The secret behind the Rosharian Gas Giants [Theory]

[Unodus he/him]

Alright, so I just finished reading Arcanum Unbound. If you haven't read it, this is me warning you now that this a theory that might have spoilers.

Let's talk about the Rosharan system.

Spoiler

http://coppermind.net/w/images/Starchart_roshar_color.jpg

There are ten gas giants, one for each essence. Khriss describes them as: 
 

Spoiler

"Nobody has been able to observe them directly, as their manifestation on Shadesmar is minor"

This seems really weird to me.
A persons cognitive representation is a manifestation of how an object is perceived in the mind. If this is the case, the planets should have huge cognitive identities- the heralds are essentially demigods. People use the names and personifications of the heralds all the time. Why do the planets that share their essences name and color, which should act as a focus point for their cognitive identity, not show on the cognitive plane? They are a huge part of peoples beliefs, whether or not you believe in the heralds- that planet in the sky are named after the ten essences, and this doesn't reflect in Shadesmar? It seems blatant to me that they are placed by Order- all uniform distance from each other, all the same size. I do not think they would be there for no reason. 

I propose this:
Between Desolations, the heralds go to a place called damnation. The tranquiline halls have always been described as being above. From the description of torture we see before the breaking of the oathpact, is it possible that the searing is similar to what one might experience being on a gas giant? (assuming that either super healing keeps them alive, or that they're there only spiritually) Through some means, I believe that each herald is sent to their individual planets which are the damnation- which is a necessary component to keeping Odium bound within the Rosharan system (whether this is through some form of magic, or if the complex alignment of the planets keeps the asteroid field around the inner system to physically keep Odium trapped).

When the oathpact was broken, this mechanism placed by Honor was also broken- which is why they lost their identity on the cognitive realm.

I would go even further to say that these ten planets are the legendary Dawnshards.

Scholars have found no records of the dawnshards because they are physically not on the planet. They were looking for swords when they should have been looking for the dawn in the sky. Without the Heralds supporting the Dawnshards in damnation, Honor feels Odium will break free because the cage is not being maintained.

When used in the reference to the poem of Ista
"Taking the Dawnshard, known to bind any creature voidish or mortal, he crawled up the steps crafted for Heralds, ten strides tall apiece, toward the grand temple above."  

The steps crafted by the Heralds are the ten planets, the "grand temple" is the tranquiline halls, the dawnshard is the piece of honor that manifests on the planets which has since passed out (like how shardblades died on the recreance) which is why Khriss doesn't see them in Shadesmar.

 

Sorry if this writing is a little rushed, but I am curious to see if people have considered this as a possibility.

 

Edited January 12, 2017 by Unodus

[Blightsong he/him]

A few points to consider.

 

Why would something named after a Herald gain a large cognitive representation just because people think about what they are named after. If a building is named after Kelsier, does is it thought about more in general because Kelsier is worshiped, or does it only get thought of by people that know that the building exists? I think you shouldkeep in mind that the populace of Roshar as a whole probably dont know too much about astrology.

 

Also, the oathpact wasn't completely broken, Taln still kept Odium trapped for thousands of years.

 

 

[Tsidqiyah he/him]

I agree with @Blightsong the planets are likely unknown by the rosharians. I suspect the outer planets were named by the scholars of Silverlight. 

[Lindel he/him]

As I understand it a planet only has a presence in the cognitive realm if it's inhabited, hence why you can just walk from one Shardworld to another. So why would you expect the gas giants, which aren't inhabited, to be accessible? 

[Raven]

 

5 hours ago, Unodus said:

"Nobody has been able to observe them directly, as their manifestation on Shadesmar is minor"

Why do these Planets have a  small manifestation , as implied in Khriss essay, if they aren't inhabited?

[WildSpeculation he/him]

Because people know that they exist. I am sure that people see them as stars, but they know that they exist. Jupiter is the brightest object in our sky after the sun and moon. (enough so that it can cast shadows if the other two are below the horizon.) We (on Earth) knew Jupiter existed and thought that it was special even before we had a way to directly observe it. I am sure that there are scholars that see the 10 bright stars that are in their sky. There may even be a super station about having good luck if Jez is high in the sky on the night of your birth or something similar.

[Spoolofwhool]

I think two premises are incorrect in this theory. 

The first one, and main one, is that the gas giants are not named after the Heralds. The names of the gas giants are just the Vorin numbers from one to ten, derived from the Vorin names for the Heralds. I'm assuming that the colouration and symbology are just the ones linked to the numbers as well. 

Secondly, as Blightsong says, there's no reason why thinking about something would automatically have you assigning cognitive thought towards anything named after them. So the premise that they should have cognitive aspect because people are thinking about the thing they're named after, which really is the numbers, not the Heralds, seems flimsy to me.

Additional point: I have a feeling that the gas giants are obscured by the asteroid belt for the most part, and as such are not visible from Roshar. This is reinforced by Khriss' observation that they cannot be observed. Therefore, the chart and the names on it were likely given by Silverlight scholars or whichever external organization drew it, using the Rosharan systems for the symbols and naming. Furthermore, I'm slightly skeptical that the gas giants will play much of a part in the greater Stormlight Archive. Khriss' comments seem to be indicating that they won't be that important, and as far as I can tell, we have had no reference to them in WoK or WoR. Since we're moving past the setup of the first arc and into the meat already, it seems strange he would start introducing that critical at this stage. 

[Unodus he/him]

8 hours ago, Blightsong said:

the populace of Roshar as a whole probably dont know too much about astrology.

"My gods are the spirits of the stones." Szeth whispered. "The sun and the stars. Not men."
"Kadasixes and stars, this is a puzzle" -An Azish man
Not to mention the list of named stars, starspren and the Stormwardens (who are more meteorologists, but still must use star positions for charting parts of the sky, presumably).

And that's on Words of Radiance alone, I can't check WoK because I don't have it on kindle form.
Does it sound like Rosharians don't care for Astronomy?

8 hours ago, Blightsong said:

Also, the oathpact wasn't completely broken, Taln still kept Odium trapped for thousands of years.

Yo, that was wishful thinking. Putting the responsibility of ten people on one mans shoulders was doomed to fail, just like if you put 1 guard on duty when you need 10 means you're technically still on duty but you're still not going to be able to do the job of 10 people forever.

 

7 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

The first one, and main one, is that the gas giants are not named after the Heralds. The names of the gas giants are just the Vorin numbers from one to ten, derived from the Vorin names for the Heralds. I'm assuming that the colouration and symbology are just the ones linked to the numbers as well. 

I never said they were? But each herald represents an essence, and the numbers on the side may be Vorin 1-10- but the symbols on the planet are irrefutably the symbols of each order which the Heralds founded. 

 

I'm not saying it's a fully fleshed out theory, just wanted to see if anyone else had considered it.

Edited January 12, 2017 by Unodus

[Blightsong he/him]

48 minutes ago, Unodus said:

"My gods are the spirits of the stones." Szeth whispered. "The sun and the stars. Not men."
"Kadasixes and stars, this is a puzzle" -An Azish man
Not to mention the list of named stars, starspren and the Stormwardens (who are more meteorologists, but still must use star positions for charting parts of the sky, presumably).

And that's on Words of Radiance alone, I can't check WoK because I don't have it on kindle form.
Does it sound like Rosharians don't care for Astronomy?

Yo, that was wishful thinking. Putting the responsibility of ten people on one mans shoulders was doomed to fail, just like if you put 1 guard on duty when you need 10 means you're technically still on duty but you're still not going to be able to do the job of 10 people forever.

 

I never said they were? But each herald represents an essence, and the numbers on the side may be Vorin 1-10- but the symbols on the planet are irrefutably the symbols of each order which the Heralds founded. 

 

I'm not saying it's a fully fleshed out theory, just wanted to see if anyone else had considered it.

Just because scholars might know about the planets doesn't mean it is anywhere near common knowledge, or that it is something often thought about. It surely is, because they do have a cognitive representation, but it makes way more sense for that representation to be small than for it to be large.

 

We have WoB that the Oathpact still functioned in some capacity, thus it wasn't fully broken as you suggest. Regardless of WoB, it is evident in the fact that Odium wasn't able to invade Roshar. Also, we really don't know enough about the Oathpact to say for sure that Taln by himself can't do a sufficient job compared to all 10 heralds. I mean, he held out for 4,500 years. That is a longer gap between desolations than any time previous (by the best guess of the people who've worked on the Cosmere timeline, which is a pretty good one).

 

I also want to point out that the Ten Essenses most likely arent based in actual Realmatics or science. Khriss says as much in the ars Arcanum.

 

I like the effort and thought put into this post. I've had similar thoughts regarding the gas giants. Brandon has said that there is something bigger going on in relation to them.

 

 

[HavoKinetic]

Quote

- all uniform distance from each other, all the same size. I do not think they would be there for no reason. 

I thought we had WoB or WoSomeone that the uniformity in size and distance was only in representation on the map, not actual true uniformity. 

Doesn't refute the theory, of course.

[Spoolofwhool]

3 hours ago, Unodus said:

Not to mention the list of named stars, starspren and the Stormwardens (who are more meteorologists, but still must use star positions for charting parts of the sky, presumably).

Stormwardens are more mathematicians than meteorologists. It's been pointed out a few times that predicting upcoming highstorms was largely mathematical, and they don't predict weather in general, just highstorms.

3 hours ago, Unodus said:

I never said they were? But each herald represents an essence, and the numbers on the side may be Vorin 1-10- but the symbols on the planet are irrefutably the symbols of each order which the Heralds founded. 

You're correct there, but my point still stands, which is that nothing is indicating that the planets have some sort of deeper connection to the Heralds. All that you have cited is just circumstantial association. As far as I can tell, each Herald was associated with an essence, just like they are associated with a number, a gemstone and a body focus. They do not represent those attributes. In the same regard, those symbols which are also the symbols of the orders of the Knight Radiants were not created for those purposes. They were originally just ten fundamental glyphs which were adopted into the symbols of the orders. Finally, the Heralds did not found the orders; they were simply the patrons of the orders. The only Herald who, as far as we know, had anything to do with the formation of the orders was Ishar. It's even said that Nale refused to be the patron of the Skybreakers for some time.

Edited January 13, 2017 by Spoolofwhool

[dgenio8]

16 hours ago, Blightsong said:

We have WoB that the Oathpact still functioned in some capacity, thus it wasn't fully broken as you suggest. Regardless of WoB, it is evident in the fact that Odium wasn't able to invade Roshar. Also, we really don't know enough about the Oathpact to say for sure that Taln by himself can't do a sufficient job compared to all 10 heralds. I mean, he held out for 4,500 years. That is a longer gap between desolations than any time previous (by the best guess of the people who've worked on the Cosmere timeline, which is a pretty good one).

Are we sure about this?! Is it the longer gap between desolations? Why would Taln alone do a better job than the others? This is actually making me generate a small theory... I will post it now

[Spoolofwhool]

1 hour ago, dgenio8 said:

Are we sure about this?! Is it the longer gap between desolations? Why would Taln alone do a better job than the others? This is actually making me generate a small theory... I will post it now

The general thought is that a Desolation occurs when a Herald breaks under torture. Taln is the most resilient Herald so it takes longer than other Heralds to break, so he hasn't started previous Desolations. It is faulty certain that the Desolations didn't have that long in-between them previously, probably not more than centuries. I'm not sure what part you're questioning with "are you sure about that?" So I can't answer that question.

[Yata he/him]

2 hours ago, dgenio8 said:

Are we sure about this?! Is it the longer gap between desolations? Why would Taln alone do a better job than the others? This is actually making me generate a small theory... I will post it now

Well you may notice it with in-book facts...There were multiple Desolations (not 99 like the myths says but multiple) but The Shattering and H&C&O's birth happened only 5-6k years before WoTK's prologue. This mean this multiple Desolations have to happened in a relative small timeframe.

[happyman he/him]

All I can say for certain is that there is Something Up with those ten gas giants.

That kind of system is not remotely typical in either the real world or the Cosmere.  Under normal circumstances, those Gas Giants would destabilize each other, colliding, combining, or falling into the sun or out of the system.  In the Cosmere, we see nothing remotely similar.

And ten of them?  Around Roshar?  You might as well put up a neon sign saying "These are important; pay attention!"

[Unodus he/him]

Was reading some WoB's and found this btw
might be relevant, but doesn't necessarily prove anything

Quote

QUESTION

How much involvement does the other planet in the same system as Roshar have with Roshar?

BRANDON SANDERSON

*long pause* Your question has a fundamental flaw to it.

QUESTION

And that is?

BRANDON SANDERSON

That there are multiple planets that have an influence on Roshar.

QUESTION

I thought there were multiple planets in the system that--

BRANDON SANDERSON

There are, but you said "the other", there are more than one so the phrase, "the other" doesn't make sense.

QUESTION

How much influence do the other planets have?

BRANDON SANDERSON

A great deal.

Quote

LEIYAN

There are more than three planets in the solar system?

BRANDON SANDERSON

There are. With non-sentient beings. There are three planets of importance. So I didn't give you very much, you already knew … here's something. You may have heard a reading from one of those planets today.

 

[Stone warden]

So what readings had he done that could be from one of the planets?

and with regards to the planet the reading is from is it from one of the planets with non sentient life on it or the more usual ones like braize?

[Unodus he/him]

They are gas giants, which means the entire planet is made out of gases

 

Spoiler

Quote

LEIYAN

There are more than three planets in the solar system?

BRANDON SANDERSON

There are. With non-sentient beings.

 

This quote makes me wonder if the gas giants are the homes of un-bonded spren of each order- since the idea is that they only get sentience through the Nahel bond iirc

[Spoolofwhool]

9 hours ago, Unodus said:

They are gas giants, which means the entire planet is made out of gases

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

This quote makes me wonder if the gas giants are the homes of un-bonded spren of each order- since the idea is that they only get sentience through the Nahel bond iirc

All spren are splinters which means they are sentient. That means that there cannot be spren on the gas giants. The spren do not gain sentience from the nahel bond, they appear to gain the power to influence the physical realm more strongly while maintaining their sentience there. It has been clearly indicated that at least some of the unbonded spren which form nahel bonds are from high-functioning societies before they crossed, such as Wyndle's type of spren which had a group which presided and decided over who to bond to.

9 hours ago, Stone warden said:

So what readings had he done that could be from one of the planets?

and with regards to the planet the reading is from is it from one of the planets with non sentient life on it or the more usual ones like braize?

It seems to me that he's referring to a reading from one of the three planets of importance, not the unimportant ones. What's interesting to me is that the question was from a WoR Q&A which implies that the reading was probably from WoR.

[Ari he/him]

21 hours ago, Stone warden said:

So what readings had he done that could be from one of the planets?

and with regards to the planet the reading is from is it from one of the planets with non sentient life on it or the more usual ones like braize?

Very minor spoilers about the setting of an unreleased work:

Spoiler

One of Brandon's incomplete ideas is a cosmere story called The Silence Divine. It's set on Ashyn. The reading was likely from The Silence Divine, as any action on Roshar or Braize is likely to happen in the Stormlight Archive, and thus not be a hint.

I doubt the passage about the dawnshards is metaphorical for the Gas Giants. I expect the real reason they have a minor presence near Shadesmar is simply because there is limited observation of the gas giants, and limited knowledge of their existence (so people who observe the stars professionally probably knew enough about them to observe and number the outer gas giants in the correct order, but that knowledge hasn't become so relevant to the lives of everyday Rosharans that they have any significant cognitive presence that allows them to be observed indirectly from Shadesmar.

Edited January 19, 2017 by Ari
On second thoughts, minor spoilers have been tagged.

[Wandering Investor]

The reason the gas giants don't manifest in Sadesmar is the lack of thought. Thoughts are what cause things to manifest in Shadesmar is mental activity. That's why the space between planets in Shademar is walkable. It's there, but barely manifest. On the other hand, a populated planet will be manifested quite strongly. If there are non-sentient beings (likely spren) on the planets, then mental activity will be minimal, hence the minor manifestation. But I do agree that there is something up with the gas planets, the number and size of the planets seemed artificial. There is a possibility that they have a larger presence in the spiritual and physical realm, possibly forming Odium's cage.

On the heralds going to Damnation, there is a mention of hooks tearing flesh and fire being used on them. That is likely literal, and indicated a sentient torture. Since there isnt' sentience on the gas giants, they likely do not go there. Instead, I would guess Braize is where they go, or the other planet. 

The gap between the desolations may involve Odium's realizing that men will fight each other when not presented with a threat. Or the damaged Oathpact.

[The Voiceless One he/him]

On 1/19/2017 at 5:10 AM, Ari said:

I doubt the passage about the dawnshards is metaphorical for the Gas Giants.

It was once doubted that the listeners could be the void bringers.  why couldn't the dawnshards be the gas giants in a literal sense?  After all, they would have been placed and held in such an arbitrary orbit by a shard or similarly powerful entity.

[Ari he/him]

11 hours ago, The Voiceless One said:

It was once doubted that the listeners could be the void bringers.  why couldn't the dawnshards be the gas giants in a literal sense?  After all, they would have been placed and held in such an arbitrary orbit by a shard or similarly powerful entity.

You thought the end of book twist in WoK was a fake-out?

Anyway, it's about the weight of evidence and the expected way a narrative progresses. There's been no foreshadowing of the gas giants being relevant until Arcanum Unbounded. If they were something critical to the plot, there would have been at least some ancillary mention of them in the main narrative.

[The Voiceless One he/him]

They can still be important to the mechanics of imprisoning odium without being important to the main story line.  It would be difficult, but doable, to leave odium's problems out of the main story line.

[Ari he/him]

2 minutes ago, The Voiceless One said:

They can still be important to the mechanics of imprisoning odium without being important to the main story line.  It would be difficult, but doable, to leave odium's problems out of the main story line.

It's certainly a way of writing things, but that's not Brandon's way of writing things. This is the old "you can't solve the murder mystery yourself because I didn't give you all the clues you needed" writer trick, and to be honest, it's not exactly the best way to write. Much better to give them the clues but manage to surprise them anyway, if you can pull it off.