sliver with a strong connection to the fully intact Honor Shard. Then, when Odium came to Roshar, Tanavast concocted this entire "campaign" with the Oathpact, etc. in order to convince Odium that this was the real battle. And then... he let Odium win by sacrificing something/luring him into the gambit that has trapped him in the Roshar system. Meanwhile, some secret order, maybe colluding with Cultivation, or perhaps even a secret instruction to one of the Heralds (Taln seems the obvious choice given his prominence as a viewpoint character), is guarding the secret Sliver of Honor. Then once Odium has committed again, thinking he is only fighting fragments of Honor's power and Cultivation, the Sliver can ascend and truly challenge him while he is bound to Roshar. This also works with a potential reading of why Odium did not Shatter Ambition in the Threndoite system--but elsewhere. If the fight was not going well, one side likely fled and was chased elsewhere where the battle resumed. What if part of the value to Odium of not heavily investing in planets was his ability to remain mobile. Tanavast has now limited that, and if a secret Sliver exist, potentially forced Odium into an eventual fight against Two Full Shards aware of his tricks. This has enough but not inordinate parallels to Mistborn, and also speaks to the fact that since all of the original 16 knew each other, some of them should have been able to figure out how Rayse thinks and build a counter strategy.

I realize this is a huge stretch and probably crazy but I couldn't stop thinking about it after I read that question so to the forums it goes.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

Points in your Favor:

• You don't contradict the fact that Tanavast actually died to Odium's attack
• Tanavast is still around(somewhat), so he could still have a plan/long con
• Brandon has called Splintering a "smaller scale Shattering," so pieces with different Intents isn't too far-fetched
• Both Tanavast and the Nightform Parshendi have spoken of a "challenged champion"

Potential Problems/Contradictions:

• Becoming a Sliver doesn't automatically make you immortal
• Your connections can change, especially over a vast amount of years
• Taln couldn't really guard the chosen one while enduring millennia in Braize, and the other 9 jumped ship.
• Brandon has said that we've seen all the non-Worldhopper secret Societies on Roshar already
• We've speculated that the Heralds gave up b/c they didn't have an endgame, so they wouldn't know about this plan (if we're right)

---

My Thoughts and Opinions:

• Honor knows at least one method to circumvent a lack of immortality(The Heralds)
• Yet another Secret Society? (And one almost giving me Order of Mata Nui vibes, no less...)
  • So.. Sons of Honor perhaps? They are the ones who want Odium to "be committed again," as it were.
• Are you implying that Odium is the one who left Threnody for the kill of Ambition?
• The Heralds could've been kept in the dark so they can't reveal the plan if tortured.

All in all, it's a great theory. Biggest issue is potential changing connections over the millennia

[jamesgrey]

Thanks, appreciate the thoughtful response. I see the problems with regard to the Heralds, so I'm willing to accept if there is a long game here they are either not in the loop or were intentionally driven (temporarily?) made as a result of the shattering of the Pact  in order to prevent them from spilling the plan. If the latter is true.. man what a sacrifice.

 

On Odium leaving Threnody, I think it's not clear if Ambition or Odium decided to move their battle out of Threnodite system, or if it was a stalemate and it picked up elsewhere. My personal belief, is that Ambition was winning and so Odium left to fight again another day. Ambition (being literally influecned by his intent), may have sought to pursue Odium which would have left him weaker if he had investiture tied up in the Threnodite system and Odium was still whole. If that was the case, if we give more credit to Odium, maybe he feigned more weakness than he had to provoke exactly such an ambitious response. Not sure on any of this, but it has me thinking.

[Thanatos]

Maybe he sacrificed himself so that Cultivation and the new Honor knows how to splinter (Odium). 

[+Extesian he/him]

I really like this analysis @jamesgrey. I've wondered before as well if Honor basically voluntarily meet his demise at the timing of his choosing because of a larger plan, to prevent Odium splintering him completely and to trap Odium (though I think Odium was trapped long, long before the splintering.

Here's a WoB that, with ideas like yours, could explain Brandon laughing (evilly, I believe)

Quote

QUESTION

Did Ambition fight back?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes.

QUESTION

And...Was Cultivation close enough to when Odium got [Splintered] Honor, to know how to fight back? Brandon: Heheheheh. I would say yes.

QUESTION

And Cultivation, is she--

BRANDON SANDERSON

She is still there. Alive and kicking.

QUESTION

And she can probably know how to not turn her back to the--

BRANDON SANDERSON

Well, maybe. She has learned from the experiences of others

For this reason I've thought maybe he effectively passed some of the power to Cultivation's vessel, though there may be realmatic and Intent problems with that. So I like your way of looking at it, even if we'll need a lot more to have any kind of confidence. 

Tbh I have doubts it would be an immortal individual holding the power though. I think it's possible it's a spren though, like Cusicesh. I have serious doubts about that, but I feel it's more likely that if your theory is correct, the power is stored in a place or a thing, rather than a person. 

Either way, good thinking and welcome to the Shard!

[The One Who Connects he/him]

On 5/11/2017 at 10:24 PM, Extesian said:

Tbh I have doubts it would be an immortal individual holding the power though. I think it's possible it's a Spren though, like Cusicesh. I have serious doubts about that, but I feel it's more likely that if your theory is correct, the power is stored in a place or a thing, rather than a person. 

I know it's been a while, but links brought me back here, and I've just noticed a possible misinterpretation on your part. In James' theory, nobody is "holding" Honor's power, it's still splintered all over Roshar.

All in all, this thread is largely an attempt to explain how/why reforming a splintered Shard could be done, and Tanavast is used as an example. James thinks that the fragments have partial intents(like the Shards themselves did), and that someone would have to have connection to the whole in order to reform it.

The idea is that Honor stepped down to let some person ascend so that they are connected to Honor in it's entirety. That person stepped back down so that Tanavast could resume his duties as Honor. Tanavast then made this "secret Sliver" immortal, and hid him away somewhere. Once Odium is lured back into the confrontation(as is happening in the books), the mystery person would reveal themselves and reform Honor, heavily tipping the scales in H&C's favor.

[jamesgrey]

Thank you for summarizing my theory better than I did!