Lerasium's Main Function (& Harmonium Function?)

[YungDankBlast he/him]

In The Well of Ascension we see Lerasium burned by Elend so that he becomes a Mistborn of extremely powerful Investiture.  However, Brandon has said in his notes that this is simply a side effect of burning Lerasium, not the main effect.

Quote

As a tidbit, that was a side effect of what that bead of metal did. It wasn’t the main purpose of the bead, and if another Allomancer were to burn it, it would do something else. 

Now, I'm not sure if someone else made a topic on this already (I tried looking but couldn't find anything), but it seems fairly obvious to me what that function is.  When burned, Lerasium should be able to be used in place of any allomantic metal reserve (i.e. I could burn Lerasium as a mistborn and, if I chose, get extra strength, speed, and balance as if I were burning very pure allomantic pewter).  Here is my evidence...

Lerasium is related to Preservation and is thus linked to Allomancy.  Its opposite, Atium, is related to Ruin and Hemalurgy.  So, if we see how Atium acts in Hemalurgy, it may give us a clue about how Lerasium acts in Allomancy.  As a Hemalurgic spike, Atium steals any attribute/Investiture, so Lerasium in my mind should at likewise.

Throughout the original Mistborn trilogy, Vin draws in the mists, the gaseous form of Lerasium, and burns them for super heightened Allomantic strength, such as when her Allomantic steel power can see the Lord Rulers bands even though they are heavily invested (and maybe pierce his skin?  I don't remember...).  However, toward the end of Hero of Ages, Vin draws the mists in her fight against Marsh and burns Lerasium in this way, gaining other allomantic powers by only burning the mists.  I don't have a physical copy of the novel, so I can't quote directly from the book, but that is how I remember that scene happening.

However, this brings up another question.  If Atium and Lerasium both perform all functions within their respective systems, can Harmonium do the same within Feruchemy, storing and tapping any attribute (that can be stored and tapped through other metals)?  Harmonium is ettmetal, so it may be difficult to keep a Harmonium metalmind from exploding, making this theory unlikely, but I believe it needed to be discussed.

Again, I don't know if someone else came to this conclusion already, I assumed this was common knowledge until I could not find anything on it.

Edited January 23, 2017 by CayJoBla

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

I have long had a theory that if you tapped harmonium - without having stored anything in it - you would become a feruchemist. I also think that an Atium spike should do something without it ever having stolen an attribute. As a physical form of a Shard all three should have innate investiture...

[YungDankBlast he/him]

On 1/22/2017 at 10:50 PM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

I have long had a theory that if you tapped harmonium - without having stored anything in it - you would become a feruchemist. I also think that an Atium spike should do something without it ever having stolen an attribute. As a physical form of a Shard all three should have innate investiture...

I thought about that a little bit... its makes sense that Harmonium can be tapped without storing, as we can see that it has innate energy already.

As for atium, I was thinking about how lerasium made someone a Mistborn, but with atium, the innate ability would... make the user a Hemalurgist?  It doesn't seem like that would be it, but you're right, and I think it should have some sort of innate investiture.

Back to Harmonium, I was thinking, if Lerasium can give any allomantic power and Atium can steal any attribute, can Harmonium be tapped for any feruchemical attribute without storing?  Or possibly, could you, say, store speed in a steelmind, transfer the stored investiture to the Harmonium, and tap the Harmonium for another attribute?  It doesn't really follow Feruchemy mechanics, but it's an interesting idea.

[Spoolofwhool]

57 minutes ago, CayJoBla said:

As for atium, I was thinking about how lerasium made someone a Mistborn, but with atium, the innate ability would... make the user a Hemalurgist?  It doesn't seem like that would be it, but you're right, and I think it should have some sort of innate investiture.

Everyone is already a hemalurgist. It's a Cosmere-wide phenomenon that anyone can perform. Atium steals any attribute and does so better than any other metal.

[YungDankBlast he/him]

28 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Everyone is already a hemalurgist. It's a Cosmere-wide phenomenon that anyone can perform. Atium steals any attribute and does so better than any other metal.

Rereading what I wrote I realize that I worded it wrong... by Hemalurgist I was referring to someone who is spiked, or someone who uses Hemalurgy, which I know is redundant, I was just trying to compare to how Lerasium turns people into Allomancers.  My point in bringing this up was to show that atium does not have a side effect comparable to lerasium's granting of allomantic power, so there is a possibility of an alternate side effect.

[Samaldin he/him]

1 hour ago, CayJoBla said:

Rereading what I wrote I realize that I worded it wrong... by Hemalurgist I was referring to someone who is spiked, or someone who uses Hemalurgy, which I know is redundant, I was just trying to compare to how Lerasium turns people into Allomancers.  My point in bringing this up was to show that atium does not have a side effect comparable to lerasium's granting of allomantic power, so there is a possibility of an alternate side effect.

Maybe instinctive knowledge of where bind points for spikes are?

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

Something mental or temporal I would suspect, as Lerasium falls under physical/enhancement... Lerasium's side effect fits that, anyway. Alternatively, just as Lerasium imparts a stronger connection to Preservation, an Atium spike could impart a stronger connection to Ruin (more so than the basic connection granted by a spike) though what that would do remains a question. I like the 'instinctive knowledge of hemalurgic bind points' though, especially since it fits the mental aspect of Atium.

Being able to use harmonium to fuel feruchemy is part of the theory I mentioned. I don't remember which thread I posted the whole thing down in though... it's been a while since I thought about it.

Edited January 25, 2017 by Kingsdaughter613

[Yata he/him]

4 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Something mental or temporal I would suspect, as Lerasium falls under physical/enhancement... Lerasium's side effect fits that, anyway. Alternatively, just as Lerasium imparts a stronger connection to Preservation, an Atium spike could impart a stronger connection to Ruin (more so than the basic connection granted by a spike) though what that would do remains a question. I like the 'instinctive knowledge of hemalurgic bind points' though, especially since it fits the mental aspect of Atium.

But the Lerasium  "stronger connection to Preservation" happen because it's the Lerasium's effect (rewrite Spirit Web) and without specific istruction the Lerasium expend itself in this "default rewrite". Like a specific and default istance of the power.

Atium on another side didn't have any relationship with rewrite spirit web, I hardly could see this works....Maybe there is an alloy Atium-Lerasium to performe this task.

For now the only know Atium's side effect is the ability to find easily the Hemalurgic Binds Spots...But it's an effect shared with everything that give you acess to the Spiritual Realm (this for WoB)

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

Hemalurgy is all about rewriting the spirit web. Atium can steal any aspect from the spirit web and splice it onto someone else. So there is clearly a connection... and using Hemalurgy does impart a stronger connection to Ruin; we've seen that. It would make sense to me that a blank Atium spike should do this to an even greater extent as the effect would be caused directly by Ruin's investiture (as opposed to merely being the passive power source for the spirit web splice.) Provided we are correct that such a spike would have an effect that is.

[Spoolofwhool]

Hemalurgy is about adding to the spiritweb, not rewriting it. You are incapable of directly changing what exists originally; you can only add to it.

Hemalurgy also doesn't create a connection to Ruin. What it is actually doing is creating weak points in the spiritweb that Ruin can infiltrate to control the hemalurgic construct, but anyone with the right power can use those flaws, as we've seen.

[Yata he/him]

As Spoolowhool said Hemalurgy didn't rewrite Spirit Web. Notice that also Trellium's Spike may steal everything (there is a theory about "all Godmetal's Spike steal everything but with some peculiar extra").

Notice that ironically usually use Hemalurgy to gift Allomancy may give to the reciver more Connection with Preservation throught the stolen's soul...So it's possible to gain more Connection to Ruin,Preservation or others with Hemalurgy but it's not something strictly relate to Atium.

I have a theory that Atium also in a natural state works like a Spike with a very weak charge but there is no proof for now (except that TLR's Atiuminds were Spikes other than Metalminds), I tried to ask this to Brandon in his recently update, but He skipped my message unluckly.

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

The lord ruler's metal minds were not spikes; I believe the older WoB was clarified in a more recent one. 

I think we are using the same word differently; I call splicing a rewriting, especially when the result is no longer human.

Without knowing what Trellium is we don't necessarily know what it does. Can someone look up SOS and find out which abilities we've seen it steal. All I recall offhand is F steel.

[Yata he/him]

1 hour ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Without knowing what Trellium is we don't necessarily know what it does. Can someone look up SOS and find out which abilities we've seen it steal. All I recall offhand is F steel.

At least F-Steel and A-Steel and also an unknown attribute used to made the Chimeras. It's also likely that Set's Spikes are made of Trellium and therefore also F-Gold and A-Chromium....Of course my "could steal everything" could be too much, but there are clues about this possibility.

1 hour ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

The lord ruler's metal minds were not spikes; I believe the older WoB was clarified in a more recent one. 

Really ? Interesting, I remember only the Spike-thing and the fact Rashek heard Ruin's voice...So my idea was that all the Atium may work as Spike and Rashek was forced to accept a bit of Ruin's annoyance to keep the Atiuminds safe.

1 hour ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

I think we are using the same word differently; I call splicing a rewriting, especially when the result is no longer human.

Understood. But in the case of Lerasium-rewriting the Spiritweb is actual forged, while with the Atium-Cup-Paste you actually can't obtain something not already in someone else spiritweb. So in theory you may steal "Connection to Ruin" (or to Preservation to be honest) from someone to gift it to a reciver and the reciver has a greater connection to Ruin thanks to Hemalurgy (notice that this may be performed probably with a dedicated metal not only with Atium.

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

I actually think only Lerasium can steal the connection to Preservation. We don't know enough though.

We are not told what material the spikes  used by the set. They aren't said to be unusual, so we don't know...

Right now we know that Trellium steals steel. That's something at least. It may only steal physical abilities then. It could be limited to just steal or can steal both a and f abilities, but not human attributes.

Something to ask Brandon then: is Trellium limited to the physical abilities? (What I think is most likely?)

Edited January 25, 2017 by Kingsdaughter613

[Spoolofwhool]

2 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Right now we know that Trellium steals steel. That's something at least. It may only steal physical abilities then. It could be limited to just steal or can steal both a and f abilities, but not human attributes.

Trellium was used in all of Bleeder's spikes so f-steel and a-steel. In addition, it was used in the creation of the chimeras, indicating the ability to steal a non-ability attribute as well.

Edited January 25, 2017 by Spoolofwhool

[The One Who Connects he/him]

45 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

it was used in the creation of the chimeras, indicating the ability to steal a non-ability attribute at all.

I'd have to reread the descriptions of the chimeras, but is it possible that a human attribute was stolen? Something akin to the changes that created the Koloss, but with only one spike rather than four. Quadrupedal would imply a starting host that is not human. Their facial features somewhat resemble canines, and we know animals like Wolfhounds existed on Scadrial in the past. I don't know about the inverted knee/elbow joints, but I'm reaching here as is.

[Spoolofwhool]

7 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

I'd have to reread the descriptions of the chimeras, but is it possible that a human attribute was stolen? Something akin to the changes that created the Koloss, but with only one spike rather than four. Quadrupedal would imply a starting host that is not human. Their facial features somewhat resemble canines, and we know animals like Wolfhounds existed on Scadrial in the past. I don't know about the inverted knee/elbow joints, but I'm reaching here as is.

It's possible. All that I'm fairly sure of is that the attribute used to create them wasn't the ability to use a manifestation of investiture. 

Edit: just realized my wording got a but mangled at the end implying that I thought it couldn't take a human attribute. That's wrong. I've fixed it.

Edited January 25, 2017 by Spoolofwhool

[Yata he/him]

4 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

I actually think only Lerasium can steal the connection to Preservation. We don't know enough though.

Actually whatever Spike may stole "Connection" may stole any kind of Connections. Notice also that for definition an Atium Spike may stole everything and therefore Connection to Preservation.

Returning to the Set and Trellium Spike, I think they would choose to have Trellium Spike to hide from Harmony. But other than that, we know that Trellium may steal at least one kind of Human (or animal) Attribute as show with the Chimeras.

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

4 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Trellium was used in all of Bleeder's spikes so f-steel and a-steel. In addition, it was used in the creation of the chimeras, indicating the ability to steal a non-ability attribute as well.

Thats why I said the physical quadrant. It includes both a and f steel. We've seen hemalurgic creations that did not use human attributes: the inquisitors. Until we know otherwise my theory is physical quadrant attributes. Possibly Iron too. (It seems odd that Iron steals only one thing. Actually, all the human attributes seem odd. I keep thinking it should be human physical attributes,  human mental attributes, etc. to fit closer to the allomantic/feruchemical groups...)

Edited January 25, 2017 by Kingsdaughter613

[Spoolofwhool]

41 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Thats why I said the physical quadrant. It includes both a and f steel. We've seen hemalurgic creations that did not use human attributes: the inquisitors. Until we know otherwise my theory is physical quadrant attributes. Possibly Iron too. (It seems odd that Iron steals only one thing. Actually, all the human attributes seem odd. I keep thinking it should be human physical attributes,  human mental attributes, etc. to fit closer to the allomantic/feruchemical groups...)

The inquisitors weren't physically warped past what was required in order to keep them alive past the adding of spike; the chimeras clearly were, and therefore seem to be far more like koloss as hemalurgic creations than inquisitors. Since koloss do require a human non-ability attribute in order to achieve the change they exhibited, I don't see why the chimeras wouldn't either. 

Don't forget that the groupings are just categories in-Cosmere scholars have created; they aren't actual guidelines for how the metallic arts work. There's not reason why it should be a specific way just to make the groupings fit better. 

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

I meant more that for abilities a spike can steal one of four things, but only one kind of attribute can be stolen? It feels like something doesn't add up. 

The metal groups aren't just Khriss theorizing; all the physical allomantic metals are stolen by one type of metal. Ditto for the feruchmical physical quadrant. So there is clearly a reason certain metals are grouped together. Whether or not the quadrant names are accurate is another matter, but the groupings seem to involve an underlying function of the metallic arts.

Just learned that Brass and Electrum's feruchemical abilities were switched by mistake. That explains something I've been wondering about... I need to check the coppermind more often. Still confused though; Shouldn't nicrosil steal enhancement powers and electrum hybrid ones? Why would Duralumin and Aluminum steal powers? None of the others work that way... The others seem to work: base steals attribute and Alloy steals powers. Could someone lead me to the words of Brandon explaining this?

Edited January 26, 2017 by Kingsdaughter613

[YungDankBlast he/him]

7 hours ago, Yata said:

Actually whatever Spike may stole "Connection" may stole any kind of Connections. Notice also that for definition an Atium Spike may stole everything and therefore Connection to Preservation.

Coppermind:

Quote

When used as a Hemalurgic spike, atium is like a wild card. Depending on where it is placed, it can steal any Hemalurgic property and it does so better than the original spike

Just clarifying that atium cannot steal "everything", but it can steal any Hemalurgic attribute.  Connection to Preservation is not a Hemalurgic property that we know of as of yet, but it is true that stealing allomancy may have the side effect of increasing one's connection to Preservation.

Though I think instinctive knowledge of bind points would be neat, I don't think that is a side effect as the Inquisitors would have known that atium could steal any hemalurgic attribute immediately during their experimentation.

There is a problem with the idea that a blank atium spike would grant abilities in that using a blank spike would not grant power, but steal it from you.  Now, the bind point may be different for granting and stealing powers, making me wrong, but with all the possible things atium can steal, there are a plethora of bind points, and someone would have to be very precise if they did not want to inadvertently steal an ability from themself (Or are the abilities only stolen when the spike is removed?).

As for Trellium, I have not read SOS in a while, so I don't really remember much about it, but it granted kandra to steal allomancy and feruchemy yes?  I also found it peculiar that only one spike was used to grant feruchemy/allomancy, as two were needed to grant human abilities to the kandra.  To me, it is sounding more and more like that spike was made of atium.  More power form atium spikes = less spikes needed for power, atium stealing/granting any hemalurgic attributes... The problems being that I don't remember the description of the spike being anything close to atium, and Trell is hinted at quite frequently.  So, Trellium has similar hemalurgic qualities to atium, but whether it is because they are both god metals or some other reason is not certain.

[Yata he/him]

@CayJoBla you are mixing things together:

1) Of course I meant "If there is a Hemalurgic metal that may steal Connection the Atium would be capable too" (also if there are attributes that only the Atium may steal...For example the A-Atium or F-Atium themself). I honestly think "Connection" is one of the missing Human Attributes, for a couple of reasons:

- there are often likehood between Feruchemy and Hemalurgic Human Attributes and Connection is one of the Feruchemical Attributes.

- This is a meta-story reason, we know that a Cognitive Shadow needs a new connection to the physical realm to return in flesh, and we know of one being of that kind who exploited Hemalurgy to gain it.

2) I don't propose blank Atium spike give you an ability, but just that blank Atium still carry the Hemalurgic Fault also without be with Hemalurgic charge (something like, Ruin may influence you and with enough Spikes control you)....Of course the core concept of this idea of mine came by a WoB but recently it was clarificated (thanks to @Kingsdaughter613 for the information).

3) We know (not theory or speculation) burning Atium give you an help to find the bindpoint (there is a WoB but I have an hard time to find it) but this happen with everything that allow you to glimpse in the Spiritual Realm not only Atium

4)About the Kandra and Spike, you are misunderstood the point:

A Single Spike is enough to give whatever it keeps. Therefore A Single A-Steel Spike give you the Coinshoot's ability and a single Iron Spike give to the reciver the double of an Human Strenght. A Kandra needs two Spikes (commonly called a Blessing) because they are not Human beings and gain Humanity and Sentience through the extra Soul in the Blessing....In theory as far as we know, you may give to a Kandra a Blessing made by two different metals.

A Kandra may in theory mantain himself Sapient with a Single Spike (half Blessings ?) but He would suffer a lot and his psyche will have hard time to remain whole...We see this in three istancesof this: one in SoS with Bleeder and two in BoM with Tensoon who give one of his Spikes to another Kandra who lost one of his own (without a great result).

[Spoolofwhool]

@Kingsdaughter613 True, it is weird. I think it is an availability thing. That, or you can steal variations on physical strength depending on which bindpoint you use to charge the spike, unlike allomancy which only has one mode. So steel let's you steal four different powers, but iron lets you steal a number of variation. At the same time you can argue that the four physical allomantic powers are just variations of the same attribute.

What you noted about the deviation from the pattern has been address before. I can't remember what the conclusion was though, if any was reached. 

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

The only thing I can find is the old (inaccurate) ars arcanum from Mistborn. The hemalurgic abilities of metals are not listed in the new books.

And I can't find anything on theoryland about it either. If the source is from that ars arcanum it may be wrong...

Edited January 26, 2017 by Kingsdaughter613