Cultivations role in the Oathpact.

[KnightofLight]

So I apologize if this was made clear already by previous posts but the more discussions I read, I end up with more questions as well as answers. So my question involves a WoB that says tuned oathpact was formed by honor and the heralds. I'm paraphrasing here. So if that's true then the honorblades that gave the heralds ten different orders and surges all came from Honor. I'm confused because don't edgedancers have cultivation Spren? How did Cultivation get involved? 

[Argent]

You are assuming a lot of things about the Oathpact  The truth is, we have no idea what it entailed (and still does, as it is not broken), only that it was between Honor and his Heralds. The Honorblades could've come before or after said deal was made.

[The One Who Connects]

4 minutes ago, KnightofLight said:

So if that's true then the Honorblades that gave the heralds ten different orders and surges all came from Honor.

Short answer to this is that Honorblades are a "hack," and not part of the natural system. Meaning that Honorblades gave them access to the whole spectrum because Honor cheated, so to speak.

6 minutes ago, KnightofLight said:

How did Cultivation get involved? 

We don't know.

[KnightofLight]

Ok I'm actually pretty relieved that these are unanswered questions. I was trying to piece it together without all the pieces so to speak

[Pagerunner]

I see a similarity in Mistborn, if you have read it.

Spoiler

Atium, Ruin's metal, can be used in Allomancy, Preservation's magic system. The Mists, the pure essence of Preservation, can power any of the abilities.

Therefore, my understanding is:

Cultivationspren can be a grant Surgebinding, Honor's magic system. The Honorblades, pieces of Honor, can grant any of the abilities.

But I'll admit that there are other views out there, that we don't know for sure yet how the Shards, the magics, and the spren interact to create what we've seen.

 

[Radiant_Jaeger]

1 hour ago, KnightofLight said:

So I apologize if this was made clear already by previous posts but the more discussions I read, I end up with more questions as well as answers. So my question involves a WoB that says tuned oathpact was formed by honor and the heralds. I'm paraphrasing here. So if that's true then the honorblades that gave the heralds ten different orders and surges all came from Honor. I'm confused because don't edgedancers have cultivation Spren? How did Cultivation get involved? 

Honestly I think it was independent action by the cultivation spren who saw surges that aligned with their own being, and wished to help men too.

[+Extesian]

1 hour ago, Pagerunner said:

I see a similarity in Mistborn, if you have read it.

  Hide contents

Atium, Ruin's metal, can be used in Allomancy, Preservation's magic system. The Mists, the pure essence of Preservation, can power any of the abilities.

Therefore, my understanding is:

Cultivationspren can be a grant Surgebinding, Honor's magic system. The Honorblades, pieces of Honor, can grant any of the abilities.

But I'll admit that there are other views out there, that we don't know for sure yet how the Shards, the magics, and the spren interact to create what we've seen.

 

I've tried to reconcile this myself, if (Nahel bond) surgebinding is of Honor and Cultivation, and Honorblades are purely of Honor (we know Honor basically let them access his investiture directly), then what is Cultivation's magic system (to continue the Ruin/Preservation comparison)? It could be the Old Magic but Khriss at least thinks that is a different (and older) thing altogether. My problem is that the number of spren are based on Honor being splintered (they act as a 'release valve' for his splintered power), so why would spren that exist because of Honor's scattered investiture access Cultivation's power? And exactly where do fabrials fit into this (Brandon has basically said, if my memory is right, that there are three distinct magic systems - Surgebinding, Voidbinding and Fabrials)? Bonds (in the form of symbiosis) are already natural to Roshar so it's not as easy as just saying that where there is bond-based magic, Honor would be involved.

My best guess is that when Honor died, Cultivation used her power to 'cultivate' the spren that formed from Honor's scattered investiture, made them 'grow' to be able to form self-awareness not just in the random way that unheld investiture does, but in a deliberate way to differentiate some of them into the sapient spren that now form Nahel bonds. But as others have said, I think it remains a pretty big mystery.

[thegatorgirl00]

2 hours ago, Extesian said:

I've tried to reconcile this myself, if (Nahel bond) surgebinding is of Honor and Cultivation, and Honorblades are purely of Honor (we know Honor basically let them access his investiture directly), then what is Cultivation's magic system (to continue the Ruin/Preservation comparison)? It could be the Old Magic but Khriss at least thinks that is a different (and older) thing altogether. My problem is that the number of spren are based on Honor being splintered (they act as a 'release valve' for his splintered power), so why would spren that exist because of Honor's scattered investiture access Cultivation's power? And exactly where do fabrials fit into this (Brandon has basically said, if my memory is right, that there are three distinct magic systems - Surgebinding, Voidbinding and Fabrials)? Bonds (in the form of symbiosis) are already natural to Roshar so it's not as easy as just saying that where there is bond-based magic, Honor would be involved.

My best guess is that when Honor died, Cultivation used her power to 'cultivate' the spren that formed from Honor's scattered investiture, made them 'grow' to be able to form self-awareness not just in the random way that unheld investiture does, but in a deliberate way to differentiate some of them into the sapient spren that now form Nahel bonds. But as others have said, I think it remains a pretty big mystery.

The way I've always interpreted it is that access to the surges is not a magic system in itself but rather the effect of one. Both the Honorblades and Nahel bond alter the spirit web to allow access to the surges. The surges themselves are independent of the shards, but how they are accessed isn't. Remember, Fabrials can access the surges as well. 

I'll make an analogy to the Metallic Arts to try and make my point clearer. Allomancy, Feruchemy, and Hemalurgy can all be used to increase a person's senses. The mechanics are very different, but to someone who knows little about the Arts the effects would look almost identical. I think this is what's happening here. The real evidence for this theory would be if Vidbinding could affect surges as well. 

[Yata]

3 hours ago, thegatorgirl00 said:

The way I've always interpreted it is that access to the surges is not a magic system in itself but rather the effect of one. Both the Honorblades and Nahel bond alter the spirit web to allow access to the surges. The surges themselves are independent of the shards, but how they are accessed isn't. Remember, Fabrials can access the surges as well.

Surgebinding is a Magic System that allow to access to the surges under H&C's filter (There is a WoB about). As it is clear the Surgebinging arose from both Honor & Cultivation.

But there are different way to gain Surgebinding's abilities. This "way" could be indeed made by Honor, Cultivation or both. The Nahel Bond is a "way" using both H&C as bridge as the Spren are a mix of them. Honorblades seem to be a "way" made by Honor alone and (very probably) Fabrial are a way mainly of Cultivation.