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Adonalsium's Vessel


The Watcher

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The idea that the Shards were originally all one is a truly creative idea. And it gives us as fans much to think about. For those who don't know Adonalsium was said to be the whole form of all the Shards. But some cosmic event Shattered them apart, what this event is we do not know. What we do know is that the resulting "Shards" took hosts. Honor took Tanavast, Ruin took Ati, and Preservation took Leras. These Vessels became the "personality" behind the near omnipotent powers of creation. We have also noted that the Shards twist their Vessel to the nature of their power, for example: Ati was said to originally be a kind human but that he was changed to be more in tune, more like his Shard. All of this to say that the Shards are held by people who used to be human. We witnessed this in Hero of Ages when Sazed took on both the powers of Ruin and Preservation, proof that a human could wield more than one Shard. Back to Adonalsium, before the Shards shattered apart it is said that Adonalsium created Humans of all the worlds, except Scadrial, so my question is why Humans? And how does this force know to create people with 2 arms and 2 legs, unless it had a base to copy. Namely itself. I propose that Adonalsium itself had a Vessel, and that once he created mankind, they proceeded to challenge his power. They Shattered him through means that we do not know of, and caused his power to spread itself throughout the cosmere. Because the Shards were used to having Vessels who controlled them, they copied what their original self did and chose Vessels. They then proceeded to claim worlds and influence the way the World was shaped and how the people acted. Also in Mistborn the secret history we see people of Silverlight who had traveled to Scadrial to attempt to take the power of Preservation once he had Splintered. So its reasonable to assume that if all the Shards were killed close together then they would all gather to one Vessel, recreating Adonalsium. All this is theory and probably has some holes, so feel free to poke those holes and tell me all about your own theories and ideas.

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28 minutes ago, The Watcher said:

All of this to say that the Shards are held by people who used to be human.

Not necessarily true - not all of the Vessels are humans.

29 minutes ago, The Watcher said:

Back to Adonalsium, before the Shards shattered apart it is said that Adonalsium created Humans of all the worlds, except Scadrial,

Scadrial isn't the only place humans doesn't predate arrival of the Shards. Khriss in Scadrial essays says it's one of the two.

30 minutes ago, The Watcher said:

my question is why Humans? And how does this force know to create people with 2 arms and 2 legs, unless it had a base to copy. Namely itself. I propose that Adonalsium itself had a Vessel, and that once he created mankind, they proceeded to challenge his power.

Well, there were humans on Yolen before Shattering happened. If Adonalsium is the creator of the whole cosmere then it does mean he also created mankind in particular

32 minutes ago, The Watcher said:

They Shattered him through means that we do not know of, and caused his power to spread itself throughout the cosmere. Because the Shards were used to having Vessels who controlled them, they copied what their original self did and chose Vessels.

.No - it's actually the sixteen Vessels who murdered Adonalsium and ripped it apart, taking Shards.

32 minutes ago, The Watcher said:

Also in Mistborn the secret history we see people of Silverlight who had traveled to Scadrial

Those are not people from Silverlight. Ire is from Sel, they're Elantrians.

34 minutes ago, The Watcher said:

people of Silverlight who had traveled to Scadrial to attempt to take the power of Preservation once he had Splintered

Ire planned to take Preservation before that. Once a Shard is Splintered it cannot be Ascended to (or at least that's how it is based on our current knowledge; anyway, Odium Splinters Shards to prevent people taking them up and rising to challenge him).

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6 minutes ago, Shqueeves said:

How do you know this?

They look like Elantrians. There's an Aon Ire which means "Age". A Scadrianized Aon Ire shows up as a symbol of one of the Parts in SH. They have a pipeline in Cognitive to channel Dor. They curse by "Devotion" and one of them says they won't need Devotion once they have Preservation.

"Alonoe" is also the name of the lake which is the dot in the Aons. Their names are also Aonic (built around Aons).

They live far longer than a human lifespan (Ruin comments on them being too old) which is also a characteristic of Elantrians.

Edited by Oversleep
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1 minute ago, Oversleep said:

They look like Elantrians. There's an Aon Ire which means "Age". A Scadrianized Aon Ire shows up as a symbol of one of the Parts in SH. They have a pipeline in Cognitive to channel Dor. They curse by "Devotion" and one of them says they won't need Devotion once they have Preservation.

They live far longer than a human lifespan (Ruin comments on them being too old) which is also a characteristic of Elantrians.

I need to reread Elantris. Then reread SH

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2 hours ago, Oversleep said:

Not necessarily true - not all of the Vessels are humans.

Scadrial isn't the only place humans doesn't predate arrival of the Shards. Khriss in Scadrial essays says it's one of the two.

Well, there were humans on Yolen before Shattering happened. If Adonalsium is the creator of the whole cosmere then it does mean he also created mankind in particular

.No - it's actually the sixteen Vessels who murdered Adonalsium and ripped it apart, taking Shards.

Those are not people from Silverlight. Ire is from Sel, they're Elantrians.

Ire planned to take Preservation before that. Once a Shard is Splintered it cannot be Ascended to (or at least that's how it is based on our current knowledge; anyway, Odium Splinters Shards to prevent people taking them up and rising to challenge him).

Thank you for the information. I wasn't aware that the That Khriss from Taldain and Nazh from Threnody were from Sel. We know Nazh is from Threnody because of the intro to Shadows for Silence in the Forests of Hell, Khriss says that she had the opportunity to deal with a person from Threnody often. Nazh is the only other "humanoid" if you will she has the opportunity to deal with often due to her banishment (see Mistborn Secret History). We see in Elantris how Hoid attempts to become Elantrian but fails, perhaps these two have attained the power of the Elantrians through some unknown method. This would explain their lifespan. And to the non-human Vessels, I presume you are speaking of Dominion and Devotion? Who were said to be reduced to primal powers that were controlled by the geographical landscape. Yes that is true, and we have not had the pleasure to see what species the other Vessels are. But the ones we know about are for the most part of the humanoid variety. And another piece of evidence to say that a Vessel was used for Adonalsium was the statement Khriss said about her suspicions

"Anyway, there was a God. Adonalsium. I don't know know if it was a force or a being, though I suspect the latter" Khriss

And to comment on the Odium splintering the Vessels. Well when Dominion was splintered the power ended up being stronger and in the hands of more people. Not likely something the very essence of Hate in the cosmere would want.

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3 hours ago, The Watcher said:

Honor took Tanavast, Ruin took Ati, and Preservation took Leras.

I always thought of this as "Tanavast took Honor, Ati took Ruin, Leras took Preservation", but this is besides the point.

 

3 hours ago, The Watcher said:

And how does this force know to create people with 2 arms and 2 legs, unless it had a base to copy?

This is a difficult one to handle because it cuts very close to Brandon's religious roots, which are quite different from mine. There are multiple answers here. One is in line with what on Earth would be the literal reading of the Bible, where the seven days it took Yahweh to create the world are really treated as seven 24-hour blocks of time, and the creation of humans is treated as the actual act of "making" separate from that of other acts of "making"... 

 

 But to my knowledge, a lot of Christians these days subscribe to a somewhat less literal interpretation of the Creation process, in which the seven days are geological epochs during which the world develops from some God-inspired event. The act of creation of humans in this case is actually through evolution, but with the caveat that the evolution was guided by some outside force (Yahweh). 

 

Ditto Cosmere. The way life was created on Scadrial appears to be more in line with the literal interpretation of the first page of the Bible.  This does not however, have to be the case for pre-Shattering life. We do not know the Cosmere timeline prior to the Shattering, but Adonalsium could've "created" life by instigating the events that lead to the evolutionary development of life on multiple planets of Cosmere.  There is enough evidence on Roshar of evolution (survival of the fittest, adaptation, etc) in the pre-human times. So "Adonalsium created life", until there is a WoB stating otherwise, is consistent with the idea that Adonalsium simply started the evolutionary processes on Yolen and other planets.

Having said this, your actual conjecture:

 

3 hours ago, The Watcher said:

. I propose that Adonalsium itself had a Vessel,

 

appears to be reasonable. In fact, for reasons that are completely different, I think that Adonalsium did have a Vessel, at least at the time of the Shattering and that Adonalsium's Vessel was killed in the Shattering.  What I do not know though is whether Adonalsium only had one Vessel ever, or whether different Vessels took Adonalsium.

 

There is also a problem of the initial Vessel: if Adonalsium created all life (no matter how we interpret this process) in Cosmere, then where did the initial Vessel for Adonalsium come from?

I personally think that there may be way to split hairs - assume that the creation process itself was initialized by a Vessel-less Adonalsium (acting as a force more so than as a being), but that at a later time, a Vessel did come take up Adonalsium.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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28 minutes ago, The Watcher said:

And to comment on the Odium splintering the Vessels. Well when Dominion was splintered the power ended up being stronger and in the hands of more people. Not likely something the very essence of Hate in the cosmere would want.

The Dor might be more combined investiture than just Dominion, but its usage is most certainly not more powerful than Dominion. In addition, the Dor has been noted to be constrained, so that its full power cannot be used against Odium. This follows Odium's goals to prevent anything with the power to contest him from rising up.

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22 minutes ago, The Watcher said:

Thank you for the information. I wasn't aware that the That Khriss from Taldain and Nazh from Threnody were from Sel.

Cut the sarcasm. You were talking about people who wanted to take Preservation:

3 hours ago, The Watcher said:

we see people of Silverlight who had traveled to Scadrial to attempt to take the power of Preservation once he had Splintered.

and those are the Ire.

Khriss and Nazh were there to observe Preservation's death, not take its power.

27 minutes ago, The Watcher said:

perhaps these two have attained the power of the Elantrians through some unknown method. This would explain their lifespan.

If they had power of Elantrians they would:

  • look like Elantrians
  • need their own pipeline to get the Dor

There are various methods of acquiring immortality or longevity in Cosmere and we only know a few.

28 minutes ago, The Watcher said:

And to the non-human Vessels, I presume you are speaking of Dominion and Devotion? Who were said to be reduced to primal powers that were controlled by the geographical landscape.

No, I'm not. I'm thinking more of Endowment since there was some speculation that Edgli is a dragon but in the light of recent revelations I'm suspecting Bavadin to be nonhuman.

32 minutes ago, The Watcher said:

And to comment on the Odium splintering the Vessels. Well when Dominion was splintered the power ended up being stronger and in the hands of more people. Not likely something the very essence of Hate in the cosmere would want.

Would you mind explaining how it got stronger when Skai got killed?

Odium doesn't care about some plucky little human magic users, he cares about someone with power to rival his own. A whole Shard in other words.

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42 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

The Dor might be more combined investiture than just Dominion, but its usage is most certainly not more powerful than Dominion. In addition, the Dor has been noted to be constrained, so that its full power cannot be used against Odium. This follows Odium's goals to prevent anything with the power to contest him from rising up.

The Full power of Odium has been attacking Roshar for 4500 years, humans had the initial help from Honor. Sprens and Stormlight were both excellent tools for them to use, because of them they have survived the Desolations caused by Odium. Now that Tanavast has splintered he instructed the Stormfather to raise up a champion. Which implies that Honors believes there is a chance that Odium will fall to a human wielding only a little bit of his power. This doesn't make sense to me because the powers would be greatly tipped towards Odium. But we forget that Cultivation is still there. I believe that humans, with the intervention of Shards, can stand up to Odium. They just need a benevolent Shard who is willing to help. So the Dor, the complete Primal Power of Dominion as was said in the introduction to Emperors Soul: Arcanum Unbounded, wielded by Humans could potentially stand up to Odium. Provided they obtain help, and as Oversleep says above Elantrians could possibly WorldHop through unknown methods. He proposed that they were attempting to steal the power of Preservation, which would help them rid Sel of the Odium problem there.

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47 minutes ago, Oversleep said:

Cut the sarcasm. You were talking about people who wanted to take Preservation:

and those are the Ire.

Khriss and Nazh were there to observe Preservation's death, not take its power.

If they had power of Elantrians they would:

  • look like Elantrians
  • need their own pipeline to get the Dor

There are various methods of acquiring immortality or longevity in Cosmere and we only know a few.

No, I'm not. I'm thinking more of Endowment since there was some speculation that Edgli is a dragon but in the light of recent revelations I'm suspecting Bavadin to be nonhuman.

Would you mind explaining how it got stronger when Skai got killed?

Odium doesn't care about some plucky little human magic users, he cares about someone with power to rival his own. A whole Shard in other words.

When Kelsier confronts Khriss and Nazh, they say they were there only to witness his death. I'm sorry you were right, I thought that they said they were there to steal the Shard. As to the little magic users my question is why hasn't already just wiped them all the Rosharians? Is it because of Cultivation? And why does the Stormfathers visions, the ones that Tanavast ordered him show in case of Odium killing him, say to choose a Champion if they are doomed? It seems Tanavast had some hope that perhaps a Champion would stand up to the Shard power of Odium, so why would he have hope if humans couldn't possibly stand up to the power of Odium? Maybe there is something we are missing. 

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1 hour ago, The Watcher said:

He proposed that they were attempting to steal the power of Preservation, which would help them rid Sel of the Odium problem there.

There isn't an Odium problem on Sel. Nothing of Odium is currently on Sel.

Anyhow, what you're missing is that Honor's champion would not beat Odium, they would beat Odium's champion. The champion is not stronger than Odium, they would be stronger than Odium's champion. You probably need to reread that passage. The long and short of it is that Honor is telling them that if they can make Odium think that he may lose in this Desolation, as he had many times before in the previous Desolations, he may choose to appoint a champion instead. In that case, someone would become Honor's champion and the two would fight, the winner dictating the winner of the fight between the shards. Honor is saying that they're doomed unless they make this happen, since there's no other way to defeat Odium. I imagine that there is some sort of system in place, created by Honor's power which would enforce the meaning of the fight between champions. 

1 hour ago, The Watcher said:

As to the little magic users my question is why hasn't already just wiped them all the Rosharians?

Probably because his power is constrained by the same force which is keeping him bound to the system. 

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1 hour ago, Spoolofwhool said:

There isn't an Odium problem on Sel. Nothing of Odium is currently on Sel.

Anyhow, what you're missing is that Honor's champion would not beat Odium, they would beat Odium's champion. The champion is not stronger than Odium, they would be stronger than Odium's champion. You probably need to reread that passage. The long and short of it is that Honor is telling them that if they can make Odium think that he may lose in this Desolation, as he had many times before in the previous Desolations, he may choose to appoint a champion instead. In that case, someone would become Honor's champion and the two would fight, the winner dictating the winner of the fight between the shards. Honor is saying that they're doomed unless they make this happen, since there's no other way to defeat Odium. I imagine that there is some sort of system in place, created by Honor's power which would enforce the meaning of the fight between champions. 

Probably because his power is constrained by the same force which is keeping him bound to the system. 

If the powers of Dominion and Devotion have splintered, then Odiums influence is likely there now. He wouldn't just leave a system like that all by itself. Unless he wanted it to crumble to the powers of the Dor. But this is just speculation and I'm going to use an analogy: it doesn't make sense for someone to kill a dragon and not take its gold, (unless you've watched/read the hobbit) In my opinion he would influence the land towards "Hate" then leave it under his influence. Humans are stubborn and stick to ideals, and if Hate is the ideal then Humans may get stuck in it. We may be seeing some of this influence in the religion of Shu- Dereth but I'd have to re- analyze Hrathen in Elantris to see for certain. Also to Odiums Champion, first he has to believe he could lose and that a Champion is the only way. Which if if humans were just "plucky little magic users" then that in itself would be impossible. There is something to fear in the Knights Radiant, something that opposes Odium enough that he believes he could still possibly lose. He knows that he Splintered Tanavast, so he shouldn't fear the humans at all. Unless you count Cultivation, but we really haven't seen all that much of her. So even though HOnor is Splintered, Tanavast was certain that Odium would be afraid of something. But what? Maybe, and this is just an idea, Humans who have the capacity to hold the Shard of Honor (I know its Splintered but hear me out) could draw in its power. Similar to how Vin drew in the mists, Preservation's, power once in the First Mistborn series. If only for a little while, that power could be the tipping point for the Champion of Honor.

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40 minutes ago, The Watcher said:

If the powers of Dominion and Devotion have splintered, then Odiums influence is likely there now. He wouldn't just leave a system like that all by itself.

Welcome to the forums!  It seems like you're newer here.  Some of your thoughts hit on the big questions we're all wondering about too, but it maybe helpful to read around the forums a little bit to get some perspective on these things.

Odium is not invested on Sel, so it's very unlikely that the evil forces there (i.e. Jaddeth and the skaze, also the svrakiss) are of his investiture directly.  It does seem like they should be, but the evidence supports otherwise at this point.

Quote

So the Dor, the complete Primal Power of Dominion as was said in the introduction to Emperors Soul: Arcanum Unbounded, wielded by Humans could potentially stand up to Odium.

The Dor is a combination of the splintered power of both Dominion and Devotion, currently stuck in the Cognitive Realm.  Could you give the exact quote that leads you to think it's anything but this?

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4 hours ago, The Watcher said:

Now that Tanavast has splintered he instructed the Stormfather to raise up a champion. Which implies that Honors believes there is a chance that Odium will fall to a human wielding only a little bit of his power

You do not know what Tanavast had in mind. In past Desolations, the key task, as far as Honor was concerned was not to kill Rayse or Splinter Odium, but to defeat Voidbringers and rebuild the world so that it could be ready for the next Desolation.  The task of the "Champion" can be exactly that: defeat Voidbringers, rebuild after the Desolation. No need to kill Odium - this did not appear to have been the goal in the previous Desolations, and this does not appear to be how Honor operates. (Cultivation though...)

 

4 hours ago, The Watcher said:

They just need a benevolent Shard who is willing to help. So the Dor, the complete Primal Power of Dominion

Very carefully.... Dor is NOT a Shard. Neither is Dor "benevolent" in ANY sense of this word.

 

Imagine all Investiture in Cosmere colored in 16 different colors representing the 16 Shards. Dor is essentially all the Investiture colored in the colors of Dominion and Devotion. It is two Shards worth of Investiture cooped up in the Cognitive Realm of Sel.  It does not have a mind. It has some splinters that achieve some form of sapience, but those splinters are tiny compared to the overall size of Dor.

 

More importantly:

4 hours ago, The Watcher said:

 Elantrians could possibly WorldHop through unknown methods.

Worldhopping Elantrians saving Roshar is a deus ex machina and will not be a thing in the Stormlight Archive. 

 

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51 minutes ago, The Watcher said:

We may be seeing some of this influence in the religion of Shu- Dereth but I'd have to re- analyze Hrathen in Elantris to see for certain

You are making a very simplistic assumption that Odium must be responsible for all actions that can be perceived as evil in Cosmere.  Well, not so.

 

Skai/Dominion based on what little we know of them are far from being all about fluffy bunnies and drinking tea in the afternoon. Shu-Dereth and Shu-Korath are representations of the path of Dominion and the path of Devotion in religious form. The entirety of Elantris points to Shu-Dereth's key principles being subjugation, obedience, hierarchical structure of power and possession of territory. This is textbook Intent of Dominion (as Splintered as the Shard itself is, its Intent is preserved in Shu-Dereth).   

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1 hour ago, The Watcher said:

If the powers of Dominion and Devotion have splintered, then Odiums influence is likely there now. He wouldn't just leave a system like that all by itself. Unless he wanted it to crumble to the powers of the Dor. But this is just speculation and I'm going to use an analogy: it doesn't make sense for someone to kill a dragon and not take its gold, (unless you've watched/read the hobbit) In my opinion he would influence the land towards "Hate" then leave it under his influence. Humans are stubborn and stick to ideals, and if Hate is the ideal then Humans may get stuck in it. We may be seeing some of this influence in the religion of Shu- Dereth but I'd have to re- analyze Hrathen in Elantris to see for certain.

We have WoB that Odium has left no power behind on Sel. An analysis of his motivations would indicate that as well; Odium, or rather Rayse influenced by Odium, wants to become the most powerful being in the Cosmere. Leaving behind his power on another world would be counter-active.

1 hour ago, The Watcher said:

Also to Odiums Champion, first he has to believe he could lose and that a Champion is the only way. Which if if humans were just "plucky little magic users" then that in itself would be impossible. There is something to fear in the Knights Radiant, something that opposes Odium enough that he believes he could still possibly lose. He knows that he Splintered Tanavast, so he shouldn't fear the humans at all. Unless you count Cultivation, but we really haven't seen all that much of her. So even though HOnor is Splintered, Tanavast was certain that Odium would be afraid of something. But what? Maybe, and this is just an idea, Humans who have the capacity to hold the Shard of Honor (I know its Splintered but hear me out) could draw in its power. Similar to how Vin drew in the mists, Preservation's, power once in the First Mistborn series. If only for a little while, that power could be the tipping point for the Champion of Honor.

My opinion is that the Desolations occurred and continue to occur because Odium is trying to leave the Roshar system by breaking that which binds him there. While the Knight Radiants and other human forces wouldn't directly cause Odium to lose, by defeating the voidbringers, the force he has arrayed to break his bonds, he would still effectively lose personally. This is because he desires to be uncontested in the Cosmere, the most powerful being. Trapped in the Greater Rosharan System, unable to do anything else while Harmony gains his power and other shards of equal strength are free to move as they will is loss for him. So yes, it is possible for them to convince him he can lose without a new holder of Honor appearing, by doing what they have done in the past, survive a Desolation and defeat the voidbringers. Once again, as I said above, Honor's champion is in no way going to face Odium directly, only his champion. The power of the shard will not be necessary. Personally, I don't think the story is going to end with someone else drawing upon Honor's power and ascending to save the day, because Brandon has already done that in Mistborn. Also, it is unlikely he's going to end it with a major element from another story because I believe I have read somewhere that he wishes SA to be largely self-contained; you don't need to read other books to understand the major and minor story elements. 

Edited by Spoolofwhool
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On 1/7/2017 at 0:34 PM, The Watcher said:

Adonalsium itself had a Vessel

To everyone on this thread, make of this old confirmation statement as you will... again.

There's a physical picture of the book inscription near the bottom of the page. I feel that it implies he had a host vessel, but that's just my opinion.

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43 minutes ago, Oversleep said:

I feel it's less "Adonalsium had the Vessel" as we understand it with the Shards and their Vessels; I think that in his case the host and power were one and the same, indistinguishable.

If I understand that right, you are thinking that since Investiture will become sentient if it spends enough time on its own, he has a "vessel" for the sole purpose of consolidating all of his power in one place, rather than a physical person ascending to extreme power.

Maybe that's just my interpretation

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