Bronze Mastery Theory

[Faceless Mist-Wraith he/him]

Here's something I came up with while thinking about other uses for Bronze and Copper. I remembered how when Marsh was talking to Vin he described what mastery of Bronze allow you do, namely: sense how much metal they have left, when they are flaring, what emotions a soother/rioter is effecting, and whom. This last one was the one that interested me, since it essentially means a Seeker can, with enough training/skill, sense where a misting is directing their powers.

I then wondered whether this was strictly limited to brass and zinc, or if it could be used towards other metals. Which leads to my theory: That a Seeker can, with enough practice/training, sense metals that are being Pushed or Pulled on. This would essentially give the Seeker steel-sight as long as a misting is Pushing or Pulling on a metal. 

I had a tangent based on this theory that a Seeker would have pseudo-atium against Coinshots or Lurchers, but I digress.

Is this a reasonable theory? Let me know what you think.

[Yata he/him]

I don't think they may...Because the Seeker would need to obtain informations about the target not the source...Therefore they may understand that an Allomancer are Rioting lust but not who is the target of the Rioting.

Also if the Seeker may "feel the target" you will not have the ful Steelsight effect, you will not "sense" every pieces of metal the Misting see, only the one he is actually push/pull and only if he keeps influence it.

But again I think it's impossible for the first reason, A Seeker feels the source not the target

Edited December 27, 2016 by Yata

[The One Who Connects he/him]

23 minutes ago, Yata said:

But again I think it's impossible for the first reason, A Seeker feels the source not the target

I agree with what you say Yata, but wish to add something to this line.

I believe that when Marsh mentioned sensing what emotions they are affecting, (as the OP brought up) he was saying it to Vin as a reason not to just use Copper to avoid being affected. Meaning that he implies that you can tell what emotions the Soother/Rioter is affecting when they are trying to affect You. It's a minor change to the point, but in essence, it changes the whole story of what you can do as a Seeker.

[Faceless Mist-Wraith he/him]

30 minutes ago, Yata said:

But again I think it's impossible for the first reason, A Seeker feels the source not the target

I am aware of the fact that Seeker's sense the source of Allomancy, but I was certain that during WoA Vin used Bronze to see who Breeze was Soothing, which seemed to suggest that a Seeker can sense what an Allomancer is affecting, as long as they are actively doing so. I will try to find the exact quote.

[+robardin he/him]

2 hours ago, Faceless Mist-Wraith said:

I am aware of the fact that Seeker's sense the source of Allomancy, but I was certain that during WoA Vin used Bronze to see who Breeze was Soothing, which seemed to suggest that a Seeker can sense what an Allomancer is affecting, as long as they are actively doing so. I will try to find the exact quote.

I think it was more that it was obvious who the target was, once she realized the type of emotion being manipulated. Was it her realizing that Allriane was a Rioter, based on how she was twiddling (of all people) Breeze? (who clearly deserved it).

EDIT: yeah, this was actually a great scene in WoA. From Chapter 36:

Quote

Breeze snapped his eyes open. Allrianne stood at the entrance to the room, just at the edge of the table. She wore light blue; where had she gotten so many dresses? Her makeup was, of course immaculate - and there was a bow in her hair. That long blond hair - common in the West but almost unheard of in the Central Dominance - and that perky, inviting figure.

Desire immediately blossomed inside of him. No! Breeze thought. She's half your age. You're a dirty old man. Dirty! "Allrianne," he said uncomfortably, "shouldn't you be in bed or something?"

...

"Well," Vin said quietly, "that answers one question."

"Mistress?" OreSeur said, sitting across the table from her in the dark room. With her Allomancer's ears, she could hear exactly what was going on in the next boothlike room over.

"Allriane is an Allomancer," Vin said.

"Really?"

Vin nodded. "She's been Rioting Breeze's emotions ever since she arrived, making him more attracted to her." ... "Breeze probably just doesn't think his emotions are unnatural," Vin said. "He must be attracted to her already."

 

Edited December 27, 2016 by robardin
added relevant quote from WoA

[Faceless Mist-Wraith he/him]

Found it! I was referring to something that happened earlier:

From Chapter 20 (emphasis by me)

Quote

     This in mind, she tentatively burned bronze. Immediately, she sensed an Allomantic pulse from Breeze - dear, incorrigible Breeze. He was so good at Allomancy that even Vin couldn't detect his touch most of the time, but he was also compulsive about using his power.

     He wasn't currently using it on her, however. She closed her eyes, focusing. Once, long ago, Marsh had tried to train her in the fine art of using bronze to read Allomantic pulses. She hadn't realized at the time just how large a task he'd begun.

     When an Allomancer burned a metal, they gave off an invisible, drumlike beat that only another Allomancer burning bronze could sense. The rhythm of these pulses - how quickly the beats came, the way they "sounded" - told exactly what metal was being burned.

     It took practice, and was difficult, but Vin was getting better at reading the pulses. She focused. Breeze was burning brass - the internal, mental Pushing metal. And...

     Vin focused harder. She could feel a pattern washing over her, a double dum-dum beat with each pulse. They felt oriented to her right. The pulses were washing against something else, something that was sucking them in.

     Elend. Breeze was focused on Elend. 

In the text Vin senses the direction Breeze is directing his power, and does so with her eyes closed. True, she likely figured out who it was due to remembering how everyone was oriented before she closed her eyes, but I believe that this still shows a Seeker can, at the very least, sense the direction of Soothing/Rioting.

From there it seems logical that a Seeker could also discern which metal a Coinshot/Lurcher is Pushing/Pulling (while it is being Pushed/Pulled) if they did the necessary training. My thinking was that if the Seeker could then get enough control to sense the exact distance between themselves and whatever is being affected, they could presumably dodge coins or other bits of metal that were being Pushed/Pulled towards them. Admittedly, this ability would be dependent on the Coinshot or Lurcher giving the object a constant push/pull.

 

Edited December 27, 2016 by Faceless Mist-Wraith

[+robardin he/him]

1 hour ago, Faceless Mist-Wraith said:

Found it! I was referring to something that happened earlier:

From Chapter 20 (emphasis by me)

In the text Vin senses the direction Breeze is directing his power, and does so with her eyes closed. True, she likely figured out who it was due to remembering how everyone was oriented before she closed her eyes, but I believe that this still shows a Seeker can, at the very least, sense the direction of Soothing/Rioting.

From there it seems logical that a Seeker could also discern which metal a Coinshot/Lurcher is Pushing/Pulling (while it is being Pushed/Pulled) if they did the necessary training. My thinking was that if the Seeker could then get enough control to sense the exact distance between themselves and whatever is being affected, they could presumably dodge coins or other bits of metal that were being Pushed/Pulled towards them. Admittedly, this ability would be dependent on the Coinshot or Lurcher giving the object a constant push/pull.

 

I agree that a skilled Seeker could tell who was the target of emotional Allomancy and, possibly, what type of emotion was being targeted (Marsh himself said as much in the first book). But isn't it already a somewhat rare thing for a Coinshot or Lurcher to be sensitive enough to the "feel" of the metal lines to be able to discern the composition of the metal (only Ranette has been mentioned as having that particular talent)? For a Seeker to feel that "through" the Coinshot/Lurcher, a second order sensitivity, seems unlikely.

[CalaCrisp88]

I don't think a Seeker would have enough information to sense metals that are being pushed. If he senses a Coinshot Pushing really hard, he could probably expect a small object coming quickly or a large object coming slowly. Maybe based on how far the Coinshot gets pushed back or whether the Coinshot Pushes on an anchor behind him, the Seeker could get a better estimate of the size and/or speed of the metal projectile. I doubt the abilities would go much beyond that though. A Seeker would never truly be able to see metals being Pushed or Pulled, just as Vin couldn't actually see Elend receiving the effect of Breeze's Soothing. She could only discern the direction of the Soothing, which was toward Elend.

[Faceless Mist-Wraith he/him]

53 minutes ago, 8giraffe8 said:

 

I don't think a Seeker would have enough information to sense metals that are being pushed. If he senses a Coinshot Pushing really hard, he could probably expect a small object coming quickly or a large object coming slowly. Maybe based on how far the Coinshot gets pushed back or whether the Coinshot Pushes on an anchor behind him, the Seeker could get a better estimate of the size and/or speed of the metal projectile. I doubt the abilities would go much beyond that though. A Seeker would never truly be able to see metals being Pushed or Pulled, just as Vin couldn't actually see Elend receiving the effect of Breeze's Soothing. She could only discern the direction of the Soothing, which was toward Elend.

 

I agree that a Seeker would never be able to actually see/sense metals. My thoughts were that they would be able to tell where a misting is concentrating their power, and use this location to avoid incoming metal, since this would be where a Coinshot would be pushing. Essentially a Seeker would think: "I can sense the Coinshot is pushing on something 10ft away. Whatever he's pushing on is getting closer, I should duck...now." That's how I imagined it at least.

As for Vin not being able to see Elend receiving Breeze's Soothing, I assumed that this was shown by her description of "something" sucking in the pulses.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

13 hours ago, Faceless Mist-Wraith said:

Essentially a Seeker would think: "I can sense the Coinshot is pushing on something 10ft away. Whatever he's pushing on is getting closer, I should duck...now." That's how I imagined it at least.

With coins (or that iron paperweight Kelsier used against the Hazekillers) I don't think you would register the push in time to dodge it any better than if you saw the Coinshot launch it.

You'd have to make the connections that the pulses you "hear" are steel/iron, "feel" that the pulses are going towards you, "sense" that what is absorbing the pulses is getting closer, it just seems like to much to mentally connect in the heat of battle unless you are quite calm or very well practiced.

We have example of people doing all 3 of these things, albeit either not all at once or in a calm situation. So it is technically doable, I just believe that it would take a large amount of practice to hone this technique enough to become an adequate survival tool

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

Bronze + F Zinc?

[Faceless Mist-Wraith he/him]

On December 28, 2016 at 2:05 PM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

 

Bronze + F Zinc?

 

That could probably work, since they could use f-zinc to quickly analyze the information. Otherwise it may be similar to electrum, where you would have to train yourself to react quickly.

[Yata he/him]

3 hours ago, Faceless Mist-Wraith said:

That could probably work, since they could use f-zinc to quickly analyze the information. Otherwise it may be similar to electrum, where you would have to train yourself to react quickly.

With the Electrum you have a more direct feed than what you could get from the Bronze. It's more fast to react to an image than a feel you had to hardly decipher before (if this is possible at all)

[CalaCrisp88]

With things like Allomantic Atium and Electrum, your mind is expanded so that you can react and process that information while burning it. Same idea with Feruchemical Steel, and I think Sand Mastery as well. Otherwise, while tapping steel, you would run so fast that you wouldn't even realize there was a wall in front of you. It should give you enough mental capacity to avoid a wall before you hit it. With Feruchemical Zinc, its effectiveness would depend on how much you're tapping at a time. It has the potential to be both more and less effective than the reflexes offered as a by-product of simply burning atium and electrum.

[Yata he/him]

4 hours ago, 8giraffe8 said:

With things like Allomantic Atium and Electrum, your mind is expanded so that you can react and process that information while burning it. 

Actually the Electrum doesn't provide any mind expansion or it would be as good as the Atium (while he is considerate "poormen's Atium" for a reason)