The Nightwatcher and Parshmen [Oathbringer Prologue Spoilers]

[Blightsong he/him]

In the recent Oathbringer prologue reading we learned that Gavilar believes that some kind of acient, powerful spren was used to turn the Parshendi into Parshmen. A lot some people believe this spren to be an Adonalsium spren (and that this Adonalsium spren is the third bondsmith spren), but I have a different theory.

A quote directly relating to how a Bondsmith defeated the Voidbringers is as follows.

"So Melishi retired to his tent, and resolved to destroy the Voidbringers upon the next day, but that night did present a different stratagem, related to the unique abilities of the Bondsmiths; and being hurried, he could make no specific account of his process; it was related to the very nature of the Herald and their divine duties, an attribute the Bondsmiths alone could address."

This suggests that a Bondsmith, Melishi, is responsible for the creation of Parshmen.

It has long been hinted at and theorized that the Nightwatcher is the second Bondsmith spren, and this is supported by a recent interview when Brandon seemed to believe that the fandom knew who the second Bondsmith spren is.

It struck me that the Nightwatcher has displayed the ability to change beings and their spiritual or cognitive aspects. I think that it would make sense that Bondsmith bonded to the Nightwatcher would be able to 'curse' the Parshendi into the state they are in now, or at least persuade the Nightwatcher herself to do so.

What are your guy's thoughts on this new info?

Edited February 7, 2017 by Blightsong

[Pagerunner he/him]

There's a key difference in what you've laid out and what the prologue says. It's not that an ancient spren was used to trap the parshmen; it's that by trapping an ancient spren, the parshmen were unable to transform as they used to. It's not an addition, Listeners + Spren's Actions = Parshmen. It's a subtraction, Listeners - The Ancient Spren = Parshmen.

I considered whether Nightwatcher was the spren Gavilar referred to and spoke briefly about her over in the prologue response thread, but ultimately I don't think it can be her. Gavilar said that the Ancient Spren was captured. The vast bulk of the parshmen are still in slaveform at the end of WoR, so that implies that the Ancient Spren is still captive somewhere. Nightwatcher is free, so that's why I ruled her out. Same for Stormfather; if he was responsible for the transformation, then there shouldn't be parshmen at the time of WoK and WoR.

Furthermore, the little we know of Roshar's ancient past suggests that the Listeners, like the spren and the Highstorms, predate the arrival of Honor and Cultivation, and later Odium, in the Rosharan system. That was the major impetus behind my suggestion that the Ancient Spren was of Adonalsium, since the Listeners would need spren to interact with before Adonalsium was Shattered.

I do agree that the quote you reference is the same event, but I have a slightly different take on it. I think that Melishi (or Ishar, as I suspect) had the Bondsmith who was bonded to the Ancient Spren trap his own spren somehow to lock the parshmen into slaveform.

[Blightsong he/him]

40 minutes ago, Pagerunner said:

There's a key difference in what you've laid out and what the prologue says. It's not that an ancient spren was used to trap the parshmen; it's that by trapping an ancient spren, the parshmen were unable to transform as they used to. It's not an addition, Listeners + Spren's Actions = Parshmen. It's a subtraction, Listeners - The Ancient Spren = Parshmen.

I considered whether Nightwatcher was the spren Gavilar referred to and spoke briefly about her over in the prologue response thread, but ultimately I don't think it can be her. Gavilar said that the Ancient Spren was captured. The vast bulk of the parshmen are still in slaveform at the end of WoR, so that implies that the Ancient Spren is still captive somewhere. Nightwatcher is free, so that's why I ruled her out. Same for Stormfather; if he was responsible for the transformation, then there shouldn't be parshmen at the time of WoK and WoR.

Furthermore, the little we know of Roshar's ancient past suggests that the Listeners, like the spren and the Highstorms, predate the arrival of Honor and Cultivation, and later Odium, in the Rosharan system. That was the major impetus behind my suggestion that the Ancient Spren was of Adonalsium, since the Listeners would need spren to interact with before Adonalsium was Shattered.

I do agree that the quote you reference is the same event, but I have a slightly different take on it. I think that Melishi (or Ishar, as I suspect) had the Bondsmith who was bonded to the Ancient Spren trap his own spren somehow to lock the parshmen into slaveform.

Ahhh, I'll have to listen to the recording again then report back. Thanks for catching me on that.

[Pagerunner he/him]

8 minutes ago, Blightsong said:

Ahhh, I'll have to listen to the recording again then report back. Thanks for catching me on that.

Just checking, have you seen this transcription? Much better than a recording for hammering out details.

[Blightsong he/him]

57 minutes ago, Pagerunner said:

Just checking, have you seen this transcription? Much better than a recording for hammering out details.

I'm very glad I made this post and was corrected, the stuff I had misinterpreted/heard on the recording is very interesting. The most relevant quote I found is as follows:

"The parshmen were like you once. We stopped their ability  [to enter the?]  transformation somehow by capturing a spren. A very ancient, very important spren.” He looked to her, his eyes alight. “I’ve seen how I can reverse it.  A new storm that will bring the Heralds out of hiding. A new war.”

There are a couple interpretations of what Gavilar is saying here that I can see. First, he believes an ancient Spren being captured robbed the parshmen of their forms and the rhythms, and that he believes starting a desolation will return them the ability to transform. Second, what he said can be read as him believing that he can reverse the imprisonment of this ancient Spren.

The first interpretations leads us to believe that there is knowledge Gavilar has that we do not yet. This is supported by Hoid thinking that Gavilar was relatively Cosmere aware. I think the theory that this ancient Spren is some kind of Adonalsium is pretty plausible under this interpretation.

The second interpretation would mean that Gavilar probably believes that Odium is the ancient trapped Spren, and that his imprisonment is what is keeping the Parshmen from holding forms. This is supported by the quote in my first post saying that whatever the Bondsmith that made the Parshmen had to do with the nature of the Heralds and their duties. It also makes sense that the only Listeners that aren't Parshmen are ones that abandoned Odium and his influence.

While neither interpretation really jives with my original theory I do think I still made some interesting points, it's just much more of a crackpot now.

What do you guys think Gavilar meant?

[Andy92]

This part of the prologue:

"The parshmen were like you once. We stopped their ability  [to enter the?]  transformation somehow by capturing a spren..."

Reminds me a bit of...

Spoiler

Elantris. The Elantrians were cursed with the Hoed because they entered a transformation phase without a way out of it. I wonder if there is some similar process going on at Roshar like there was on Sel? Could be two completely different things, but this is what it reminds me of. 

 

[dionysus]

Sorry, posted in wrong thread.

Edited February 7, 2017 by dionysus

[Jofwu he/him]

49 minutes ago, Blightsong said:

The second interpretation would mean that Gavilar probably believes that Odium is the ancient trapped Spren, and that his imprisonment is what is keeping the Parshmen from holding forms.

Now that is an interesting idea. It totally makes sense that Gavilar would think Odium is a "very ancient, very important" spren. That's precisely what a not-100%-Cosmere-aware Rosharan would call a Shard.

If your WoR epigraph is about Melishi coming up with a way to turn Voidbringers into Parshmen, then I'm not sure if it fits.Gavilar also implies that his ancestors were responsible for capturing this spren. I'm under the impression that Odium's capture was pretty much all Honor's doing.

But an interesting idea anyways...

 

Edited February 7, 2017 by jofwu

[Blightsong he/him]

6 minutes ago, jofwu said:

Now that is an interesting idea. It totally makes sense that Gavilar would think Odium is a "very ancient, very important" spren. That's precisely what a not-100%-Cosmere-aware Rosharan would call a Shard.

If your WoR epigraph is about Melishi coming up with a way to turn Voidbringers into Parshmen, then I'm not sure if it fits.Gavilar also implies that his ancestors were responsible for capturing this spren. I'm under the impression that Odium's capture was pretty much all Honor's doing.

But an interesting idea anyways...

 

The quote about the Melishi messing with the nature of the heralds could be a lot less literal than may be thought. For all we know, the author believed that Connection, or the spiritual realm itself was something is "related to the Heralds and their divine duties".

[Jofwu he/him]

1 minute ago, Blightsong said:

The quote about the Melishi messing with the nature of the heralds could be a lot less literal than may be thought. For all we know, the author believed that Connection, or the spiritual realm itself was something is "related to the Heralds and their divine duties".

No, I'm just referring to the simple fact that he "presented the stratagem" by which the Voidbringers could be neutralized.

I guess that could be a matter of like... Honor or the Heralds speaking to him and saying, "Hey, I've got this other plan. You don't have to kill them." And then they just all sort of sat back and watched, or assisted somehow.

But tied together with Gavilar's assertion about his ancestors capturing this spren, it sounds to me more like Melishi came up with this plan and executed it himself (perhaps with the other bondsmiths, and perhaps assisted by other Radiants in some way).

Lots of assumptions in all of that, but it just seems like the most likely interpretation to me.

[+Extesian he/him]

While some of the original post changes with the transcription, I really like how you've tied in the Melishi point @Blightsong. This would make a lot of sense as an idea to avoid destroying the Parshendi.

That said the way Gavilar describes trapping the ancient spren is comparing it to a Fabrial, where the purpose isn't simply to trap a spren, it's too use the trapped spren's powers. So I feel it's unlikely to be the trapping of Odium but instead the trapping of a spren that can prevent voidbinding. It was then used like a fabrial on the Parshendi which removed their ability to voidbind (or indeed bind normal spren in the way they presumably did from the time of Adonalsium). I feel like it's the spren equivalent of aluminium in a very rough way. I still lean towards an Adonalsium spren myself but that's pure speculation.

[Blightsong he/him]

1 hour ago, jofwu said:

No, I'm just referring to the simple fact that he "presented the stratagem" by which the Voidbringers could be neutralized.

I guess that could be a matter of like... Honor or the Heralds speaking to him and saying, "Hey, I've got this other plan. You don't have to kill them." And then they just all sort of sat back and watched, or assisted somehow.

But tied together with Gavilar's assertion about his ancestors capturing this spren, it sounds to me more like Melishi came up with this plan and executed it himself (perhaps with the other bondsmiths, and perhaps assisted by other Radiants in some way).

Lots of assumptions in all of that, but it just seems like the most likely interpretation to me.

I think there are probably parallels to a Shard being trapped on a planet and a Spren being trapped in a gem, but you make a good point.