A brief theory on the Shadesmar Sun

[Darkness he/him]

So up until now, I've been working under the assumption that the light in Shadesmar is coming from the origin, which lies somewhere east of the continent. I have no real reasons to discount this, but I do have some good reasoning to supporting my next idea:

So we know that Shadesmar is basically a flattened representation of Roshar in the Cognitive Realm, and it is affected- to a large extent - by people's perspectives. We have also seen that Stormlight appears as light in the Cognitive Realm. Also, knowing that Highstorms do have some kind of representation in Shadesmar, and that they always come from East to West, I think that the 'Sun' in Shadesmar is actually the Cognitive reflection of a Highstorm, and that it is more or less always 'in the distance to the east' until a highstorm actually strikes, at which point it manifests in the direct vicinity of the observer. Basically, I believe that Highstorms dont really 'travel' through Shadesmar in the same way as in the Physical Realm, but that they exist in two distinct forms: either 'in the distance' as the Sun (the massive source of investiture should manifest as a huge light) or in the specific locale of a person who is Physically in a highstorm. To elaborate further, if a surgebinder entered Shadesmar immediately after a highstorm, he/she would see only the Sun to the East, and no Cognitive representation of the highstorm to the west.

I'm still thinking about how Kaladin's vision relates to this (he flew over the continent, presumably attached to the Cognitive Highstorm?) but I think it should still work.

That would also explain why shadows go the opposite way for people who are in Shadesmar or connected to the Cognitive strong enough: It's a natural result of their connection to Stormlight and the Cognitive idea of Highstorms coming from the east.

[Radiant_Jaeger he/him]

Why would their shadows go the opposite way? The stormlight is light in both realms so shouldn't the shadow be the same?

[galendo]

I don't get why this would have their shadows go the opposite way.  If the sun is always in the Origin (off in the East), and if their shadows are somehow always seeing the Shadesmar sun, then wouldn't their shadows always point west?  Now, maybe they always do point west -- I couldn't say for sure -- but if I'm remembering correctly the "weird" shadows are always described as going towards the light regardless of time of day, i.e., east in the morning, west in the afternoon.

[+Extesian he/him]

I like this theory. Not because I think it's right but because it's interesting and made me consider some questions I'd never considered considering before

I think the above questions about why the point towards the light irrespective of time or Highstorm location are valid. But also because of the limited WoBs I could find (and I'm surprised to not find more, though maybe someone else knows of more).

Quote

RURO272

Is there a reason why shadows go toward the light in Shadesmar, or is it just worldbuilding flavor?

BRANDON SANDERSON

There is a reason, but its not super important. It's like a cultural thing, things have reasons but they aren't always super relevant to the story. It's like safehands--do you know how safehands came to be?

.......

(Note this is 'very much paraphrased)

Quote

BLIGHTSONG

Last year I asked you if shadows turn the wrong way in the cognitive realm for a reason, you said to basically think of it like important flavor text. Is this happening because people are being drawn towards the Beyond?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Um, yea that part of it. Definitely.

The first one doesn't seem to help much. The second one makes it sound like it's to do with the Beyond. In my mind I picture that as the cognitive realm having backwards shadows because investiture (which comes up as light and includes souls) is kind of flowing towards the Beyond, leaving a shadow in that direction, and connection to the Cognitive Realm let's that investiture shadow creep into the Physical Realm. But that's speculation on my part. Maybe @Blightsong can add something to that in terms of the question or answer

[Yata he/him]

Many people (me included) think that the Cognitive's Sun is a rapresentation of the Spiritual Realm (while others think is the Beyond). You May notice that sun is there also in other Shardworlds, not Roshar only

[Darkness he/him]

I'll try to explain that part of my thought a little more. Think of it like in Secret Histories

 

how Kelsier's cognitive shadow has a strong connection to Scadrial, so he's drawn there; tethered so much he cant even get away. Similarly, but in a much more limiting way, he's tethered to the well of ascension at first because he ties his Cognitive aspect to all that investiture to resist the beyond.

I figure that people's Cognitive aspects are drawn toward the massive source of investiture (the Cognitive Sun) in a similar way, but on Roshar that means their literal 'Cognitive shadow' extends toward the Sun. It's a natural result of the connection they have to it.

Side note: Now that I think more about it, I'm pretty sure that Cognitive Shadows retain their Spirit webs... Otherwise

 

Kelsier would probably have a really tough time spiking himself back into a body

and I believe that's where Connections are stored, but it doesn't really matter if people's Cognitive or Spiritual aspects are the part that is connected and pulled toward the light, since stormlight comes initially from the Spiritual Realm, and then through the Stormfather, who resides in the Highstorms anyway... It would basically be the same result.

Do you get what I'm trying to say?

Edit: Yata put in a very good point. Maybe I can amend my idea a little. Instead of saying 'the Sun is the Highstorm', I'll say the Sun is the locale of a massive point of connection for people. In other words, it is what they are commonly tethered to; it's the defining identity feature of the planet. This would be interpreted on Roshar as primarily the same as the Highstorm, because that is the perpendicularity (my thought, has been RAFO'd) where all stormlight transfers from Spiritual, through Cognitive, to Physical, and is the principal feature of the planet. You could even say that the Highstorms are the focus of the planet's Identity. On Scadrial

 

It isn't Ruin, it isn't Preservation (although Kelsier is able to make Preservation's well into something of a substitute for awhile). I dont know what it is, but I suspect it's more something like the core of the planet itself, simply because Kelsier's connection to Scadrial seems to be pulling him constantly toward the middle of the cognitive there

I realize my justification is rushed, and seems fragile, but I just don't have the details sorted out enough. I still like the main idea that people's shadows in the Cognitive are drawn toward the Cognitive Sun because of some kind of connection. I'm really not sold that it's the Spiritual Realm (because why we would it manifest in one place... The SR is famous for not being in any one place). I also dont think it's the Beyond, because in Secret Histories

 

I dont see the same description of the point people are drawn to after death as the Sun thing

. Lastly, I dont think it's any single perpendicularity, because we've seen perpendicularities (horneater peaks, Scadrial's) and shards (Scadrial again, plus there were 3 separate shards on Roshar that likely weren't all hanging around together, and that aren't in the same place as the Cognitive Sun), although the probability that the Highstorm is also a perpendicularity certainly cant hurt.

 

PS. Just throwing this out there, but just as Brandon says, 'the soul knows how old it is', I figure people are drawn toward the beyond because of the innate, overwhelming Connection that every mortal person has with death. The soul, even after separating from the body, knows innately that it should be dead, so it is naturally drawn to become even more fully gone and dead. People who develop other powerful Connections (like magic users) can temporarily use those unnaturally widened connections to resist the 'next death', but that's about it.

Edited May 1, 2017 by Darkness
I saw Yata's response after I had replied to the others

[Blightsong he/him]

10 hours ago, Extesian said:

I like this theory. Not because I think it's right but because it's interesting and made me consider some questions I'd never considered considering before

I think the above questions about why the point towards the light irrespective of time or Highstorm location are valid. But also because of the limited WoBs I could find (and I'm surprised to not find more, though maybe someone else knows of more).

The first one doesn't seem to help much. The second one makes it sound like it's to do with the Beyond. In my mind I picture that as the cognitive realm having backwards shadows because investiture (which comes up as light and includes souls) is kind of flowing towards the Beyond, leaving a shadow in that direction, and connection to the Cognitive Realm let's that investiture shadow creep into the Physical Realm. But that's speculation on my part. Maybe @Blightsong can add something to that in terms of the question or answer

Off topic, but that first question is the first WoB i ever got. I wish i had been more active on the shard and had recorded and transcribed those myself.

 

I like all the theories in this thread. My idea has always been that that sun is a representation of what the people of Roshar think happens to you when you die. A lot of their religion revolves around going to actual other planets either as part of a mass exodus (iri) or to go to damnation (Braize) after death.

[Kinnsayyy]

Could the "sun" be the body of the bulk of the shards cognitive shadow? For example on Roshar it could be cultivations cognitive shadow, or where a large amount of her mind thinks it is located, and on Scadrial it could be where ruin thinks it is at? Cause the way people think is important there, so maybe if they imagine themselves to be mainly in one spot, they'd have a large amount of their energy there. Since shards definitely have a lot of investiture. 

 

Or maybe they're just seeing hoid in the distance and he just glows because he's hoid

[Yata he/him]

Well darkness the "sun" is a constant among the CR, It could be really a manifestation of something equality spread everywhere.

Much more when Ruin's Power spread in an area, It's described as falling from the High and as something that partially cover the sun. We know that mostly of the Shards'Power is in the Spiritual...so another likely metaphor for the sun as spiritual.

But like your my points are really speculative.

[+Extesian he/him]

So I just read one of the Oathbringer Interlude reading transcripts, about a soulcaster, and I think it solves @Darkness and @Yata's and my questions. I'll spoiler the rest though it barely needs it, the quote I'll use doesn't really give away and plot points. 

Spoiler

At one point this description is given

"That wasn’t an ocean beneath her but deep black glass. And two suns in the sky--one that drew her soul toward it. Her shadow was stretched out the wrong direction."

So, that to me is completely fascinating. Firstly, maybe I missed it but there are two suns in Shadesmar??? Secondly it sounds pretty clear from that that the second sun is the one shadows point to and that her soul, ie her spiritweb, is being pulled towards it. I think that this settles the question of whether or represents the Spiritual Realm or the Beyond. A soul is already in the Spiritual Realm, which has no sense of distance, to be drawn towards something it must be the Beyond. 

Or have I jumped too far to conclusions?

 

[Yata he/him]

Good to know, I didn't read that and I don't want to open the spoiler, but I am glad we could progress into Theorycrafting

[Ciridae]

@Extesian If I remember correctly 

Spoiler

The Soulcaster occasionally sees the PR and the CR overlapping, like when she sees anticipationspren and the 'beasts' that acompany them. The two are one and the same, but she sees two different versions of them because she glimpses into the CR at times. The way I interpreted the passage you quoted is that she sees the shadesmar sun in addition to the regular sun. 

Other than that I agree with your interpretation that the sun represents the Beyond. I don't remember, is the sun mentioned in Secret History? If it does represent the Beyond it should be visible anywhere in the CR, regardless of which part of the cosmere you're in, right? 

Also, is there a discussion about that chapter anywhere? There's a lot of really interesting stuff happening.

 

[Calderis he/him]

I originally thought that the "Sun" was the Cognitive view of the spiritual realm. After reading SH it shifted in line with what @Extesian posted. 

The sun appears to be a constant in the CR, like the water/land inversion.

Concerning the spoiler that Extesian posted

Spoiler

I'm fairly sure that there is only one sun in Shadesmar, but that the Soulcaster savant saw the Cognitive Realm overlaying the physical like a double exposed photograph. 

 

[+Extesian he/him]

1 hour ago, Ciridae said:

@Extesian If I remember correctly 

  Hide contents

The Soulcaster occasionally sees the PR and the CR overlapping, like when she sees anticipationspren and the 'beasts' that acompany them. The two are one and the same, but she sees two different versions of them because she glimpses into the CR at times. The way I interpreted the passage you quoted is that she sees the shadesmar sun in addition to the regular sun. 

Other than that I agree with your interpretation that the sun represents the Beyond. I don't remember, is the sun mentioned in Secret History? If it does represent the Beyond it should be visible anywhere in the CR, regardless of which part of the cosmere you're in, right? 

Also, is there a discussion about that chapter anywhere? There's a lot of really interesting stuff happening.

 

Spoilers continued for Oathbringer Interlude, and for Secret History

Spoiler

I feel like a chull not realizing it was just the two overlaid Realms But of course! In SH the sun is the same as other parts of the Cognitive Realm, though it's noted that Ruin starts to conver it when he escapes, which is interesting. 

But yeah I'm glad to read the new perspective of it, with the soul being pulled like that and linking it to the reversed shadow.