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What do the first two Ideals do?


Mason Wheeler

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We know that Radiants get power by "speaking the words".  But the way it works seems pretty inconsistent.

Kaladin clearly had Syl bonded to him, and was able to draw in Stormlight, before speaking even the First Ideal.  He was able to instinctively use Surgebinding to deflect arrows long before speaking the Second, and after speaking the Second Ideal, he didn't have any noticeable improvement in his Surgebinding abilities; he still had to spend a bunch of time in Words of Radiance learning how to use his powers.

Lift spoke the First Ideal before her flashback started, and (in her admittedly unreliable mind at least) doing so was necessary to bond her "voidbringer."  She was pretty adept at manipulating both friction and Growth before she ever spoke the second.

Dalinar was unable to even bond a spren at all before speaking both of the first two Ideals.

The one thing that seems completely consistent so far (except in Dalinar's case, because grumpyspren) is that you get your Blade with the Third Ideal.  But what do the first two do?

Edited by Mason Wheeler
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The KR orders don't progress through their ideals at the same rate. So what one order gets at the second ideal, another might get at a later one. For instance, Lightweavers get the shardblade really early on like Edgedancers. Also, even if they don't grant new abilities, a higher ideal will grant greater control over surgebinding and stormlight efficiency.

Edited by Spoolofwhool
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I'm not sure we have ideal examples upon which to compare.  Kaladin was afraid of his powers and thus didn't really start working on them until later, however he did show some skills prior to speaking the second ideal. 

That said, I feel like the oaths enable a more efficient use of stormlight.  They may make the skills work better too, but I feel as though that's probably secondary to the stormlight use.  I also think that a person begins having powers immediately following the spren initiating the bonding process, prior to any oaths ( I believe this would be cosmere consistent ).

Oh, and Dalinar had been using stormlight for an undetermined amount of time given how it felt familiar to him and how easily he was able to learn to use it.

Edited by grasshoppa
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37 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

For instance, Lightweavers get the shardblade really early on like Edgedancers.

Wait, what? Lift got her Shardblade at Third Ideal - the same as Kaladin, a Windrunner. IIRC at the end of WoR Shallan is one step ahead of Kaladin and she spoke a Truth then. So earlier she was at Third Ideal level (First Oath + two Truths) and using Shardblade.

Of course, Shallan is a massively non-standard issue. But so far we have consistently seen Surgebinders gain Shardblade with Third Ideal.

Anyway, Kaladin was able to inhale Stormlight and used Reverse and Full Lashings before speaking even First Oath. Dalinar was also able to inhale Stormlight before end of WoR and his talk with Stormfather... there is some debate going on about when he spoke the First but I believe he swore both First and Second in Urithiru.

Edited by Oversleep
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Shallan had her shardblade waaaaaay back in childhood. Not sure how many "ideals" she had spoken back then. But wasn't there a WoB that said lightweavers basically have the first ideal only, and then they power-up by speaking truths? ... Upon searching, I can't find that specifically. Closest I found was "Shallan's oaths are very individualized truths". Also, the last quote has to do with 3rd oath powers.

WoBs that I could find around the Shallan/childhood/ideal situation:

Interview: Mar 13th, 2014

Kythis

Q: How did Pattern actually become a Shardblade even though he hadn't been fully pulled into the Physical Realm?

Brandon Sanderson

A: He was pulled into the Physical Realm before, when Shallan was younger. And she almost broke her bond.

Interview: Mar 18th, 2014

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Not completely sure on this one: He said that at one point Shallan may have said all the oaths for her order (or may have been capable of saying all of the oaths by the end of the book) but has since regressed due to "memory loss/repression." [...] Brandon also clarified that the oaths, with the exception of the first ideal, are not restricted to specific words. Rather, a specific idea must be conveyed for the oath to be accepted.

Interview: Mar 21st, 2014

Question

When does a person become a Surgebinder? Because Kaladin talks about when he was a child, about it being a familiar feeling, and Shallan obviously was younger. Or is it when they speak the Words?

Brandon Sanderson

The bond starts forming before the words are spoken, but if the words are never spoken that bond will eventually evaporate and get broken. But the bond will start forming before. Just like an emotion attracts a spren, acting in the way that the spren you would eventually bond will start drawing them toward you and that will start to create that bond.

Blightsong

Were the oaths of the Knights radiant consciously chosen, or did they happen naturally.

Brandon Sanderson

*apprehension*. This is one of those vague ones in that yes and no. They are a natural outgrowth of the spren, but the spren are a natural outgrowth of human's perception of natural forces, but the spren are sentient, so I would say it's a little more by instinct than not. For example to Knights Radiant in the same order might speak the words differently, but the concept is the same. You will see this happen in a future book, where a Windrunner will speak the oaths. It's a slightly different take on the same concept. Some are moreso, like Shallan's oaths are very individualized truths, so.

Question

Ok. Do you have to have done the third oath before you can convert your spren into a Blade?

Brandon Sanderson

Uh, in most orders, yes.

Question

What about Shallan then? Did she do it, cause she was a kid when she first-

Brandon Sanderson

Um… You will find out more.

 

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3 minutes ago, Darkness said:

But wasn't there a WoB that said lightweavers basically have the first ideal only, and then they power-up by speaking truths?

That's how their Spren operate, using truths. But as Brandon has put her "a level above" Kaladin at the end of WoR, it is assumed that they have 4 truths, rather than 4 Oaths. Another thing that is based on the first 2 that you linked in the spoiler tab, Shallan made it to whatever point was needed for her to use a Sprenblade. The horror/shame or other strong emotion of what happened back then is what made her regress, basically having her pushing away from the bond and what happened from it. She had to do her truths again to reinforce the bond, just as Kaladin apparently did before reviving Syl.

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1 hour ago, Oversleep said:

Wait, what? Lift got her Shardblade at Third Ideal - the same as Kaladin, a Windrunner. IIRC at the end of WoR Shallan is one step ahead of Kaladin and she spoke a Truth then. So earlier she was at Third Ideal level (First Oath + two Truths) and using Shardblade.

I thought Lift was at her second ideal and Shallan basically got her shardblade from the start when she was a kid. Anyhow, that WoB shows me to be wrong, so that doesn't really matter.

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I would also argue about Lifts adeptness concerning her Surges. Like Kaladin she had access c to them right away, but we see that there are subtle nuances to the Surgebinding. The both of them crash helplessly despite their "godlike" power:lol:

My point is, neither even as of EdgeDancer are epitomes of their Surges yet.

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