WORDS OF RADIANCE SPOILERS - Adolin's Consequences in "Oathbringer"

ZenBossanova · March 18, 2017

On 3/13/2017 at 11:51 AM, Lwarch said:

I bet some type of exile will be his consequence. Dalinar will probably argue with the ruling, which will be a huge conflict in the book.

There will be consequences. This is Brandon we are talking about. Everything has consequences.

He did break the law. And yes, it will be against the law. You can expect the Alethi to be murderous on the battlefield, but especially prim elsewhere. If they could have just murdered him, they would have already done it.

But Adolin is also a Shardbearer. How can you punish a shardbearer? That is a little tricky. Death is probably off the table, but exile certainly is not. That is probably the most likely. And it makes for a nice symmetry with Kaladin. Here, we have a lighteyes, forced into living among darkeyes.

A very nice intro to him becoming a Dustbringer (my personal guess) or an Edgedancer, is him, in exile, forced to work for a living, and when cheated by some local lord,... well, outrageous odds will do little to slow him down, with or without a shardblade.

March 18, 2017

1 minute ago, ZenBossanova said:

There will be consequences. This is Brandon we are talking about. Everything has consequences.

He did break the law. And yes, it will be against the law. You can expect the Alethi to be murderous on the battlefield, but especially prim elsewhere. If they could have just murdered him, they would have already done it.

But Adolin is also a Shardbearer. How can you punish a shardbearer? That is a little tricky. Death is probably off the table, but exile certainly is not. That is probably the most likely. And it makes for a nice symmetry with Kaladin. Here, we have a lighteyes, forced into living among darkeyes.

A very nice intro to him becoming a Dustbringer (my personal guess) or an Edgedancer, is him, in exile, forced to work for a living, and when cheated by some local lord,... well, outrageous odds will do little to slow him down, with or without a shardblade.

And how do you pull of your suggested story arc considering the fact isn't scheduled to have much more than 2-3 viewpoints chapter in Oathbringer and probably less in book 4 (as we seem to be going on a downhill slope here)? I mean, this isn't a critic and maybe it is I who is lacking imagination, but I just can't see it. Putting it all into an interlude also doesn't work out, interlude characters aren't chosen at random: they all are characters having no ties with the actual main narrative, but scheduled to grow into it, eventually. Adolin just isn't a contender.

It has always been my major source of conflict when it comes to potential story arcs, especially the exile one. It can't happen unless Adolin earns a spot within the main narrative, but since Brandon is adamant this will never happen... we aren't left with many possibilities.

For the rest, I definitely think Dustbringers are out of the window: Brandon more or less rules them out for Adolin. Anyway, I don't think the character fits into this order.

ZenBossanova · March 18, 2017

My

Just now, maxal said:

And how do you pull of your suggested story arc considering the fact isn't scheduled to have much more than 2-3 viewpoints chapter in Oathbringer and probably less in book 4 (as we seem to be going on a downhill slope here)? I mean, this isn't a critic and maybe it is I who is lacking imagination, but I just can't see it. Putting it all into an interlude also doesn't work out, interlude characters aren't chosen at random: they all are characters having no ties with the actual main narrative, but scheduled to grow into it, eventually. Adolin just isn't a contender.

I expect that Adolin will move into the background for a long time, perhaps even until book 6 or later. He isn't going to get off easy.

And why not an interlude? It is just enough to remind people he is still around, and to see a bit of the world you wouldn't otherwise. And if he is out of the main narrative, that is perfect. At least it would be perfect for book 4,5.

I still think Dustbringer for Adolin, but that is really hard to argue, because we know very, very little about them.

dyring · March 18, 2017

I dont see them proving it. He will need to confess for there to be consequences.

Noone saw it. Yes, its against the law, but noone saw it. Most would propably just think Sadeas was an idiot for going alone among enemies. And even if they figured out it was Adolin, a simple "Sadeas charged me from the dark to get revenge at Dalinar for winning in politics" would propably do it. The one who might be disapointed would be Dalinar, many of the other highprinces would likely be more impressed then anything else.

March 19, 2017

6 hours ago, ZenBossanova said:

My

I expect that Adolin will move into the background for a long time, perhaps even until book 6 or later. He isn't going to get off easy.

And why not an interlude? It is just enough to remind people he is still around, and to see a bit of the world you wouldn't otherwise. And if he is out of the main narrative, that is perfect. At least it would be perfect for book 4,5.

I still think Dustbringer for Adolin, but that is really hard to argue, because we know very, very little about them.

I certainly hope you are wrong because Adolin moving into the background for the remaining of the series would quite potentially destroy my entire interest in it. In other words, Brandon's story might be amazing, but I am not interested in reading it if Adolin doesn't have a role to play in it. It is a crude and bold statement, but that's how it is. Removing Adolin from the story without giving him a decent story arc, for me, would be the equivalent as if Brandon were to remove Kaladin from it to others: a massive show stopper.

Why not an interlude? Because it isn't much, it hardly counts as a narrative and it is too scattered to truly form a cohesive story. Waiting 4 years to read nothing but one chapter mentioning Adolin just isn't going to do it, for me, as a reader. It might be what Brandon has in mind, but he might lose me as a fan if he goes down this way. In other words, it would form such an unsatisfying, disappointing story arc for a character many readers have built up so many high expectations for, I would lose all faith within the author's ability to conduct his story in a satisfying manner. Why bother reading if as soon as I get hook onto a story arc, it gets drop almost immediately, without any closure? Why bother with it if, as soon as one character starts to get very interesting, he gets sent away in order to make more room for other characters having have close to no exposure within the main narrative?

So why bother? Nothing is more unsatisfying, for a reader, to read a massive built up, to read a cliffhanger only to realize there is no follow-up. Already, I deeply fear there is no follow-up for Adolin as Brandon did cut down his story arc to a bare minimum, so if you are right and he does send him away to an interlude, it would be such a hard blow I honestly doubt my interest within the series would survive. I just do not want to invest myself in characters, to expect them to grow based on the very same main narrative which allowed me to love them in the first place, only to be told by the author: "Nah, fooled you. I never had any intention to develop Adolin nor to give him a story arc. I just wrote WoR because I thought I'd trump on your expectations and crush them mercilessly.".

I expect many things when I read, I expect the unexpected, I expect to travel, to read a tale, to live with those characters for a while, but I do not expect to see characters being built only to be ignored in the sequels. Thus, if Adolin was such an impossibility within Brandon grand plan, then he shouldn't have written him in WoR. Thus, if you are right, then Brandon made a serious mistake in giving Adolin viewpoints in WoR.

For the rest, we do not know much about the Dustbringers, agree, but I find brave and obedient to be an ill-fit, so to me, they aren't a contender. Obviously, a lot of readers YMMV, but I am rather convinced on my side. Also, Brandon specifically said we would have to wait for a member of this order to become a main protagonist before learning more about them: since Adolin is never getting this promotion, he is ruled out. Unless you envision him being removed from the story four 4-5 books only to be brought back in book 8, but quite frankly, this would such an anti-climatic story arc, I can't believe Brandon would go for it.

Edited March 19, 2017 by maxal

king of nowhere · March 19, 2017

It's funny how we are trying to make prediction based on storytelling conventions that are only loose guidelines at best. It reminded me of a character from "the order of the stick" (whom any reader will identify, but I don't mention her name to avoid spoilers for eventual future readers). she was good with several issues, then she had a series of breakdown, she got crazy and did some really stupid stuff, and then... she died. the author wrote that sometimes life does not give us a chance to fix our messes.

Who knows what brandon has in store for us?

March 19, 2017

1 hour ago, king of nowhere said:

It's funny how we are trying to make prediction based on storytelling conventions that are only loose guidelines at best. It reminded me of a character from "the order of the stick" (whom any reader will identify, but I don't mention her name to avoid spoilers for eventual future readers). she was good with several issues, then she had a series of breakdown, she got crazy and did some really stupid stuff, and then... she died. the author wrote that sometimes life does not give us a chance to fix our messes.

Who knows what brandon has in store for us?

Obviously, authors can write whichever plot twists they see fit to write, but offing and/or removing from the story the character having one of the most anticipated read hardly seems to be as the "best possible" move to ensure readers satisfaction. Of course, an author might not strive to create feelings of satisfaction within their readers, but then again why else do we read fantasy? We do not read it in order to enlighten our spirits, we read because it is fun, it is imaginative and it offers escapism. If a story stops being pleasant because the author never follows up on his most anticipated story arcs, then yes there are those who would go and read elsewhere. Mind, a story arc might not happen as the readers wished and/or expected, but it has to happen.

While there are several story telling conventions and it might be we are looking too strongly in them, there is one convention I do think must apply: when you give a given character a trigger moment and a cliffhanger, you follow up on what happens to said character. You do not toss his story arc away or have another character mention within a few one liners what happens to him: you explore it because readers expect it so strongly, you will disappoint them if you don't. And well, when an author starts to disappoint, faith within future books diminishes.

I do not want this to happen to SA, but part of me deeply fears Brandon made a terrible mistake when he decided to tell the "murder of Sadeas" story from Adolin's viewpoint. Since he apparently has absolutely no intention to follow-up on the the character, then he shouldn't have used his viewpoints to tell the story, he shouldn't have written Adolin talking to his Blade, he shouldn't have written him wanting to protect his father: he shouldn't have given the character a beginning of a story if he had no desire to write it.

Thus, if others and all the clues I have gathered are right and Brandon indeed sends Adolin away onto a mere one chapter per book interlude just because he has no desire to alter his plans to include the character within the story, then I will call it a narrative mistake. The mistake would not have been to not use Adolin, it would have been to create the impression he would use the character, to have allowed readers to expect he would built on the character and to have written a cliffhanger without offering any resolution to be seen from the viewpoint of the main participant.

WhiteLeeopard · March 19, 2017

Maxal, hope for the best, plan for the worst!

You are already planning for the worst, which is always good, but don't lose faith and keep hoping that Adolin will get a good resolution (okay, not good, as nothing short of an entire pov book would be good, but sufficient resolution). I was just reading a reddit thread of your favorite moments of SA and over one third were Adolin's duel, and Adolin offs Sadeas. I find it hard to believe an author as skilled as Brandon would make a character which so many people are paying close attention to (even if he got said character by accident) and then just remove him because he wasn't part of the orginal outline. One of his traits is that Brandon does not kill characters for the shock of it, or because it is/isn't expected, he does with his characters what feels right, and I find it hard to believe tossing out Adolin will feel right to anyone.

Personally, I am fully behind you (although I really don't want him to lose his shardblade, that would be almost like losing part of his soul), Adolin is my favorite Kholin, Jasnah is close behind, but still on second place, Dalinar, my main issue with him is his ocassional blindness and how he treats Adolin and Elhokar respectively, Renarin...I don't feel I've seen enough of him to say anything, he seems nice enough but always falls into the background for me on all his scenes due to how Adolin is usually there (of course, I get that that is probably how we are meant to feel), Elhokar...well not much of a fan. But overall, the Kholin family feels very tightly knit together, and Adolin been kicked out would most likely shake the foundations quite badly, specially considering that Jasnah would likely just ask why they didn't send assasins after sadeas earlier on. And using Adolin been sent out of the action to "evolve" the other kholins just feels cheap. Adolin's thread has been one of the most anticipated for oathbringer, a bust there would dissapoint many, even if just a slight bad feeling (not just us Adolin groupies ).

March 19, 2017

1 hour ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Maxal, hope for the best, plan for the worst!

Yep. I'll admit I am a naturally pessimistic individual, unless anyone hasn't noticed I much, much prefer to anticipate for the worst than to keep on hoping for the best. I would, obviously, prefer to know I can safely hope for the best, but sadly the author hasn't given me reasons to believe he has written a satisfactory Adolin character arc, one which spans over more than one or two short chapters.

1 hour ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

You are already planning for the worst, which is always good, but don't lose faith and keep hoping that Adolin will get a good resolution (okay, not good, as nothing short of an entire pov book would be good, but sufficient resolution). I was just reading a reddit thread of your favorite moments of SA and over one third were Adolin's duel, and Adolin offs Sadeas. I find it hard to believe an author as skilled as Brandon would make a character which so many people are paying close attention to (even if he got said character by accident) and then just remove him because he wasn't part of the orginal outline. One of his traits is that Brandon does not kill characters for the shock of it, or because it is/isn't expected, he does with his characters what feels right, and I find it hard to believe tossing out Adolin will feel right to anyone.

The problem is while Brandon is aware of Adolin's popularity, he has yet to acknowledge it and/or to assess it. It often seems as if the character wasn't even an integral member of the cast, as if he were rank several levels below Jasnah/Renarin/Lift and yet, I haven't been reading about those characters within the first two books, but I have been reading about Adolin.

Seven updates we have had for SA and Brandon has never seen fit to address the huge expectations readers have had for Adolin. He has seen fit to broach Renarin, Jasnah and other characters readers might have had expectations, but Adolin?

That's what's been bothering for the last year or so: the author's reluctance to speak of Adolin, to rank him as a character and when he said he didn't find him interesting, he broke my literal heart.

1 hour ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Personally, I am fully behind you (although I really don't want him to lose his shardblade, that would be almost like losing part of his soul), Adolin is my favorite Kholin, Jasnah is close behind, but still on second place, Dalinar, my main issue with him is his ocassional blindness and how he treats Adolin and Elhokar respectively, Renarin...I don't feel I've seen enough of him to say anything, he seems nice enough but always falls into the background for me on all his scenes due to how Adolin is usually there (of course, I get that that is probably how we are meant to feel), Elhokar...well not much of a fan. But overall, the Kholin family feels very tightly knit together, and Adolin been kicked out would most likely shake the foundations quite badly, specially considering that Jasnah would likely just ask why they didn't send assasins after sadeas earlier on. And using Adolin been sent out of the action to "evolve" the other kholins just feels cheap. Adolin's thread has been one of the most anticipated for oathbringer, a bust there would dissapoint many, even if just a slight bad feeling (not just us Adolin groupies ).

Ah, so I am not the only one which feels there is something odd within Dalinar's behavior towards both Adolin and Elhokar, though not for the same reasons. I have always felt Dalinar was using Adolin more than anything, using the fact his son would do anything for him, even dying, yet he never acknowledges his efforts and refrains from allowing him the chance to just... be his son. Elhokar, I feel it is the complete opposite: he protects him, he shelters him and he refuses to see his wrongs, to even try to correct them, to educate him when it is needed, he just allows him to do as he wish because he has too much guilt over Gavilar dying.

Renarin is a character I have always have much trouble with. I feel Dalinar is spoiling him, is being too indulgent with him and it makes Renarin appears undeserving. Hopefully, this will be rectify within the next book. This being said, I really love the brother/brother relationship in between Adolin/Renarin. I love how Adolin has given up his need for parental affection/love to his brother benefit and how he didn't hold Renarin responsible for it. I love how Renarin never grew jealous of Adolin despite him being all he has ever wished to be.

These are all story arcs which I wish to be explored: they aren't just about Adolin, but he is an important aspect of them.

I would hate for Brandon to toss Adolin away just because he needs Dalinar to evolve...

Yeah, Adolin is a highly anticipated story arc. I have been a very active member of this fandom for the past three years and there has been Adolin related thread being launched about once every 2-3 weeks. His name comes across quite often and while I have actively participate on those, it hardly was a monologue. Obviously not everyone agrees with how I read the character, but many agree on wanting to read a follow-up for him, whatever it might be.

It is great to have other readers being willing to be positive and encouraging towards Adolin's role in Oathbringer. I have given a lot to the Adolin fandom in the past three years, I have gotten at a point where I just wish the author would acknowledge it, just as he has acknowledge other characters fandom, and give us a bit of hope.

king of nowhere · March 19, 2017

I'm just saying that adolin does not necessarily need to have his own arc to gain resolution, nor does he need to die or be exiled (disappear from the story) to avoid cluttering the narrative. there are dozens of ways brandon could keep him a secondary character while giving him a satisfying story. I'm now thinking of thom merrilin; he was a secondary character always in the shadow of the main protagonists, yet he has a fulfilling story. adolin could have a role like that maybe. but the fact that brandon mentioned that adolin's evolution is the most surprising (something like that) makes me think that our "most likely" ideas are bound to be wrong.

Anyway, if adolin dies a meaningful death accomplishing something useful, I'd still call it a good story. I'm sure adolin wouldn't mind dieing for something greater than him. Now I'm thinking of siuan sanche, and by extension gareth bryne. Sad story, but also inspiring, and the characters walked into it with their eyes open.

I am a peculiar brand of optimistic. I expect things to go wrong, but I also am fully confident that they can be fixed. Well, things already went wrong, with brandon having little interest in writing adolin. this can be fixed, in that brandon can write adolin a good story nonetheless. who knows, maybe he'll write a story about a character he's not interested in as a writing excercice?

March 20, 2017

2 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

I'm just saying that adolin does not necessarily need to have his own arc to gain resolution, nor does he need to die or be exiled (disappear from the story) to avoid cluttering the narrative. there are dozens of ways brandon could keep him a secondary character while giving him a satisfying story. I'm now thinking of thom merrilin; he was a secondary character always in the shadow of the main protagonists, yet he has a fulfilling story. adolin could have a role like that maybe. but the fact that brandon mentioned that adolin's evolution is the most surprising (something like that) makes me think that our "most likely" ideas are bound to be wrong.

The problem is I do draw a difference in between viewpoint characters and non-viewpoint characters. Thom Merrilin was a non-viewpoint character which is why I never expected him to get anything more than a... secondary non-viewpoint character. In this optic, his character arc was satisfying, but it wouldn't work with Adolin,.

Why?

Because Adolin is a viewpoint character, worst not only is he a viewpoint character, he has had almost has many viewpoints as Dalinar. Ask any casual reader and they do rank Adolin up there among the major guys, together with Kaladin, Shallan and Dalinar, not down there with the minor POV-less characters such as Renarin. Yes. Renarin and Jasnah. they remain POV-less (or almost POV-less) characters within the story which is why readers do not necessarily expect a lot out of them going into the next book. It doesn't matter the author has said they would become Major Characters in the future: they Aren't Now. Adolin is more Major than They. Hence, to treat Adolin as is he were just a minor character is wrong, plain wrong.

As for the WoB, Brandon referred to his initial planning: it didn't speak of our speculations. Thus I think he meant it is unpredictable based on his first writing, perhaps not to us.

2 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

Anyway, if adolin dies a meaningful death accomplishing something useful, I'd still call it a good story. I'm sure adolin wouldn't mind dieing for something greater than him. Now I'm thinking of siuan sanche, and by extension gareth bryne. Sad story, but also inspiring, and the characters walked into it with their eyes open.

Gareth Bryne and Siuan Sanche died at the very end of WoT: they didn't die in book 3. Their ending was death, but they had a story before they got there. While Adolin might be willing to die, I can say for a fact many readers wouldn't be pleased with it. Again, I would state killing Adolin now just erased all which Brandon has written with the character: it makes every single one of those chapters meaningless, useless. Now, an author can go for the shock factor, but shock factor can definitely alienate your readership.

2 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

I am a peculiar brand of optimistic. I expect things to go wrong, but I also am fully confident that they can be fixed. Well, things already went wrong, with brandon having little interest in writing adolin. this can be fixed, in that brandon can write adolin a good story nonetheless. who knows, maybe he'll write a story about a character he's not interested in as a writing excercice?

That's the problem... You have said it yourself: Brandon is just not interested in writing Adolin. It isn't about him not fitting within his plan: he could have adjusted the plan to make room for him. Didn't he write several "fluff" chapters which serve no other purpose than to provide harmless "fluff"? If he can incorporate those within his story, then he can give Adolin a decent story arc. If he doesn't, then it is just because he doesn't want to. He gave Lift a 40K words novella because he just loves writing her so much. What prevents him from giving Adolin an equivalent main narrative if it isn't mere desire to write it?

All this tells me the truth is Brandon merely doesn't like writing Adolin and/or he doesn't feel the character is interesting nor worth of a decent story arc. Thus, it already went wrong. It started going wrong when Brandon said he didn't find Adolin to be an interesting character. It went further downhill when he saw fit not to address the Adolin fandom within his updates when he saw fit to address the much much smaller Renarin fandom. It fell into a deep hole when Brandon confirmed we wouldn't be getting Adolin's viewpoint until the very end of the book. It died when he said Part 4 only had 80K words and 6 viewpoints characters including Adolin, thus confirming several's readers worst fear: Brandon is removing Adolin as a viewpoint character from the story: 2-3 chapters just isn't enough. It is incredibly disappointing and slightly deceiving.

I thus doubt Brandon will write a good Adolin story, not because he isn't able to, but because he doesn't want to. I sincerely wish the author would actually drop in and say it isn't the case, but each time he was prompt, his answers were... disappointing.

Hence, creating this monster which currently is formed of readers expectations when it comes to Adolin was a serious narrative mistake. If he had no intention to allow Adolin to grow within the main narrative, if he had no intention to give him much more than a tiny arc tossed at the end of the book, then he should have been more careful when writing him in WoR. Then, he shouldn't have created those expectations: it was easy not to.

vikorr · March 20, 2017

The Stormlight Archive is really about Knights Radiant, Voidbringers / Desolations, and the story arcs that surround & impact on that.

The problem writing Adolin is that he doesn't truly fit in anywhere:

- he's not a Knight Radiant (a central ability, and a purpose)...and he better well not be. Being a KR requires one to be broken, and it would be ridiculous in the extreme for Dalinar, Jasnah, Renarin AND Adolin to all be so severely broken, and requires one to reflect an ideal (repeat, riduculous for all Kholin family to reflect ideals), and requires one to be chosen by spren (repeat, ridiculous). There are many who think it's already ridiculous that so many Kholin are KR>

- He's not Taravangian & the Diagram (a purpose)

- He's not a Son of Honour, trying to bring a desolation to return the Heralds (a purpose)

- His place in the story so far has been largely reliant on him being Dalinar's son.

What is it that Adolin brings to the table to enable him to be a major character? Don't get me wrong, I found Adolin chapters strangely readable (as in I still can't quite figure out why, as a whole, they were good reads). But within the arc of the SA, I just don't see how or why he would develop into a major character.

It would be much easier to let him slip into obscurity by the end of Oathbringer, or the book after.

Edited March 20, 2017 by vikorr

Darkness · March 20, 2017

I suddenly feel like the outlier in this thread even though I've long been assuming that I'm in the majority...

I may be risking downvotes for saying this here, but it's my opinion: I've never thought of Adolin as any more important or favorable character than say Sigzil, Teft, or Rock. I put him a little above Gaz, but nowhere near Jasnah for example.

I only realized that Adolin might have greater meaning to readers after diving deep into 17th shard. Sorry, but that's my view as a big Brandon fan, and my wife (as a more casual reader) seems to agree that he's much less important and less enjoyable to read about than say Renarin or Lift.

Please don't kill me for being honest about my opinion just trying to present my understanding of the character.

king of nowhere · March 20, 2017

10 hours ago, maxal said:

I thus doubt Brandon will write a good Adolin story, not because he isn't able to, but because he doesn't want to. I sincerely wish the author would actually drop in and say it isn't the case, but each time he was prompt, his answers were... disappointing.

do you really think brandon will write a bad story just because he can't be bothered to do better? when was the last time that brandon failed his readers?

While the law of great numbers states that eventually he will fail, it also states that on any specific matter he's very unlikely to disappoint. And his previous writing record strongly suggests that he will wriite the best story arc he can for adolin, within the limits of his part in the story, because that's what brandon does. he's just earned too much credit for me to not give him credit on this matter too.

5 hours ago, Darkness said:

Please don't kill me for being honest about my opinion just trying to present my understanding of the character.

We don't kill people for expressing their opinion politely, no matter how unpopular they may be, nor we start flame wars. welcome to the 17th shard, one of the nicest places on the internet.

Edited March 20, 2017 by king of nowhere

Rage_Fortress · March 20, 2017

19 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

It's funny how we are trying to make prediction based on storytelling conventions that are only loose guidelines at best. It reminded me of a character from "the order of the stick" (whom any reader will identify, but I don't mention her name to avoid spoilers for eventual future readers). she was good with several issues, then she had a series of breakdown, she got crazy and did some really stupid stuff, and then... she died. the author wrote that sometimes life does not give us a chance to fix our messes.

I know it's not on topic but I absolutely adore Order of the Stick. I've been reading it for the past 10 years. Also your username makes so much sense now as well. Do you have a crown around your neck?

Edited March 20, 2017 by theuntaintedchild

StormyQueen · March 20, 2017

20 hours ago, maxal said:

That's the problem... You have said it yourself: Brandon is just not interested in writing Adolin. It isn't about him not fitting within his plan: he could have adjusted the plan to make room for him. Didn't he write several "fluff" chapters which serve no other purpose than to provide harmless "fluff"? If he can incorporate those within his story, then he can give Adolin a decent story arc. If he doesn't, then it is just because he doesn't want to. He gave Lift a 40K words novella because he just loves writing her so much. What prevents him from giving Adolin an equivalent main narrative if it isn't mere desire to write it?

All this tells me the truth is Brandon merely doesn't like writing Adolin and/or he doesn't feel the character is interesting nor worth of a decent story arc. Thus, it already went wrong. It started going wrong when Brandon said he didn't find Adolin to be an interesting character. It went further downhill when he saw fit not to address the Adolin fandom within his updates when he saw fit to address the much much smaller Renarin fandom. It fell into a deep hole when Brandon confirmed we wouldn't be getting Adolin's viewpoint until the very end of the book. It died when he said Part 4 only had 80K words and 6 viewpoints characters including Adolin, thus confirming several's readers worst fear: Brandon is removing Adolin as a viewpoint character from the story: 2-3 chapters just isn't enough. It is incredibly disappointing and slightly deceiving.

I thus doubt Brandon will write a good Adolin story, not because he isn't able to, but because he doesn't want to. I sincerely wish the author would actually drop in and say it isn't the case, but each time he was prompt, his answers were... disappointing.

I personally think that this view is not what will happen.

Firstly, I would argue that Brandon is interested in the story. Sure, Adolin might not be his favourite character, but do you know who is one of his favourites. Dalinar. I would argue that we will get a fleshed out story coming for Adolin, if only because of the impact it would have on many of the major characters. It's not just Adolin either, Adolin has strong ties with a three most major characters right now (Dalinar, Kaladin and Shallan), so I would argue that we will get a solid character arc for Adolin, even if the express purpose of that is to show how his actions have impacted the other major characters.

20 hours ago, maxal said:

That's the problem... You have said it yourself: Brandon is just not interested in writing Adolin. It isn't about him not fitting within his plan: he could have adjusted the plan to make room for him. Didn't he write several "fluff" chapters which serve no other purpose than to provide harmless "fluff"? If he can incorporate those within his story, then he can give Adolin a decent story arc. If he doesn't, then it is just because he doesn't want to. He gave Lift a 40K words novella because he just loves writing her so much. What prevents him from giving Adolin an equivalent main narrative if it isn't mere desire to write it?

I think the main point that needs to be addressed here is that, despite how massive the SA books are, not everything can be fit in, as has already been pointed out, Adolin isn't a member of any of the major groups; not a KR,not part of the diagram or any of the other numberless secret societies in Roshar. His role in the story that is being told has largely been reliant on the relations he has with other major characters (Dalinar's Son, Kaladin's friend?, Shallan's fiancé) and I personally think that we will get coverage over his actions, and that he will eventually phase into mainly supporting the other major characters.

Whilst he is an engaging character to read, he doesn't have enough story significance (as a character who has been defined, I would argue, by how he supports the other characters) to go forth as a major character. Whilst I don't think he'll be immediately cut out of Oathbringer as Brandon has made a promise with his actions at the end of WoR, and he speaks all the time in his writing lectures about keeping promises to the reader. However, I think that as we get further through the series he will become less and less significant.

March 21, 2017

Alright folks, I have read each and every one of you, but since you were so numerous to partake into the conversation, I have decided to answer with one single post. Before I launch myself, I need to say a few more personal things...

First, @Darkness, welcome to the forum! And no, we do not downvote people merely for expressing a different opinion. It is within this site guidelines to avoid using downvotes to express mere dislike and/or disagreement. We prefer to discuss the issue more than discouraging new people to join in for fear of being ill-received. You have no fear to have from myself: I don't downvote people not unless they are purposefully rude, aggressive and downright improper, but this hardly ever happens. So please, feel free to state your opinion, even if you feel you are within the minority. Remember there are several lurkers which do read those threads and having a larger spectrum of opinion encourages better discussion. Obviously, you aren't going to change My Mind, but you might sway some other indecisive individuals towards your line of thought. If not, then at least, you will have stated not everyone believes whichever opinion is being discussed: I have done this often enough myself. It is sometimes worth to recall everyone opinion is never universal, especially within character related discussions.

Second, @king of nowhere, "bad" might have been an ill-chosen word. I didn't mean Brandon would purposefully write a bad story because he doesn't care to write a good one, I meant he might just not write it or only chunks of it out of disinterest. Those chunks might be very good, but they also might not be considered "enough" by those readers, such as myself, whom love the character.

For others, I feel it is time to address several points which were raised and thus I have decided to write the following:

Why Adolin is Important to the Stormlight Archive

1) His Voice is Unique within the Existing Cast

This might be the major reason why I strongly believe Adolin not only has potential, but also a definite role to play within the main narrative. Reading through everyone's posts, I gathered many felt Adolin wasn't important because he didn't fill in any predefined roles. In other words, since he isn't a Radiant nor a secret society's member, he doesn't fit and hence, he has to be written of as "less important".

I feel this analysis relies too strongly on one element of a given character: his function, his starting point. I feel it doesn't broach the character's personality and how it mingles within the remaining cast. A character isn't solely defined by his title, it is also defined by his voice and when it comes down to it, Adolin comes across as rather unique.

Where Dalinar and Kaladin are both trying to be more honorable than Honor himself, to the point of complete inaction, it is incredibly refreshing to move onto pragmatic Adolin who doesn't overthink every single one of his decisions. It is tantalizingly satisfying to read a character who just takes a decision and then follows through with it, no matter what else is thrown at him. It is even better when this same character isn't taking every single bad thing happening to him as a ploy from the universe to make his life miserable.

Where Shallan is constantly lying to herself, refusing to see things for what they are, not wanting to face truth unless she is forced to, it is terribly relaxing to move onto Adolin who just sees things as they are and isn't afraid to call a fish, a fish. Adolin doesn't deceive, doesn't lie and doesn't try to adjust his perception of reality just because it is more convenient, except when it comes to his courtships, but this is such a small plot point, it hardly matters.

Adolin is the pragmatic character, the down-to-Earth character, the things are things because they are things character: he is the one and only one of the protagonist who isn't going to lose himself into endless mental loops just justify his decision making. He said he would follow his father? He feels something is odd with the visions and he isn't comfortable with them? He tosses it away because he has already made a decision: he stick with it even if it unnerved him, even if it adds even more pressure onto him, he just keeps his word.

Thus, we need Adolin within the story and we need him to have viewpoints because he balances out the other viewpoints we are getting. This task cannot be fulfill by either Renarin nor Jasnah as both of these characters also have very internal dilemma and story arcs. Both characters are secretive, both characters aren't willingly sharing their thoughts (though for different reasons) and both characters aren't blunt. Neither of them is going to create the amount of character interaction Adolin has created. You have loved the Kaladin/Shallan banter? It would have never happened if not for Adolin, neither would have happened the Kaladin/Adolin rivalry: these two elements require on very central and very important character, Adolin.

I would also point that while our mighty Radiants were revealing themselves in all of their glory, Adolin was taking one down for the team.

2) He isn't Broken

Obviously, people would read point number one and conclude in saying all this is nice and peachy-clean, but it still doesn't explain why Adolin deserves or even needs a story arc. After all, he can fulfill his balancing role through other means which brings me to my second point.

Adolin isn't broken. He has no sad skeleton hiding within his closest. I have talked of character narrative sequences, of how an action story character typically follows the following steps:

2a) Starting Point, the character is stable

2b) The trigger, something happens which changes the character and breaks the starting point

2c) The denouement into which the character is trying to deal with the trigger

2d) The resolution where the character finds a new stability

A given character can go through several loops, he can even go through loops within loops, but what makes Adolin so interesting is the fact his loop is completely different than every single other character. In other words, Brandon has chosen to craft his story in a different manner. He writes his characters whenever they are stuck within the denouement and he uses flashbacks to have see the starting point, learn the trigger. It offer an innovative main narrative which is intriguing because we all wonder what we are going to uncover, but it also is more.. predictable as we already know the ending before we read it.

Adolin's character is completely outside the outline Brandon has chosen for his main protagonists. He has no flashbacks, but he has a starting point: we are reading it, now. Some think his character is boring, it might be because we are reading him at the start of his story, just as Kaladin in Heartstone was slightly boring, just as child Shallan probably was slightly boring: starting points aren't meant to be exciting. They are meant to be.... stable and Adolin is very stable, up until he dig a hole into a wall and step into a forgotten city, then he starts to lose it.

We have a trigger, but we have no denouement. We do not know what it may be nor what to expect: Adolin's ending isn't written within the rules of the main narrative. How amazing is it to read one, just one, character who's future is so uncertain? Yes, Adolin is likely to break down, but what happens next isn't included within any plans. We can guess characters such as Szeth and Eshonai are most likely going to become Radiants, but Adolin? We do not know. Even better we haven't seen him break, yet. How great will it be to read it happening to One Character in Real-Time and not through flashbacks?

Thus not being broken, being outside the main structure makes Adolin very important to the main narrative because only him can tell his story throughout a different narrative process. Difference is good, a story has to rely on differences to avoid becoming predictable or worst, boring.

3) He is Unpredictable

I briefly broach this point within point number 2, but I feel it should a bullet element on its own. Within the past three years, I have seen so many Adolin related discussions I have come to the conclusion of like him or hate him, he leaves very few readers indifferent. I have also glimpse so many Adolin related theories, it would be hard to list them all, but one thing is obvious: we have no idea where he is going and that makes him unique.

We could discuss until night ends and yet there wouldn't be a consensus over where his character is going. Evil? Not evil? Radiant? Not Radiant? Exile? The list is on-going and because there are so many possibilities, we can bet whichever one Brandon is going to chose will be utterly and totally unpredictable.

Within a main narrative which borrows so heavily on archetypes and traditional story telling, having one character derogating from these rules is extremely precious. Whenever we are reading Kaladin, we all know he will win, he will beat the "bad guy", he will succeed within the most visually stunning way, but when we read Adolin.... We fear he might die, we fear he might lose, we fear the sky might fall on him because not being the hero makes it so Adolin is allowed to have a bad ending (not that we wish him to have one). The stakes are always higher when he fights which makes his story arcs more unpredictable than other characters.

4) He is an Action-Oriented Character and not a Passive One

With Dalinar retiring from the battlefield and endorsing a political role, thus turning him into a fairly inactive character as opposed to an active one, the story needs Adolin more than ever. We are reading fantasy and fantasy has battles, fights, duels, it thus needs characters which are able to fight them with agility, talent and skill. Sure, we have Kaladin, but so far the balance has been tipping more heavily towards the book-worms side and less towards the fighting ones.

Adolin is the one character who can actually yield a Shardblade with talent as it was meant to, he can fight, he can lead, he can win battles and since Kaladin cannot wear all the hats at once, it makes Adolin even more important.

Conclusion

I could go on, but this is getting rather long and I am getting tired, I might add more points later on. Bottom line is Adolin is a very unique, precious and important character because what he adds to the story, no one else can add it, no one else can do it. He doesn't have to have a "function" to be important because all he needs to be is relevant, all he needs is a role no one else can fulfill but him. Turns out he does.

king of nowhere · March 21, 2017

@ maxal, I am going to add one more point: adolin is the only one in the main cast without superpowers.

I always tend to find the muggle sidekick more interesting the actual superhero. I mean, everyone can be a hero and do stuff if given crazy superpowers. It takes a really special person to do it all without any special help. Unfortunately, it brings another point where adolin's story will suffer: he cannot keep up in power level. As good as he is, stormlight is just too much of an edge. I was hoping he'd at least put up some resistance with szeth, but he came out thoroughly humiliated. Hey, come to think about it, if he becomes a cohort of a radiant (and he only has to choose) he will be able to use stormlight's passive bonuses, which should be enough to put him back into useful status. of course he could become a radiant himself, but that would defy my point

March 21, 2017

@maxal

Thorough and concise analysis of Adolins current character. It gives a good foundation for speculation and I want to thank you for that.

First of all, I agree with you. Adolin is a unique character in the Stormlight Archive and is precious because of that.

There are several factors we have to see, when we think about Adolin and his possible actions during Oathbringer:

Renarin will see the truth behind Sadeas murder. How does he react? Will he tell Dalinar about it? Try to protect Adolin?
Which brings us to Dalinar. Will he even pursue Sadeas' murder? Or is Radiant business too important?
One person, who always gets forgotten: Ialai Sadeas, the widow of Torol Sadeas. Now if Torol was a viper, then Ialai is a basilisk. She will want her revenge.
I hate to go to it again, because I don't like the love triangle-y nature of it, but: Kaladin and Shallan. He's been warming up to Kaladin, hell, I'd even call them friends by now and obviously is attracted to Shallan. We know that Adolin is normally an upright man, different from Shallan *cough*, but how will he cope with the guilt. Especially towards the main characters.
He has the writ to depose his father from Highprince-ship.

Now my, sometimes bold, speculation (combined with some parts other people have said on different sites):

Like you said in your outlier of character building in the Stormlight Archive, Adolin is currently at step 2: The Trigger. Now we just have to wait how he lets it affect him. He is an honest man and will have a problem in lying to his closest: Dalinar, Renarin, Shallan and, to an extent, Kaladin, although he is out of the picture for the beginning. As a result, he'll begin to estrange himself from them. I suspect Renarin will see what bothers his brother so, but Adolin will repulse him, because he can't bear lying to his friends and family. But I don't think Renarin will betray his brother. No that's not cowardice from Adolin, but him trying to cope with his guilt. He'll isolate himself and it will leave him vulnerable to outside influence.

Which brings me to Ialai. There is no possibility she doesn't know about Adolin's writ, because of her spies, and, eventhough she has no proof that Adolin killed Torol, she'll want to see the Kholin family - or more precise, Dalinar - punished. She'll sense Adolin's vulnerability and will try to coax him into deposing Dalinar and at the same time try to hurt by empowering his doubts of himself (His father, his betrothed, his brother and his friend all being Radiants, while... he is... just a soldier?). Now I believe Adolin a great man, but he is emotional and he will get jealous.

Now coming to his only knack in his armor of down-to-earthness; his love life. Shallan will isolate herself from him involuntarily. She has too much on her plate: Radiant business, Ghostblood dealings and her own striving to research Urithiru. Now what I think will happen in Oathbringer is that after leaving Hearthstone Kaladin will go to Kholinar and meet Jasnah. The Everstorm has already hit, so he helps Jasnah and Wit dispatching Voidbringers, finding the Kholinar Oathgate and bringing them to Urithiru along with whatever population has been saved. Shallan and her mentor are reunited and her feelings for Kaladin will flare up again, because he brought Jasnah back. One more thing about the possible Shallan & Kaladin relationshop, before I stop rambling about it: It's true that their spren are counterparts, but that doesn't have to translate to their bonding partners in the Physical Realm. I think it is even the opposite, because Pattern always tells her that she has to stop lying to herself. And Syl appears to be indifferent to Shallan. So, contrary to popular belief, I think that their spren will actually help them get together. Especially Pattern. Maybe it will even be a truth in her progression, that she has to tell.

All in all, it will be punch in the gut for Adolin.

In Conclusion:

Oathbringer will be a hard book for Adolin. Even if he manages to conceal his crime, he'll isolate himself and get jealous. I suspect Ialai will try to use this somehow to get revenge on the Kholins. I guess it will all break him hard and I think we may just see him disappear for some time.

But that is all just wild speculation and, knowing Sanderson, it will all be completely different.

Edited March 21, 2017 by SLNC

DSC01 · March 21, 2017

@maxal Well, this conversation has gone waaaaay beyond where I last left it, but too bad! I'm going back to where I was, anyway.

Here is what you're missing about the Adolin/Lift scenario: he's the squire; she's the knight. Who stands to see the most character growth there? Lift, not Adolin. Edgedancer shows her beginning on the path to maturity, but she isn't there yet. And when I say Adolin would be her squire, maybe he would really be her Squire. We don't know how Radiants' Squires work yet, but they could themselves be potential Radiants, not just semi-powered minions to throw at the Voidbringers. That kind of storyline would be ideal for the much-speculated "Adolin revives his dead Blade" plot.

That's not to say that Adolin wouldn't experience character growth through this too (especially if he ends up being Lift's Squire). The fact is that Adolin is almost certainly facing exile if it comes out that he murdered Sadeas. Ialai will want blood, but Dalinar is still strong enough to prevent it, particularly because I don't think Team Sadeas has anyone left who would be competent to duel Adolin. After that crazy duel in WoR, I don't think that anyone could be convinced to try, even if they ranked high enough.

The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that there are not a lot of possibilities (in general terms) for what will happen to Adolin: 1) No one finds out or it is covered up. 2) Ialai or another enemy finds out and is able to have Adolin killed. 3) The truth comes out in a public/semi-public way, and Adolin is exiled (I can't remember the reference, but I am fairly certain that one of the books themselves or a WoB says that the real possibilities for punishing a Shardbearer are killing them in a duel or exile).

I see enormous potential for character growth in Adolin facing the consequences of his crime. Because his story would then become very much a background one--probably told in Interludes--when we checked in on him, it would likely not be to hear about some of his adventures. It would be banter between him and Lift (where they could mention some of those adventures, just so we know that they're happening), which would tell us something about what is going on with her character development, and then it would be Adolin reflecting on his current circumstances and how he is coping with his past.

I think this really is the ideal situation, if the story is indeed at a place where the original outline called for Adolin to be dead, and he can only get tin the way of the overarching plot. If he still has more to do, but can't do it right now, then I don't mind him being reduced to cameos for a volume or two, if he's going to come back in a major way later on. Imagine this for the epilogue of book 5: The battle is temporarily won, and we move across the continent to Adolin and Lift, who have been involved in fights of their own. They have a brief exchange that teases the next arc for us ambiguously, then Adolin goes back to the exercise he was doing. It's the one where he tries to throw his Shardblade and make it hold together long enough to embed itself in the rock. He throws, it sticks and stays there for several seconds. Adolin smiles, and the Blade puffs into mist and immediately reforms in his hand. He throws it again. I'm obviously getting off on a tangent, but a scene like that would be suitably awesome that I wouldn't mind missing Adolin's presence for a little while.

Kanrei · March 21, 2017

Im late to thread but I think I have some points which are worth considering.

First - assumption that Adolin for sure will be caught. If he didnt leave knife behind, then there is nothing at crime scene which even remotely points toward Adolin. For Alethi more feasible will be that it was either assasin/s, random murder etc. Suspecting Adolin outright is like in our world if one of ministers would be killed we would instantly suspect son of other minister.
Actually only only way I can rly see for murder to be pined onto Adolin is if Renairan somehow with his Resonanse to see truth of it. But then I have hard time to believe that Renairan will denounce his brother.

Second - Adolin's reaction to murder. I see no evidence in books we read that Adolin could be crushed by guilt over Sadeas murder. He wanted to kill him for long. Whole plot to get Sadeas to duel Adolin, was for Adolin to kill Sadeas. Which he wanted to do very badly. Duels was just covers so there wouldnt be consequences. So now he killed Sadeas, he did what he wanted to do for long time. Imo instead of running around guilty, he will just think how to make sure that whole thing dont backfire and dont hurt him or his family, but no "oh I commited murder, how could I do something so bad" reaction.
And I dont think that Adolin would go ahead and risk being executed by admitting murder. He might want to prevent innocent from taking blame, but as evidence dont point towards anyone rly, whole trial can be easily dismissed, which is must smarter move then going forward and saying "ok I did it".

Third - Dalinar's reaction to murder. Again like with Adolin there are a lot posts how Dalinar will feel terrible bad, crushed, betrayed by son etc etc . Only reason Sadeas wasnt killed by Dalinar before is because Dalinar's never thought of using assassins, and House of Kholin after Tower battle was just too weak to risk open fight. From political pov, removing Sadeas was very good thing, especially if there isnt anything directly pointing towards House of Kholin (and if Adolin didnt totally loose his mind and left knife behind, then there isnt). Actually from very ruthless and practical pov, Dalinar should just remove all opposing him and king highprinces and be done with that. No one says that uniting must be by playing nice, it can be done with sword too, and based on Oathbringer prologue, thats was Galiver plan, and he was on track to become Bondsmith too.

Relations between characters in aftermath.
Adolin - Dalinar relation.
If Adolin will tell Dalinar that he killed Sadeas, I except Dalinar to just deal with situation at hand and not feel very bad about Sadeas death. I for sure dont see Dalinar openly saying that it was Adolin or letting him go to trial. There were some arguments that Dalinar is bad father for Adolin, that he didnt want him to become Blackthorn, but really, Adolin is so far away from bad sides of Blackthorn that it would take killing someone each week for year for him to get close to be as dark as Blackthorn was as his peak.
Adolin is better man then Blackthorn, and I bet that Dalinar knows this, as he knows what darkness rly was in Blackthorn. Plus he loves his son and admire him. Same like Adolin admire his father. I think it was Maxal who pointed how uncaring was Dalinar in last battle about Adolin. Imo this is very wrong assumption. Man of Adolin skill (he is probably as good fighter or better then Dalinar), full Shardbearer, is worth almost as much as whole army (Dalinar's flashbacks show how unstoppable rly full Shardbearer is). At end it took another full Shardbearer to slow Adolin down, and then Szeth to stop him. So rly, Dalinar just made good decision as leader and trusted in ability and power of his son in that last battle, and not because he was bad father.

Adolin - Renarian relation
I would be rly disapointed if Adolin was betrayed by his brother. In books we saw love and caring between them, even if Renarian discover truth, I think he will keep it for himself or first confront Adolin about it and then they will go to Dalinar and together think how to minimize damage while protecting all Kholins.

Adolin - Shallan
Well, I think Shallan wouldnt have big problem with what happened. She was one behind duel plot to kill Sadeas legally, I think now she would just think how to cover whole thing and make sure it wont hurt her and Kholins.

Adolin - Jasnah
Jasnah would just go ahead and kill Sadeas's widow, just to make sure that her family is safe.

Adolin - Elokhar
As I dont believe that Dalinar would throw Adolin under the buss, I dont think Elokhar has strong enough position to rly matter. Atm he is in position and alive thanks to Dalinar, I doubt he will risk himself and whole House of Kholin to go against rest of family.

Adolin - Kaladin
Thats tricky. I dont think Kaladin would aprove, but I dont think he would be sad that Sadeas who used him and other bridgeman as baits is dead.
But from all characters Kaladin might be most conflicted if he learned truth.
I think that he just wont be close enough to know about whole thing till its over.
BTW if someone thinks that Kaladin doesnt matter, you are forgeting about bridgemen and Bridge 4 especially. Someone who has loyalty of highly skilled military force always matter, and now that force is getting enhanced with Stormlight.
BTW2 I kinda sure that Bridge 4 (which basicaly mean bridgemen) will be behind Adolin and support him, so I dont see someone executing Adolin without opposition. They let throw Kaladin into prison only because of his own influence over them and fact that everyone knew it was temporary.
I doubt they will let good person and leader like Adolin with whom they were together fighting to be executed.

Anyway I dont see how Kholins would be broken over killing Sadeas when all of them wanted him dead anyway, especially after they survived all problems thrown at them in WoK and WoR.

How I see consequences - Sadeas's widow will blame House of Kholin, but with no evidence she wont be able pursue it vie legal system, so she will do what she do the best.
She will start secret war, employing spies and assassins against Kholins. We might see fighting between highprinces, from which I think Dalinar will emerge victorious and houses opposing him will be either destroyed or subdued. One way or another Dalinar need to unite Alethi, he cant just let other Highprinces to try hurt him like it was in past and he can allow any undermining his or king so I doubt he will let there be trial or open resistance against him or king.

Edited March 21, 2017 by Kanrei

DSC01 · March 21, 2017

Well, here's the thing--Adolin probably is going to get away with it for a while. We've all argued back and forth about whether there will be evidence there to point to him, but I think the bottom line is that, while we don't presently know, it isn't at all unlikely that Adolin managed to cover it up well enough to avoid immediate suspicion.

The question is what happens when it gets pinned on someone else. Jasnah hired assassins before. Maybe Ialai will try to pin it on her. Or maybe someone else altogether--say, some random guy from Bridge 4--will be blamed. You could build a plausible case for a former slave to want to murder Sadeas to protect their benefactor. Whatever happens, Ialai will not rest until someone pays, and Adolin won't let someone else take the fall for him, however his family and other allies react.

Sadeas's death is too major to just get swept under the rug. That may be what happens for most of Oathbringer, but regardless, such a situation cannot last. If it comes out that Adolin was the killer--and that seems inevitable--then the Kholins will have no choice but to allow his punishment. Hence, my conviction that Adolin is very likely headed for exile.

March 22, 2017

A lot of great discussion once more today. It might take time to answer to everyone in full details.

@king of nowhere: Yes, I have considered this point and whether or not to add it to the list. I feel it is too strongly linked to Adolin's current status, his starting point which is to be powerless. His future status might be entirely else and I am among those who firmly believe his most interesting character arc would be to unlock his dead-Blade which would make him a Radiant. I would however point out this is a long-term story arc and not a short-term. In other words, Adolin's denouement should be him being powerless, him trying to figure where he fits and it is only when he finds it, he gets resolution. I certainly believe "finding it" is likely to be linked to "him reviving his Blade" or maybe this will be tossed into another character arc, but Adolin seems to be going onto a slow going long term arc as opposed to several quick ones such as Kaladin.

@SLNC: Yes, this analysis is based on Adolin's current status,his starting point. I put the emphasis over this fact to expose how having readers think he is unimportant and/or boring is merely linked to Adolin not having gone through his development yet. It is also why I mentioned how probably equally unimportant and/or uninteresting Kaladin/Shallan probably were prior to their breaking point. We find it interesting because we know where they end, but without this knowledge, Shallan's story arc would have read very... differently.

To answer your questions:

1) Renarin has never been anything but very supportive of this older brother, protective even. It is Renarin who stands still next to Adolin trying to calm him down when the anger rises, it is Renarin who jumps into the arena because Adolin is being hit on and it too disoriented to fend for himself, it is Renarin who is always reassuring with Adolin, always trying to quell down his emotions, so yes while Renarin might not see it nor even admit it, he is being just as protective towards Adolin as Adolin is towards him. I thus do not buy one second he would purposefully throw his brother under the bus, so to speak. He would never betray Adolin, of this I am convinced. It would be terribly out of character for him to do so, but what would be consistent with the Renarin we have so far seen is to quiz his brother, to ask him and to demand he does not lie.

It might very well be the first individual Adolin will confess to is Renarin.

2) Yes, Dalinar will pursue Sadeas's murder. Radiant business might be important, but the unification of Alethkar is more crucial. He also cannot allow the murder of a Highprince to go unpunished if he is to built a better world. Also, we must not under-play the fact Dalinar does have an emotional link with Sadeas and while he might have been ready to see him die, I doubt he is ready to face him being murdered. I would point out here murder and assassination aren't within the Alethi ways. Dalinar not "thinking about hiring assassins" is not a flaw, it is considered dishonorable to rely on assassins. Alethi will confront their foes, they will duel them, they will not send in assassins. Thus, Dalinar is certainly not going to approve even more so once he finds out Adolin did it.

Murdering an opponent carries a negative stigma within the Alethi society: this was confirmed by a WoB.

3) Ialai will want revenge and once the word is out Adolin did it, we can expect retaliation. Ideas I have had imply Ialai perhaps marrying Amaram, thus forming the new power couple at the head of the Amaram's princedom and/or sending assassins for Adolin which could lead to interesting scenes as he fights for his life.

4) I have previously said Adolin was very resilient when it comes to several issues within his young life, but he does have a weakness. Perception. Image. Perfection. How others view him is crucial to him and he seems to always try to please, to be whichever individual he feels other wishes to see. We see it when he courts, how he adjusts himself to be the man he believes the young woman wants him to be, we see it in his obedient nature, in his desire to always follow his father's orders and, more importantly, we see it when he wonders about who he is.

What happens when everything which Adolin has used to define himself is removed from him? He loses himself mostly because he relies on others for his sense of self-worth to be strong: as long as others see him as worthy, he feels worthy. Hence, when Adolin directly goes against his father's orders/rules, when he does an action which Alethi society would frown upon, when he breaks the law, I do think he will feel guilty. Guilty also is one of Adolin's primary reaction after murdering Sadeas.

What has he done?

There will be guilt, there will be a loss of self-worth and Adolin will fight to figure out where he now stands.

5) I doubt the king's writ will ever come into play as I doubt Adolin would ever use it. Back in WoK, even when he was convinced his father was senile and delusional, he refused to consider the possibility his father might abduct in his favor. It thus seems incredibly unlikely Adolin would think or even allow himself to be manipulated into using it. To which end? How would he ever rationalized it? Dalinar isn't the one who killed a Highprince, Dalinar isn't the one who broke the law, Dalinar isn't in the wrong: Adolin is. He would never think his father being a Radiant is a strong enough reason to use it, especially not to put him in his place, him, the one who murdered a rival.

I thus think it highly unlikely Adolin would ever use the writ. Someone else might though, but not Adolin.

@DSC01: Nice speculation, but it isn't one I can support as it goes directly against my claim Adolin's presence is required within the main narrative. I firmly believe the story is stronger with him in it. His voice is unique, refreshing, he fulfills a roles no one else can overtake, he enters in relation with the other characters, hence his presence is not only valuable, but desirable.

In your speculation, you suggest to remove Adolin from the main narrative, to put him into the interlude, even if it means losing him for a book or two. You thus suggest to leave the main narrative within the sole hands of Kaladin/Dalinar/Shallan/Jasnah and potentially Renarin.

I disagree this is a good idea and here is why. What you suggest sounds exactly like WoK Prime, the first draft Brandon wrote which didn't work out. Brandon has often commented on why he felt he had to adjust the story. To make it short, there were too many main protagonists (those five I mentioned above) and each one had a very internal progression, with little interaction with other characters. Taken individually, each had an interesting story to tell, but grouped together, it was tedious, it was inactive, passive and downright boring (words of the author not mine). The story suffered from relying exclusively on five deeply introspective non-sharing characters. In order to fix the problem, Brandon removed Jasnah and Renarin, to avoid the back and forth in between too many separate story arcs.

It wasn't enough.

He had to add Adolin to make it work. He needed Adolin in order to turn an over abundance of internal dilemmas into external ones. He needed him to voice it out, to speak up, to steer it and, later on in WoR, to create the much needed connection in between all characters. Try to imagine how WoR would have gone down without Adolin. It is easy to argue his actions aren't required: someone else could have championed for Dalinar, someone else could have won the Plateau fight, but the fact it was Adolin made the story better. It raised the stakes, it increased readers emotional attachment to the story (Adolin's story arc in WoR has been very well received within the readers), it increased the pressure felt (didn't we all think Adolin would actually die) and, perhaps even more importantly, he allowed for characters to talk to each other. Without Adolin, nobody is talking with nobody. Without Adolin, nobody is standing up to Dalinar because he will oppose himself, if he is utterly convinced he is right (which doesn't happen very often, but when it does, it does). Without Adolin, nobody is calling Elhokar out for his crap, nobody is bold enough to ignore his idiotic decree.

Without Adolin, we loose all of that and, I may only speak for myself, but I firmly believe the character adds a lot more to the story than he requires which is exactly what Brandon once said about him.

There is also the fact Brandon chose a narrative structure, for his main protagonists, which relies on them having hidden secrets within their part. I understand what he is trying to accomplish, but to make it work, he had to choose ten introspective, secretive to various degrees and with a strong tendencies towards internal monologues characters. They might be distinctive characters with distinctive personalities and distinctive progression, they remain characters which aren't prone to share, to dialogue and to expose the truths above themselves. Having a few characters such as those is interesting, it adds to the mystery, it activates the curiosity of readers, but have only such characters and the story, once again, clogs down or feels heavy to read, slow going. This makes Adolin ever more precious within this narrative because he is exactly the opposite. He isn't secretive so whatever happens to him, we can be sure it won't be about him dwindling endlessly about what to do or refusing to talk long enough for readers to want to throw the book onto the wall.

This isn't Adolin and we can't lose him within this story. He might not have a "function" (yet), but he has a purpose and a role to play.

@Kanrei: Here are my comments on your suggestions.

1) I personally do not assume Adolin will be caught. I assume he might be, but I believe he will confess before the investigation goes far enough to either accuse someone else and/or find evidence it might be him. One of Adolin most prominent personality traits is his bluntness and his honesty: he isn't secretive, he does't keep secret, worst he can. Adolin is an open-book of raw emotions, he doesn't even need to say a word for someone like Renarin to instinctively know something is wrong with his brother. The kid doesn't even need Radiant powers to see it: he knows Adolin, he knows when he is lying and when he isn't.

I thus do not think the murder will kept a secret nor do I think we will read Adolin having his dirty secret. This would be in direct contradiction of how his character has been played so far. Besides, we already have a full cast of secretive characters: there is no need to add Adolin to the need. We need him as the straight-forward heart on the sleeve protagonist.

2) I disagree with your statement. The evidence within the books points directly towards Adolin feeling guilty. A lot of readers are focusing over the fact Adolin's immediate reaction, after murdering Sadeas, was to hide the evidence, not enough are focusing on his mental thought process. Was he pleased with himself? Was he gloating? Was he happy? No. He was terrified, horrified and stunned. Completely stunned which by itself is enough to explain why he would carelessly go through the process of hiding the evidence. He wasn't owning the murder: he was this kid who broke down mommy's favorite vase and proceeds to hide the broken piece because he doesn't want to face the guilt of the done deed. He is trying to make it disappear which is perfectly consistent with the human typical behavior when faced with emotionally compromising hardships.

What are those step?

I) Shock. This is Adolin stunned. Have I killed a Highprince?

II) Denial. This is the phase where the individual will try to deny the event ever happens. This is illustrated with Adolin hiding the evidence.

II)I Anger. This is the phase where the individual turns angry. Angry at the world for having thrown this hardship at him, angry at himself for his behavior, just plain anger.

IV) Sadness. This is the phase where the individual finally feels sadness over how things have turned out.

V) Resignation/Acceptation. This is the phase where the individual accepts the event has happened. He stops fighting.

VI) Reconstruction. This is when the individual starts to built, again.

Right now, Adolin is in phase II, but we can expect him to go through all phases: anger, sadness, resignation and reconstruction which should be how his character ends within the next book, unless Brandon goes with a longer term cycle with him.

3) Dalinar is hardly going to celebrate his son having gone against not only his own rules, but the Alethi law. Also, Brandon has stated assassination wasn't the Alethi way: they consider it dishonorable and weak, thus Dalinar would never resort to such actions nor would he approve. The emotional cocktail which is likely to brew within Dalinar is hard to predict, but I doubt he will be pleased, happy and/or not care about it.

On character relationships, I have comments on the Dalinar/Adolin one.

There is evidence Dalinar has not been a fair father, not a bad one, but unfair nonetheless. This is supported by WoB where it has been explained Dalinar was harder on Adolin than he was on others and while he does have a reason, it remains a flaw within his character. The author has also stated Renarin got most of the attention when they were growing up which does give credence to my claims wanting Dalinar to demand much more from Adolin than he is willing to give. The examples I have given were moments where Dalinar asks, but never gives back and there lies, IMHO, the problem.

Feeling left out within his family, feeling he doesn't matter, feeling he isn't good enough for attention, feeling he doesn't deserve it if he fails at being perfect, these are among Adolin's triggers. This is the source of his former jealousy and Dalinar stands at the center of it.

I have no comments to make onto the other character relationship as this post is getting quite long, but I would say my impression are you are assuming nobody would care much about the murder nor will it matter in any significant manner. It is a position, you aren't alone with it, but I feel it is very anti-climatic. I understand you would perhaps prefer if the story focused on other aspects, but I think it would be a mistake not to explore this one. Still, you might be please by what will follow.

Obviously, you perhaps are wondering what do I suggest in terms of story arc or what do I predict. Well, I have tried to use up all available clues in order to figure out what seemed to me as the most likely path. What are the clues?

1) Adolin doesn't have viewpoints until the end of the book and while the author has stated his story arc was about as big as in other books, I have had serious doubts. Let's assume for now I am fretting over nothing and Adolin roughly have the same page time as within WoR which implies a very condensed story.

2) Adolin intentionally ditches his Kholin uniform.

3) Adolin's action aren't immoral and he might get a defense for them.

My thoughts are thus Adolin will confess and/or he will be find out very early within the next book. It won't linger. We won't spend endless pages having our characters wonder who murdered Sadeas nor will there be a lengthy (and potentially boring) investigation. Oathbringer will kick in right into the deep of it and regardless of Dalinar's reaction, the worst consequences will be those Adolin will impose on himself.

What might those be?

When faced with the reality for his family now being Radiants while knowing he has broken Dalinar's trust, Adolin will take it hard. As I said previously, what are his trigger buttons? Is it envy, desire to increase his power level? Of course not, Adolin never expressed such ambitions. What is it then? Regard. Perception. Attention. Love. He wants others to like him, he wants to feel worthy of his father's attentions. Can he be jealous? Of course he can, but not of super-powers, of attention, because Brandon said so. Hence, what will grate Adolin is seeing his father move closer to his brother, to see them develop a new kinship, to see Dalinar devotes most of his attention on Renarin just as when they were little... This, this, this will get to him. He'd feel unworthy.

Unworthy of his name, Kholin and thus, he will remove his uniform because "As long as you are of my house, you will wear my colors". It might go as far as having Adolin forsake every one of his father's rules, rules about drinking. He will sink. And this story might be the only story I can think of which will actually work better if seen from Dalinar's eyes. In WoK, we had Adolin wonder what he needed to do, as a son, when his father was going mad. In Oathbringer, we might get to read what a father might do when a son sinks into darkness. What to say/do to stop the spiraling? This would be quite an interesting read and something older readers might relate to as some of us do have children.

In the end, I doubt there will be exile for all of the reasons I mentioned, but I do think Adolin will go through a rebellious phase (the anger), followed by sadness. Then, I suspect there might be another trigger, something which will have Adolin pick up his uniform again, join the group again and find himself again, ready for new beginnings.

+Wax · March 22, 2017

I think the other side story might be Shallan saying no to Adolin for Kaladin. So, it might be all sorts of trouble for Adolin for him to break into something -- KR OR SOMETHING ELSE.

Steeldancer · March 22, 2017

Eh I think he's going to die dramatically. I love adolin... but he's

WORDS OF RADIANCE SPOILERS - Adolin's Consequences in "Oathbringer"

Recommended Posts

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Popular Posts

1stBondsmith

marsoupial

Extesian

Guest

Guest

Guest

WhiteLeeopard she/her

Guest

Guest

Darkness he/him

Rage_Fortress he/him

StormyQueen she/her

Guest

Guest

DSC01 he/him

DSC01 he/him

Guest

+Wax he/him

Steeldancer he/him

Recently Browsing 0 members