Compounding with only Allomancy [BoM spoilers]

[+robardin he/him]

Compounding is burning a Feruchemical metalmind, thus gaining 10x of the stored Feruchemical attribute.

Because metalminds are keyed to the Feruchemist's identity, this has classically only been doable by a Fullborn like TLR, a hemalurgically enhanced specimen like Marsh, or a Twinborn as of Era 2 like Miles Dagouter.

But as of The Bands of Mourning, we see it's possible to create "blank" metalminds that anyone can use. Wayne was amazed to be able to use the goldmind recovered from Kelesina, for example (though he had to be told it was a goldmind to realize it). So would an Augur, a gold Misting, have been able to burn it, and to what effect?

I think he'd get a massive burst of health (which he couldn't manage by siphoning off the excess into another goldmind...). In Mistborn, Vin tries to burn one of Sazed's pewtermind earrings, and is able to sense the attributes stored in it, but is unable to access it due to the identity keying:

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“I… can feel the power, Saze. It’s faint—far beyond my grasp—but I swear that there’s another reserve within me, one that only appears when I’m burning your metal.”

Sazed frowned. “It’s faint, you say? Like… you can see a shadow of the reserve, but can’t access the power itself?”

Vin nodded. “How do you know?”

“That’s what it feels like when you try to use another Feruchemist’s metals, Mistress,” Sazed said, sighing. “I should have suspected this would be the result. You cannot access the power because it does not belong to you.”

“Oh,” Vin said.

“Do not be too disappointed, Mistress. If Allomancers could steal strength from my people, it would already be known. It was a clever thought, however.”

So if an Allomancer would sense but not access the Feruchemical power in a normal metalmind, it stands to reason she'd sense AND access the power in an unkeyed metalmind, no?

 

[Pagerunner he/him]

Not necessarily. (And not only because it would make Compounding medallions easy to create and totally break physics on Scadrial.) Compounding is a 'hack,' and it's possible that the Identity isn't just a restriction (you can't Compound with other peoples' Identity) but a positive requirement (you can only Compound with your own Identity). I view it like this: each magic has two halves, the power source, and the application. Compounding is linking Allomancy's power source to Feruchemy's application. However, to make that link, I think it's likely that the Identity keyed to both powers needs to be the same. (i.e., I have all this Allomantic power ready to go, and it tracks along Identity to find two different routes of application: Allomancy, or Feruchemy. If Feruchemy has a blank identity, the Allomancy might not know what to look for.)

[+hwiles He/Him]

I'm afraid I have to agree with @Pagerunner for the time being.  Cool as it would be to be able to compound without being a twinborn, our current understanding of compounding is that it is an inadvertent side-effect of blending two distinct forms of Investiture that utilize the same metals.  As I understand it, an unkeyed goldmind can still only be tapped by a bloodmaker, so a gold misting with no feruchemic abilities in their spirit web probably wouldn't be able to make use of it.  They'd be able to tell it was Invested for sure, there's always some manner of interference when two forms of Investiture collide, similar to why metalminds are more difficult to steelpush against if they're filled.

As for the Southern Scadrians medallions, it might be possible for a gold misting to burn one that granted gold feruchemy to gain compounding abilities...but it would probably be much more efficient to just tap it as needed and refill it once its empty, as I suspect these medallions are being created, at least in part, by compounders.  Plus, if you swallowed it, which would probably be difficult given the size, you wouldn't be able to burn off the nicrosil portion...I guess the toxicity wouldn't hurt you since you'd be compounding gold...but you'd still have to pass it naturally...

An interesting idea @robardin, definitely hadn't heard anyone propose it before.

[Yata he/him]

I actually think the only-allomancy-compound is possible (called in another places "pseudo-Compound") and someone think we have already see it with Bleeder and his F-Steel and A-Steel Spikes.

@hwilesthe problem here it's about two different things. Identity is defined as a resonance who allow Investiture to interact with other Investiture without the standard Inferference...this happen naturally all the time with Human's Soul and its parts.

A metalmind without Intentity (unkeyed) simply didn't start interference with no one. But the ability to tap/store isn't in the metalmind, but in the ferring. A metalmind is simply a store from Investiture.

If you have some other way to magical interac with metal you will be able to interact with a Metalmind once you bypass with Identity. Therefore a Coinshoot would be able to burn a unkeyed Steelmind for a pseudo compound.

Ok I was searching for a WoB about an Augur and a Goldmind...but I found something better:

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KURKISTAN

If you spiked out Miles' Feruchemical gold, would he be able to burn his Allomantic reserves [read: Feruchemical reserves using Allomancy] and heal it back?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Uhn... Okay. If you spiked out his ability to heal gold and somehow left him alive.

KURKISTAN

Yeah, but still having Allomancy.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Still has allomancy.

KURKISTAN

And he’s like in the middle of burning a goldmind.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes, that would still work. It'd still have a Spiritual connection to him.

KURKISTAN

So if you're a Coinshot and you get [spiked] to have Feruchemical steel, and then you lose the spike after making a store, you can still Compound that for speed?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes... Yeah, that should still work.

KURKISTAN

Was Paalm doing that?

BRANDON SANDERSON

That's a RAFO.

 

[Yezrien]

So if I'm reading that WoB right, this pseudo-compounding is completely possible. Allomancy isn't dependent on identity. There are no individual power sources; all allomancers draw from the same source: preservation. The only barrier to burning a metalmind is the identity of the feruchemist that charged it. So an unkeyed metalmind should be fair game.

Yes, it would break physics. But I think that's the point of expanding the magic systems like this. We're not going to get to the Mistborn space opera by playing Skybreaker with the laws of physics.

[Jofwu he/him]

On 2/4/2017 at 2:30 AM, Belzedar said:

So if I'm reading that WoB right, this pseudo-compounding is completely possible. Allomancy isn't dependent on identity.

I disagree. Isn't that what Brandon is referring to about needing a spiritual connection? Identity being the thing that provides that connection. The argument here is that you can only compound with metalminds keyed to your identity- not that you necessarily have to have the both sets of powers. In the examples in the WoB, the person burning the metalmind is the person who created the metalmind. Different situation.

[Yata he/him]

Identity is only the way Investiture may work (or not work) with other Investiture. Without it, you will bypass every kind of matching problem. Notice that if this doesn't work...Medallion neither will work because also there you woll need "a spiritual connection"

[Yezrien]

1 hour ago, jofwu said:

I disagree. Isn't that what Brandon is referring to about needing a spiritual connection? Identity being the thing that provides that connection. The argument here is that you can only compound with metalminds keyed to your identity- not that you necessarily have to have the both sets of powers. In the examples in the WoB, the person burning the metalmind is the person who created the metalmind. Different situation.

Identity and connection are two different things. That's why feruchemists have a metal for each. And it's identity that keys a metalmind, not connection.

And based on the examples in BoM, the identity-key on your metalmind doesn't allow you to tap it. It just prevents any one else from tapping it. Kelesina's goldmind didn't have anything more than a standard one; it had less.

And in TFE, when Vin tries to burn Sazed's metalmind, we're told that the sensation is the same as when a feruchemist tries to tap a metalmind keyed to someone else. So, presumably, an unkeyed metalmind would remove the restriction in both cases. An gold misting could burn Kelesina's gold bracelet, and get a massive burst of healing.

Edited February 6, 2017 by Belzedar