Odium is a mini-boss

[Bloodfalcon]

I was just reading some interviews and noticed a couple answers that I personally had not seen before that got me thinking. 

 

 

 

 

CLAYTONPHILLIPS ()

Before Adonalsium shattered, was it consciously opposed by something, be it people or another cosmic force? Is whatever opposed it still around?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes. Yes.

 

 

ADAM

 

Does Hoid believe that Shards are the most powerful thing?

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

 

You'll have to ask him sometime. [gives troll grin]. Or see him get asked something like that sometime. There's argument to be made that right now Harmony is the most powerful thing in the Cosmere.

 

 

OOOOOOk. So I have seen that second one before, but now it makes me really question what the first one means. If Adonalsium had enemies that are still around, one would think they would be a fair bit more powerful than 1/8th of Adonalsium's power. Odium is 1/16th and is considered the single most dangerous thing out there. I'm not very creative, I admit, so really only one scenario comes to mind:

 

It seems to me that Adonalsium was opposed by a group or mob of other beings. No single one of them would be more powerful than Harmony, obviously, but as a group, maybe. It is even possible for them to have magic of their own to fight with (though that may not be necessary):

 

 

LINK389

Before Adonalsium was shattered, was there magic in the Cosmere and what form did it take?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes, and when I write Dragonsteel, you shall see the answer to this.

 

So these beings may have magic on their side, they would be extremely old, and I imagine they still oppose Adonalsium. Dragonsteel is set on Yolen I believe, which is also where Hoid is from, and there is another Brandon quote that Hoid was there when Adonalsium shattered. 

 

I'm beginning to think that the group that is opposed to Adonalsium is one of two options:

 

Hoid + friends - would explain why a group called the 17th shard is chasing him and why he is collecting information and influencing events across all the planets/times. 

 

The Dragons - the ones that Hoid writes the Letter to. They were around back in Dragonsteel, they probably possess their own sort of magic, and that book is where it would be revealed anyway. Hoid is trying to get there help for a single Shard of Adonalsium, so they clearly are OK with taking down Shards even if they have different methods than Hoid. 

 

The reason I don't list the 17th Shard is because of the name. I doubt they were around before Adonalsium shattered into 16 shards.... it sounds like they are trying to help the Adonalsium cause. 

 

So Yeah, I am a little worried for our heroes throughout every series so far, because it seems like they are having problems with Odium while there is a force running around that is probably responsible for Adonalsium shattering, or is at least strong enough to resist Adonalsium. If the 17th Shard is the good guys, they are awful ineffective at the only thing we've seen them trying to do so far. Again, I am worried. 

 

 

Ok. So I could really use some help from the more experienced Cosmere theorists here. Does anyone have any quotes that might relate to this, or go against it? Any other popular theories or pieces of the puzzle that I missed? Thanks!

Edited January 31, 2014 by Bloodfalcon

[Edgedancer]

The only semmy interesting thig that I could add is that in Warbreaker chapter 32 Hoid claimed this:

"I learned it many, many years ago from a man who didn’t know who he was, Your Majesty. It was a distant place where two lands meet and gods have died. But that is unimportant.”

when Siri asked him where he lerned his storytelling methode.

So maybe only a part of what opposed Adonalasium is still around and the anti-Adonalasium "died as well," something completly different like Adonalasium having a "wife" thats also gone to or Hoid is just plain lying.

[Bloodfalcon]

That's a good quote Edgedancer! Thanks! That "Adonalsium's wife" idea is interesting. Wife, Brother, really any relationship I suppose. I think they would have to be entirely dead if that were the case though. We would probably know if there were Shards of a different being that powerful. 

[woolite]

I always figured that the group opposing Adonalsium are the people who ended up with the shards after the shattering. 

[Bloodfalcon]

I always figured that the group opposing Adonalsium are the people who ended up with the shards after the shattering. 

 

I assumed that as well for a long time just off of the fact that now they control the powers and split up with them instead of trying to reforge Adonalsium. However, at that point they would have just been a small group of humans on Yolen. There was other magic in the Cosmere, but I think Brandon (or Peter?) said that it was minor in comparison. It doesn't leave a lot of hope that a small group of humans defeated him... 

 

But I wouldn't be unhappy if that were the case, because that puts us in a pretty good position! Harmony is 2 of them and he is a good guy so far!

[Moogle]

But I wouldn't be unhappy if that were the case, because that puts us in a pretty good position! Harmony is 2 of them and he is a good guy so far!

 

What do you mean? He's been effectively worthless (the best he can do is give people the occasional gun). His policy of nonintervention leads to horrible suffering. If Sazed has been implementing a long plan to lead Scadrial into paradise, then we certainly haven't seen it.

[Bloodfalcon]

What do you mean? He's been effectively worthless (the best he can do is give people the occasional gun). His policy of nonintervention leads to horrible suffering. If Sazed has been implementing a long plan to lead Scadrial into paradise, then we certainly haven't seen it.

 

He knows next to zero percent of what is actually going on  in the Cosmere. If he found out, it may not take intervention on his part. Perhaps only cooperation or submission to a being that was looking to unite the Shards. Really any worldhopper could explain more. We haven't seen how he would react to learning of events on the other planets, either. The nature of Harmony might be directly opposed to what Odium has been causing elsewhere. Harmony says in really plain terms that he doesn't know enough to be effective on a large scale. 

[Moogle]

He knows next to zero percent of what is actually going on  in the Cosmere. If he found out, it may not take intervention on his part. Perhaps only cooperation or submission to a being that was looking to unite the Shards. Really any worldhopper could explain more. We haven't seen how he would react to learning of events on the other planets, either. The nature of Harmony might be directly opposed to what Odium has been causing elsewhere. Harmony says in really plain terms that he doesn't know enough to be effective on a large scale. 

 

I apologize, but I cannot accept this. Vin was effectively omniscient on Scadrial, capable of seeing the entire planet. Harmony has two Shards, and only has to really look after one city. His power is unopposed on Scadrial. If there's a single person that has starved, or died to a serial killer, or who died of a sickness, then Harmony failed.

 

How many kidnapped women cry themselves to sleep as they're raped every night by the Set so they can be broodmares?

 

Bloody Tan killed how many people? Twenty? Thirty? A hundred? Harmony has an excess of Ruin. He could have used that to disintegrate Bloody Tan with no more effort required than lifting a finger. Harmony can see the future quite effectively, since he has Preservation (if this power was lost, let me know), so he would know what Tan was going to do before he did it.

 

If he has seen the future, and is working towards the best possible future, then I retract any criticism I have levied against him, but we've seen no evidence of that.

 

If Harmony cannot do anything because his Intent forces him not to, I understand. Maybe Preservation and Ruin simply cannot work together effectively (doubtful, though, considering Sazed fixed the planet). Maybe he is doing the best he can by manipulating people in small ways. I suspect, however, that it has to do with Sazed's personal policy of nonintervention.

 

I stand by my description of him: he's mostly worthless if all he can do is teleport the occasional trunk that contains guns.

 

I disagree with the description of Sazed as a 'good guy' because of all this. I wouldn't apply the adjective to an armed man who walked uncaring by a mugger stealing an old lady's purse. If he has been trying his best, then again I retract my criticism, but I feel it it is quite likely he has the power to do more than he has. (Sorry for starting another discussion like this.)

Edited February 10, 2014 by Moogle

[Swimmingly]

Do remember that Sazed was raised beneath the rule of an all-powerful god-emperor that employed drastic measures to maintain his power and his peace. I think that Sazed might flich at the idea of becoming a new Lord Ruler, especially one so powerful that a Kelsier-style rebellion could not even begin to exist.

[Bloodfalcon]

I apologize, but I cannot accept this. Vin was effectively omniscient on Scadrial, capable of seeing the entire planet. Harmony has two Shards, and only has to really look after one city. His power is unopposed on Scadrial. If there's a single person that has starved, or died to a serial killer, or who died of a sickness, then Harmony failed.

I think you are mistaking exactly what it means to hold two Shards. You have Preservation and you have Ruin, and then you have Preservation+Ruin. They were in balance (mostly) before the events of the Mistborn series, so why shouldn't they be balance now? Of course Sazed doesn't seem evil, but apparently Ruin's Shardholder was corrupted over time. The nature of the Shard dominates. So Sazed still has the two balancing his actions. It makes all the sense that the world is basically the same in terms of good to evil ratio. 

And it is not even good to evil. Ruin doesn't represent evil, he represents the breaking down of things over time. A Shardworld with only one Shard present doesn't have infinite life or death depending on whether the Shard is a good guy or a bad guy. Not really anything like that, except for Odium so far as I know, but we really don't even know all that much about what he is willing to support. We just know he wants these couple planets to go through some stuff, hahaha

[Moogle]

Do remember that Sazed was raised beneath the rule of an all-powerful god-emperor that employed drastic measures to maintain his power and his peace. I think that Sazed might flich at the idea of becoming a new Lord Ruler, especially one so powerful that a Kelsier-style rebellion could not even begin to exist.

 

I understand that. I think I came across too strongly in my post. I can understand Sazed, and I'm not trying to argue it doesn't make sense for the character. I'm just trying to say that I think he's squandering his power and could use it more effectively.

 

I think you are mistaking exactly what it means to hold two Shards. You have Preservation and you have Ruin, and then you have Preservation+Ruin. They were in balance (mostly) before the events of the Mistborn series, so why shouldn't they be balance now?

 

I'm basing this on the fact that Sazed healed the entire world and changed everything, when Ruin was focused on destroying the world. This seems completely opposed to Ruin's intent, so I think that Sazed can 'override' his Shards.

 

Whether or not he can after being corrupted by the overpowering Intents for hundreds of years is another question. I'm not trying to judge him (though I guess I come across that way), I'm just trying to say that I think he's near-useless and could do a lot more.

 

It might even be worth it for someone to get Harmony off Scadrial, separate him into Preservation and Ruin, and then Splinter Ruin, leaving Preservation to help protect mankind. (Preservation is about preserving life, which would be a step up from Harmony.)

Edited February 10, 2014 by Moogle

[Swimmingly]

Unless his grand plan is to nurture civilisation with all its challenges and flaws to bring mankind unto the stars by the force of their own invention, so that when the first colony of Scadrian settlers finds their way to a planet beyond his direct influence, they shall neverless prosper and be merry for untold generations, bringing the gospel of Harmony into the unplumbed voidish depth and spreading peace and wisdom grown from maturity as a race, as opposed to creating a forced utopia where all evil is dealt with in a way that Nightblood would understand in the core of his being?

[WeiryWriter]

He knows next to zero percent of what is actually going on  in the Cosmere. If he found out, it may not take intervention on his part. Perhaps only cooperation or submission to a being that was looking to unite the Shards. Really any worldhopper could explain more. We haven't seen how he would react to learning of events on the other planets, either. The nature of Harmony might be directly opposed to what Odium has been causing elsewhere. Harmony says in really plain terms that he doesn't know enough to be effective on a large scale. 

 

Actually no, Sazed is quite aware of what is happening on Roshar, so I would not say he "knows next to zero percent of what is actually going on in the cosmere."  Also when he says he doesn't know much, it is when he is still extremely new to the power, I believe, so he just hasn't time to learn anything.

[Moogle]

Unless his grand plan is to nurture civilisation with all its challenges and flaws to bring mankind unto the stars by the force of their own invention, so that when the first colony of Scadrian settlers finds their way to a planet beyond his direct influence, they shall neverless prosper and be merry for untold generations, bringing the gospel of Harmony into the unplumbed voidish depth and spreading peace and wisdom grown from maturity as a race, as opposed to creating a forced utopia where all evil is dealt with in a way that Nightblood would understand in the core of his being?

 

I am sure, with godlike intelligence, that Sazed could find ways to deal with serial killers that don't involve killing them. Killing them was just an easy idea. Manipulating people he knows will become serial killers from birth should be doable with his ability to see the future and have the Faceless Immortals carry out his will, if nothing else.

 

And as to that grand plan, I don't believe that fits in with what we know of Sazed. Sazed is taking a very hands-off approach and letting nature run its course, he doesn't seem to be trying to 'nurture civilization'. Even if that was his plan, I take major issue with his implementation of the plan. Humanity can be nurtured and grown and face challenges without having to deal with sickness.

 

Sazed could have included an entire textbook on medicine for the people of Scadrial just to start them on the path to healing all disease. I do not think this would be sufficient to stunt humanity's growth, and if it does, so what? In exchange no one dies in agony of preventable disease. (All disease is preventable when you've got a Shard.)

 

I suspect there are tons of ways to bring humans to a state of enlightenment ala Star Trek without requiring the rape of dozens of women so that a serial killer Mistborn can be created. Sazed can literally see the future and has a brain the size of a planet, after all.

[Swimmingly]

Maybe the perspective of a Shard simply sees things like that as unimportant in the long run - or perhaps, vitally important. Personally, I'd rather a god that keeps his nose out of things and steps in with a nudge here and there than a god that solves all problems. Perhaps you're just thinking on a different scale of problems.

[Moogle]

Maybe the perspective of a Shard simply sees things like that as unimportant in the long run - or perhaps, vitally important. Personally, I'd rather a god that keeps his nose out of things and steps in with a nudge here and there than a god that solves all problems. Perhaps you're just thinking on a different scale of problems.

 

I think that's a false dichotomy. I am not suggesting that Sazed personally control the actions of each and every human. I am suggesting he fix basic problems (people dying of sickness and old age) and try to prevent humans from murdering each other through use of his godlike intellect. He already did this in part by fixing the bodies of humans adapted to breathe in ash.

 

If Sazed sees people dying in agony as 'unimportant' in the long run, then I think we're in agreement: Sazed is pretty much useless and is bad at helping.

[Bloodfalcon]

I understand that. I think I came across too strongly in my post. I can understand Sazed, and I'm not trying to argue it doesn't make sense for the character. I'm just trying to say that I think he's squandering his power and could use it more effectively.

 

Oh, yeah, I may have interpreted your tone poorly, sorry. I agree with you on the "could do more" part of things. Especially after you see how hopeless and depressed Sazed comes to be. It really is a lot to ignore that mindset when he gets hold of the Shards. I would think his response would be to correct those things that he had been doubting for so long. Going on a helpful spree would do the trick. Shardic influence is going to have to be explained pretty thoroughly at some point. 

Actually no, Sazed is quite aware of what is happening on Roshar, so I would not say he "knows next to zero percent of what is actually going on in the cosmere."  Also when he says he doesn't know much, it is when he is still extremely new to the power, I believe, so he just hasn't time to learn anything.

 

 

woah, thanks for that interview link, Wiery. All my time on this site and I'm not sure I've seen that page. 

The reference in question is curious though. Considering WoK happens between Mistborn and AoL (toward the back end I believe), wouldn't that mean that Sazed has around 800 years or something to learn about Roshar? In that 800 years on Roshar a lot happened. I guess the quote where he says he isn't really that informed is potentially 800 years before WoK, so  he could be watching Roshar for around that long. If that was the case, would he even see much of Odium on the planet, or Honor for that matter? I think even then he would be aware of what was going on, but he still might not be knowledgeable enough to go take action. 

 

What do you think?

[WeiryWriter]

woah, thanks for that interview link, Wiery. All my time on this site and I'm not sure I've seen that page. 

The reference in question is curious though. Considering WoK happens between Mistborn and AoL (toward the back end I believe), wouldn't that mean that Sazed has around 800 years or something to learn about Roshar? In that 800 years on Roshar a lot happened. I guess the quote where he says he isn't really that informed is potentially 800 years before WoK, so  he could be watching Roshar for around that long. If that was the case, would he even see much of Odium on the planet, or Honor for that matter? I think even then he would be aware of what was going on, but he still might not be knowledgeable enough to go take action. 

 

What do you think?

 

Its still relatively new, I think it got posted in December?

 

And I believe AoL and WoK are roughly contemporaneous, so it would only be about 350 years, not 800.  And the quote saying he is not informed is from his note to Spook, I think, which would be from literally right after his accession.

[Crewleader Theron]

 

 

I stand by my description of him: he's mostly worthless if all he can do is teleport the occasional trunk that contains guns.

 

 

I was always under the impression that he didn't even teleport the trunk full of guns.  He nudged Wax into thinking the best thing to do was to put his guns in the trunk and give them to the butler.  Harmony knew the butler would take the trunk back to the hideout-and then nudged wax to go find that exact spot.

 

Just my theory anyways.

Edited February 14, 2014 by Crewleader Theron

[Metacognition]

Well this got off topic quickly. Personally, I think that the "force" that opposed Adonalsium was humanity. 

 

That would account for Harmony still being the most powerful thing in the Cosmere, but also allow that force to still be present. I think that when Brandon said Hoid was present at the Shattering, he didn't mention why Hoid was there on purpose. It also answers why Brandon said that the argument could be made that Sazed was the most powerful thing in the Cosmere. Technically, he would be, but with humanity spread out across so many worlds, it could easily be argued that they are more powerful. 

 

It would also explain why every Shardholder was human (or at least as far as we know of the Shardholders so far) when we know that dragons also existed during that time. 

 

What this doesn't explain is why the 17th Shard is after Hoid. This is an area of speculation that I think the entire forum would like an answer to, as all we have are guesses. Is he trying to put back together Adonalsium? Create it anew? Something else entirely? 

 

Now this is entirely speculation on my part, but I think that whatever Hoid is up to, it might just cause humanity as a whole to lose whatever edge they have now. What if the 17th is after him because they fear the loss of power they've gained throughout the Cosmere? That would explain why people from each and every world would be hunting him down, as whatever he is doing would effect all of their worlds. 

 

So to sum it up, humanity wasn't as large or as powerful a force back on Yolen and they fought to free themselves and shattered Adonalsium. Hoid realized that they had made a huge mistake and is spending his time trying to correct it somehow. The 17th is trying to stop him as they don't want to go back to the way things were. 

 

Thoughts?

[Edgedancer]

@Meta: Makes sense and I like it. Just leaves the question what position the dragons might have had in all of this, if they have one unified role at all. If I remember the letter right then Hoid calls a dragons the friend of the 17th shard, so they might have helped humanity in their uprising.

However he refers to the dragons "insistence on nonintervention" which makes a direct partaking in the events less likely or in a less elegant formulation, I have no clue what their role was but I enjoy guessing.

 

He also refers to a quest against Rayse and Bavadin, that is at least in parts based on a grudge and will shake the very pillars of the sky. For me this sound as if Hoid has a more pressing goal at the moment than restoring Adonalasium. Of course this dosen´t mean that restoring Adonalasium isn´t a long term goal, it just means that there is more going on at the moment.

 

On the whole Harmony buisness. Personaly I prefer him to take a more passive role. When a deity of his weightclass decides to go police force then free will gets pretty much intimidated away.

[Bloodfalcon]

Well this got off topic quickly. Personally, I think that the "force" that opposed Adonalsium was humanity. 

 

That would account for Harmony still being the most powerful thing in the Cosmere, but also allow that force to still be present. I think that when Brandon said Hoid was present at the Shattering, he didn't mention why Hoid was there on purpose. It also answers why Brandon said that the argument could be made that Sazed was the most powerful thing in the Cosmere. Technically, he would be, but with humanity spread out across so many worlds, it could easily be argued that they are more powerful. 

 

It would also explain why every Shardholder was human (or at least as far as we know of the Shardholders so far) when we know that dragons also existed during that time. 

 

What this doesn't explain is why the 17th Shard is after Hoid. This is an area of speculation that I think the entire forum would like an answer to, as all we have are guesses. Is he trying to put back together Adonalsium? Create it anew? Something else entirely? 

 

Now this is entirely speculation on my part, but I think that whatever Hoid is up to, it might just cause humanity as a whole to lose whatever edge they have now. What if the 17th is after him because they fear the loss of power they've gained throughout the Cosmere? That would explain why people from each and every world would be hunting him down, as whatever he is doing would effect all of their worlds. 

 

So to sum it up, humanity wasn't as large or as powerful a force back on Yolen and they fought to free themselves and shattered Adonalsium. Hoid realized that they had made a huge mistake and is spending his time trying to correct it somehow. The 17th is trying to stop him as they don't want to go back to the way things were. 

 

Thoughts?

That was kind of my point in my initial post. That a human force could be the opposition to Adonalsium, but we know that at the time they had less technology than we do at this point in real world time, and I can't see them doing much with very little technology against the greatest source of magic in the Cosmere.

[Swimmingly]

What if it's just the Cognitive and Spiritual presence of humanity that was the pressure shattering Adonalsium? Not so much a malevolent force, just a buildup of other sentient entities that drove Adonalsium to Shatter in a subtle way? Here's another thought - what if Adonalsium's Shattering was a paternalistic gesture, passing it's power into a form that humans could handle? Kind of writing your will then commuting suicide.

[Bloodfalcon]

What if it's just the Cognitive and Spiritual presence of humanity that was the pressure shattering Adonalsium? Not so much a malevolent force, just a buildup of other sentient entities that drove Adonalsium to Shatter in a subtle way? Here's another thought - what if Adonalsium's Shattering was a paternalistic gesture, passing it's power into a form that humans could handle? Kind of writing your will then commuting suicide.

The Cognitive and Spiritual pressure theory is neat if a bit dull for such a big event. I don't mind the idea of Adonalsium shattering himself though. Whether it was an inheritance or maybe his inner pieces arguing (we have it on pretty good authority that some of them don't get along   ), that is a fun idea. I wonder if Adonalsium was a personal god-being. What is his default personality like and does he hang out on Yolen with some dragons and just chill, or does he just fly around space?

[Swimmingly]

Harmony is made of two totally opposite Shards, remember, and he gets along just fine - we think. I don't think his aspects would cause him to shatter any more than your oesophagus and bowels don't get along, even though they do more or less opposite things.