Kandra and Shardblades

[Islipperyharp he/him]

This question has probably been asked and answered before but I couldn't find an WoB on it (Probably because I get distracted)... But I would still like to know what would happen if a Kandra got cut by a shardblade? Would that flesh around the cut just die? Would it have the same effect it has on a human, or would it have little to no effect?

[The One Who Connects he/him]

I dropped that question into the Ultimate List of Questions topic a while back, and Yata mentioned there being some WoB about it not being as clearcut as how they affect humans, but I don't think Kandra were immune to it.

It's probably a Reddit WoB so I'll search for it tomorrow.

[A Secret Corner he/him]

12 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

I dropped that question into the Ultimate List of Questions topic a while back, and Yata mentioned there being some WoB about it not being as clearcut as how they affect humans, but I don't think Kandra were immune to it.

It's probably a Reddit WoB so I'll search for it tomorrow.

Hmm... Well if the effect is lessened, even if some flesh got cut off, the kandra could theoretically just eat it and then reform it. If they couldn't... well then that would have some interesting consequences...

[Themasterhunter]

As I understand Shardblades, It severs not the physical, but it does sever spiritual and cognitive aspects of beings. 

 

With a normal blade, nothing too interesting happens. they could, as stated above, just eat it and reuse the mass. 

With a shardblade, It would sever the spiritual connection, and/or the cognitive connection.

With a human, their eyes burn out, and they die, with little or no physical damage. 

I believe that with a kandra, it would do one of two things. 

1. It would render them as perpetual mistwraiths, no blessings or any form of investiture could bring them back to a thinking, kandra state.

2. Their eyes would burn, (with or without their blessings), and they would die. 

 

There's really no reason to believe that it would actually cut them. 

Their flesh, for example, is part of them, and would manifest in their spiritweb,(especially that any part of them is still them) and if they were cut, it would take their whole being. 

Where did this question originate and why? This doesnt make much sense to me. 

UNLESS. it does nothing to actual kandra flesh. then you would have to sever the blessings. I dunno. somebody tell me if im wrong.

Edited April 14, 2017 by Themasterhunter
To expound

[Yata he/him]

On 10/4/2017 at 7:40 PM, Themasterhunter said:

As I understand Shardblades, It severs not the physical, but it does sever spiritual and cognitive aspects of beings. 

A shardblade cuts the Spiritual not the Cognitive

[Themasterhunter]

okay... still though. the kandra would be dead anyway

[Yata he/him]

1 hour ago, Themasterhunter said:

okay... still though. the kandra would be dead anyway

Yeah...except that maybe their Soul doesn't actually fit their body (something relatd to their shapeshifting abilities) ot it's more loose connected to a specific piece of flesh, so they could reconfigure it.
Honestly I don't know, I remember only that Shardblade would be really less dangerous to a Kandra, but I don't know the reason

[Themasterhunter]

can they keep their soul in a specific part of their body? what even. what if you used a shardblade on a mistwraith

[Yata he/him]

1 hour ago, Themasterhunter said:

can they keep their soul in a specific part of their body? what even. what if you used a shardblade on a mistwraith

We don't know about the first and I think cutting a Kandra and a Mistwraith is mostly the same thing

[Themasterhunter]

but do the blessings affect their soul? do they have souls as mistwraiths, or is it a product of the blessings?

[Yata he/him]

2 hours ago, Themasterhunter said:

but do the blessings affect their soul? do they have souls as mistwraiths, or is it a product of the blessings?

They have a soul for sure as everything in the Cosmere has a soul.

Much more as living beings their souls are more Invested than objects' ones

[+Extesian he/him]

This may not help but it relates

Quote

HEROWANNABE

Okay, a couple questions about Kandra. So when Kandra digest bones, obviously they need that Physically, but is there a Cognitive or a Spiritual purpose to the bones, too?

BRANDON SANDERSON

No, the bones are just there for the muscles to pull against.

That kind of implies to me that a Shardblade severing the spiritual connection to a Kandra's limb would not affect the Kandra. I'm guessing the Shardblade would have to cut the blessings, or something (some specific part) of the Kandra to sever its spiritual connection to its soul.

Against this is that a kandra can get abilities via hemalurgy which begs the question of where you would actually spike them. If their body is Connected enough to receive a spike maybe it says the connection does depend on their created body.

It could be slightly analogous to Aimians...

Quote

Q: Could you spike a Hordling?
A: Yes. Spike means getting something out, Spike means get(ting?) something in? I think that both is viable. I think you can, yeah.
Q: If you would spike something in, would the whole Aimian get maybe an Allomantic ability?
A: Mostly, this would probably change the Hordling. And they may lose contact to it. It could fiddle with the connection to the point that they can no longer link. That's gonna be my answer right now, that spiking a Hordling would separate it from the group mind.

If you can affect a hordeling without affecting the Aimian maybe a kandra's limb is similar.

On balance I think a Shardblade to a kandra's limb wouldn't kill it. But there's arguments both ways.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

Ok, so I was lazy and never searched for it. Terribly sorry, but I've got it now: Here.

Quote

Q. If a kandra's limb was cut by a Shardblade, would it be able to heal/regrow?
 
A. Yes.

[+Lewis Nethur He/Him]

The shardblade would physically cut the kandras bones though, so they aren't totally immune. Further, their brains can be damaged, so getting cut in the wrong place could probably wipe out large sections of their memories and personality...

[The One Who Connects he/him]

2 minutes ago, hwiles said:

The Shardblade would physically cut the Kandra's bones though, so they aren't totally immune.

See, this was something I was forced to reconsider last time this was discussed. Would it actually cut the bones, or would it phase through like it does when cutting human limbs? Where does that line get drawn? What makes a human different from a Kandra using a human body, and do those distinctions actually matter to Shardblades?

I'll give you the brain injury point, even though I still don't get how the nerve damage works, since they eyes actually burn from a spine cut.

[+Lewis Nethur He/Him]

Hmm, I see your point, but I think the difference is simply that the bones aren't alive.

The kandra is basically just wrapped around the bones (or metal/wood/crystal...). An analogous situation would be, if a soldier's hand that is gripping a sword hilt is cut by a shardblade, is the hilt cut? My guess would be yes, as it doesn't have enough spiritual presence to resist being physically cut by a shardblade.

I suppose I could see it going either way, but that's where my heads at on the issue.

[Calderis he/him]

9 minutes ago, hwiles said:

Hmm, I see your point, but I think the difference is simply that the bones aren't alive.

The kandra is basically just wrapped around the bones (or metal/wood/crystal...). An analogous situation would be, if a soldier's hand that is gripping a sword hilt is cut by a shardblade, is the hilt cut? My guess would be yes, as it doesn't have enough spiritual presence to resist being physically cut by a shardblade.

I suppose I could see it going either way, but that's where my heads at on the issue.

I see two options, and can't decide which is more likely. 

Option 1: The bones, whether natural, carved, forged, grown, etc. Are considered dead and therefore are cut, causing inconvenience to the Kandra, 

Option 2: when the blade fuzzed to cut the spiritual, it will skip over anything incorporated into the body.

Option 1 initially seems more likely to me, because the Kandra view their bones in much the same way we view clothing. Option 2 also seems plausible though, as being contained within a living body, and may be protected in the same way that metal is inside the body. 

I think I still lean towards option 1, because of the way Shardblades cut Carapace. Carapace is a part of the body, and I assume viewed as such by creatures that have it, but Shardblades cut through it without needing to kill the creature first. They are still arguably outside the body though so... 

[The One Who Connects he/him]

Just now, Calderis said:

I think I still lean towards option 1, because of the way Shardblades cut Carapace. Carapace is a part of the body, and I assume viewed as such by creatures that have it, but Shardblades cut through it without needing to kill the creature first. They are still arguably outside the body though so... 

I think it'd be useful to ask Brandon if a Shardblade would cut a metal ring(not a Metalmind, just a ring) in an Allomancer's stomach if they got sliced by a Shardblade.

I say a ring just because it'd be clear as day whether or not it was cut, whereas metal flakes would be speculative. I know it's not the same as Kandra bones in terms of function, but it'd show whether it can solidify to cut things while fuzzed out inside a living thing.

[Calderis he/him]

Just now, The One Who Connects said:

I say a ring just because it'd be clear as day whether or not it was cut, whereas metal flakes would be speculative. I know it's not the same as Kandra bones in terms of function, but it'd show whether it can solidify to cut things while fuzzed out inside a living thing.

Yeah. As long as the metal is uninvested and internal it would answer it. I also don't think it is that off. 

If a person were wearing a tongue piercing, it would be no different than a Kandra choosing a metal skeleton as they seem to view them as a choice of what to wear. (although the one instance we've seen of this isn't quite applicable as aluminum complicates the issue significantly). 

[+Extesian he/him]

Here is an interesting and not entirely useful WoBs. I spent ages looking for it because I remembered it saying more about Kandra 'life'. I was wrong

Quote

zas678 (Reddit.com)

TenSoon wonders, and I wonder too- How can Kandra think and be sentient without Brains? Doesn't the body need a physical coordinator to relay between the Physical and Cognitive realm? Or do the spikes do a good enough job with that?

Brandon Sanderson (Reddit.com)

I imagine Kandra having a non-centralized nervous system, with brain power spread through their bodies. Well, non-centralized is probably the wrong way to say it. They have lobes of thought and memory attached to muscles here and there, and don't have a single 'brain.' They certainly have brain-like material, though.

Quote

 

 

[Calderis he/him]

18 minutes ago, Extesian said:

Here is an interesting and not entirely useful WoBs. I spent ages looking for it because I remembered it saying more about Kandra 'life'. I was wrong

 

I've always wondered about this. In my head it works this way. 

The Kandra are beings who have had their aspects all separated artificially. The mind, body and spirit can all survive separately, but can't function properly without being interconnected. 

So when the blessings are bestowed, they are integrated together and can finally learn and function properly. 

If the spikes are removed, the separation of their aspects returns their body to an entity that can literally only react to stimuli, while the mind is isolated and degrades due to the lack of self integration with the spiritual aspect. 

If a Shardblade cuts them, it only effects the area the blade itself actually cuts, because their spirit and body are only integrated through an external means (the spikes). 

So the portion of their body that is damaged is killed, but immediately reabsorbed and remade. 

Edited July 17, 2017 by Calderis

[Calderis he/him]

4 minutes ago, FiveLate said:

@Calderis how does your head Canon work concerning the different blessings?  They bring greater connection between specific attributes?

I honestly think their simply named after the human attributes that are in them. 

They need two spikes to integrate their aspects, and those spikes both contain a trait. Maybe only certain combinations work and that's why there are only four(?) blessings. I honestly haven't thought about that part much. 

[+Extesian he/him]

We do know that mistwraiths have a Cognitive block put their by TLR. And we know that a Blessing is needed to give them sapience (two really, but Bleeder made do with one reasonably well, bar a little madness). The four blessings are awareness (heighten physical senses), potency (heighten physical strength), presence (heighten mental fortitude) and stability (heighten emotional fortitude), but more Blessings could exist.

The need for two seems to simply be the level of change that is needed to the subject's physical, cognitive and spiritual aspects

Quote

Zas (Chaos)

Got another one. Why do Kandra need two spikes to have a blessing and to become sentient?

Brandon Sanderson

It is just the nature of how Hemalurgy works. More spikes are capable of changing form and body more, and I didn’t feel that one spike was viable for the alterations that are made to their nature.

The increased holey-ness of your spiritweb makes you more susceptible to interference, but the blessing of presence for example counteracts that (as it did when TenSoon took OreSeur's blessings).

I think @Calderis your ideas on this have a lot of merit. The question is whether it's just a single cognitive block (whatever that means realmatically) or whether their aspects are separated on all three realms. It may not matter much practically. I personally think it's just the physical and cognitive realm that are disconnected and spiking the spiritweb effectively bypasses this cognitive block. I think if it does work the way you propose though, it still works, a Blessing basically either further anchors your cognitive, or your physical, self (potency is clearly physical, awareness is possibly physical or possibly cognitive or both, presence is probably cognitive, and I'm guessing stability is spiritual/cognitive)? (Now I think about it, I should know which realm emotional and sensory are in but they both seem to me to be less clear than what I first assumed).

[Calderis he/him]

13 minutes ago, FiveLate said:

I ways assumed they both contained the same trait.  Simply because there is  no way to get 4 sets of threats from any combination of 2 spikes unless there are only 2 types and the order of insertion matters.

 

The issue here is that once you've broadened hemalurgy to include "human traits" the number of things that can potentially be stolen is ridiculous. So there's all kinds of combinations. 

[Calderis he/him]

2 minutes ago, FiveLate said:

Yes but there are only 4 blessings, so either they use the same spike types for each blessing, or only certain combinations work, or TLR only wanted them to have access to certain blessings.  Palm makes me lean towards the last, and with that that there are many many blessings that the Kanda don't know about.

Oh yeah, that makes total sense. They made Kandra with the paired blessings TLR gave them, and haven't exactly explored what's possible since, because Harmony.

I thought you were saying that there were only 4 blessings total, and I think that's just... No way. There's to many possible combinations of traits. 

[Ceradis]

Well so a wound from a shardblade, say in the shoulder like what happened to Szeth, still severs the soul of the wounded flesh even if it doesn't go through the arm and render the entire thing useless. So my theory is that if a shardblade was used to slice through a kandra's arm, the flesh would die and turn grey but the bone itself would actually be sliced since its not really living. Then however if the dead flesh was sliced away the kandra could just eat more to create more muscle.