The Spiritual Realm, a way to see the past

[Thanatos]

It seems access to the Spiritual Realm can see into the past:

Quote

"“I saw something,” Kelsier said, “as the Lord Ruler killed me. The person as he might once have been. His past? A version of his past? He stood at the Well of Ascension.”

"Did you? Hmm. Yes, the metal, flared during the moment of transition. You got a glimpse of the Spiritual Realm, then? His Connection and his past? You were using Ati’s essence, unfortunately. One shouldn’t trust it, even in a diluted form. Except . . .” He frowned, cocking his head, as if trying to remember something he’d forgotten....

It seems here accessing the SR gives the ability to see the past. 

Whats your thoughts.

Also it seems the 11th metal is of Ruin. What others?

What would happen if Kelsier was burning Electrum? Would he see the future? A true future? Or would that take Durilium plus Electrum?

Edited December 26, 2016 by Thanatos

[A Budgie]

22 minutes ago, Thanatos said:

Whats your thoughts.

*What's your thoughts?

Sorry, but I felt the need to do that. Anyway...I don't think the metal is of Ruin? Atium is 'of Ruin,' I suppose, being like his physical body, but none of the other metals are I don't think.

[Thanatos]

All good.

Kel was only burning the 11th metal at the time of his death. 

Preservation was referring to this metal in explaining why Kel could see TLR's past.  And said: 

Quote

"Did you? Hmm. Yes, the metal, flared during the moment of transition. You got a glimpse of the Spiritual Realm, then? His Connection and his past? You were using Ati’s essence, unfortunately. 

This means the 11th metal was of Ati/Ruin.

How could it not?

[Spoolofwhool]

He was burning malatium, which is an alloy of atium and gold. Creates a connection to other people, allowing you a limited view of possible alternative thems.

Anyhow, electrum. Using electrum to connect to the spiritual realm, by either burning on death or using duralumin could possibly result in a similar effect which happened Elend when he duralumin burned atium. However, I stress that it should be noted that in Elend's and Kelsier's case they were drawing directly on the power of Ruin within the metal, possibly greater amount of investiture than an allomancer normally possesses when they burn normal metals, and additionally electrum would give you the power of Preservation, which is apparently not as temporally-related. As such, I doubt that one would really be afforded much of a view into the future. 

 

[Yata]

8 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Anyhow, electrum. Using electrum to connect to the spiritual realm, by either burning on death or using duralumin could possibly result in a similar effect which happened Elend when he duralumin burned atium. However, I stress that it should be noted that in Elend's and Kelsier's case they were drawing directly on the power of Ruin within the metal, possibly greater amount of investiture than an allomancer normally possesses when they burn normal metals, and additionally electrum would give you the power of Preservation, which is apparently not as temporally-related. As such, I doubt that one would really be afforded much of a view into the future. 

This is an interesting point, I actually never considerated this. This may mean that flaring Gold in the moment of death could start a "In the moment of Death, I see my own life" and as you said with the Electrum an hypotetical own future (but you are going to die in seconds, therefore a really short future).

Anyway @Thanatos as Spoolofwhool said the "11th metal" is Malation, the only Godmetal Alloy showed on Screen until now. It is part of the Set of metals compatible with the Metallic Arts obtainable with an Alloy of GodMetal+MundaneAllomanticMetal, in this case Atium+Gold.

[Thanatos]

No the only God metals are Lerasium and Atium!

So gold may be of Ruin. Otherwise why is it Ati's connection'? 

Or its an Uncle Andy metal. Which i truly believe.

Or maybe a metal mixed between Preservation and Ruin gives the god manipulation of the user. 

In this case Ati wins, as Leras was diminished at this point. 

In any event, Preservation said the 'metal Kel burnt' was of Ati. So im thinking both are of Ati, or of Ati and Uncle Andy.

Edited December 26, 2016 by Thanatos

[lidrevan]

It's a God metal alloy. So gold and atium.

 

[BlackYeti]

1 hour ago, Thanatos said:

No the only God metals are Lerasium and Atium!

So gold may be of Ruin. Otherwise why is it Ati's connection'? 

Or its an Uncle Andy metal. Which i truly believe.

Or maybe a metal mixed between Preservation and Ruin gives the god manipulation of the user. 

In this case Ati wins, as Leras was diminished at this point. 

In any event, Preservation said the 'metal Kel burnt' was of Ati. So im thinking both are of Ati, or of Ati and Uncle Andy.

Gold is not of Ruin. Nor is it of Preservation, or any of the other Shards: it is one of the base 16 metals. Like all of the base metals, it acts as a focus only, opening a specific conduit to Preservation which provides the Investiture for the Allomancer to use.

As @Spoolofwhool, @Yata, and now @lidrevan have said, the eleventh metal, malatium, is an alloy of atium and gold. This means that the metal itself is Invested and is powering the Allomancy itself, however unlike a pure god metal the presence of a base metal means that the power is being filtered differently than it would be if it were pure atium. So it is being powered by Ruin, and only Ruin here, and just as the Allomancy from any base metal is powered by Preservation only, but based on the metal provides different effects, the effect here is different from pure atium (and different from any other atium alloy as well).

And yes that does mean that there are 16 possible alloys for every possible god metal (not counting the potential for alloying the different god metals with each other).

Edited December 26, 2016 by BlackYeti

[Smye]

8 hours ago, A Budgie said:

*What's your thoughts?

Sorry, but I felt the need to do that. Anyway...I don't think the metal is of Ruin? Atium is 'of Ruin,' I suppose, being like his physical body, but none of the other metals are I don't think.

*What're

[Spoolofwhool]

5 hours ago, BlackYeti said:

Gold is not of Ruin. Nor is it of Preservation, or any of the other Shards: it is one of the base 16 metals. Like all of the base metals, it acts as a focus only, opening a specific conduit to Preservation which provides the Investiture for the Allomancer to use.

As @Spoolofwhool, @Yata, and now @lidrevan have said, the eleventh metal, malatium, is an alloy of atium and gold. This means that the metal itself is Invested and is powering the Allomancy itself, however unlike a pure god metal the presence of a base metal means that the power is being filtered differently than it would be if it were pure atium. So it is being powered by Ruin, and only Ruin here, and just as the Allomancy from any base metal is powered by Preservation only, but based on the metal provides different effects, the effect here is different from pure atium (and different from any other atium alloy as well).

Actually no. All Scadrian base metals are of both Ruin and Preservation since they were made using their investiture when they created Scadrial. In the same regard, atium is made from investiture, but is not invested. The investiture composing it has directly become physical matter, whereas with invested objects the investiture remains investiture. Burning atium converts the physical object back into investiture, and that investiture is then used to power the allomancy instead of Preservation's which is the norm.

[Yata]

7 hours ago, Thanatos said:

No the only God metals are Lerasium and Atium!

So gold may be of Ruin. Otherwise why is it Ati's connection'? 

Like I said the Malatium (the eleventh metal) is an alloy of Atium and Gold.

Every Godmetal may form alloys with the others 16 standard metals In the end every godmetal may give birth to a set of 16 Alloys with Allomantic, Feruchemical and Hemalurgic abilities) , for the Atium we know only the Allomantical effect of Malatium (as showed on Screen), while for the Lerasium we know the Allomantic effects of all his alloys (with WoB no showed on screen). The Lerasium's Alloys may be burn by everyone and turn the subject into a Misting of the metal in alloy with Lerasium (probably with as poweful as a Lerasium Mistborn in that metal)

EDIT: I wrote this post without refresh the page, therefore I didn't see the answers between this and the quoted message, sorry

Edited December 26, 2016 by Yata

[VirtuousTraveller]

14 minutes ago, Yata said:

Every Godmetal may form alloys with the others 16 standard metals In the end every godmetal may give birth to a set of 16 Alloys with Allomantic, Feruchemical and Hemalurgic abilities) , for the Atium we know only the Allomantical effect of Malatium (as showed on Screen), while for the Lerasium we know the Allomantic effects of all his alloys (with WoB no showed on screen). The Lerasium's Alloys may be burn by everyone and turn the subject into a Misting of the metal in alloy with Lerasium (probably with as poweful as a Lerasium Mistborn in that metal)

I didn't realize that the alloys of Lerasium had this function!  So any Lerasium alloy turns a person into a Misting of the metal it's mixed with?  Where could I find this WoB that says this?

[Yata]

2 minutes ago, VirtuousTraveller said:

I didn't realize that the alloys of Lerasium had this function!  So any Lerasium alloy turns a person into a Misting of the metal it's mixed with?  Where could I find this WoB that says this?

For now I could only find this two WoB:

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CHAOS (15 OCTOBER 2008)

I really want to know what the last two metals are. I always thought the bead Elend ate was one of them, but perhaps they are just things of Preservation, not meant to be understood.

BRANDON SANDERSON (15 OCTOBER 2008)

The metal chunk that Elend ate is intended to be something of a mystery. Much like atium, actually. Suffice it to say that atium isn't, and never was, what people thought it was.

I intended Allomancy to be much like a real science. People investigate and put things into boxes, trying to describe and understand the world around them. That doesn't mean they always get things right, however.

Let me say this, as I don't want to spoil too much. If that metal Elend ate were fused into specific alloys with certain metals, it could have instead created Mistings of each of the different Allomantic powers. Atium's abilities are not entirely explored yet either

and 

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THE_ARCHDUKE

Could you become a double misting if you took two lerasium/metal alloy beads (I think the example was iron and steel) at the same time?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes

They are quite explicit, I hope it's enough for your curiosity

PS: This would mean that it's possible to create a Atium Misting with an Atium+Lerasium Alloy...But Brandon on this matter says that there are two possible outcome for this combination

[BlackYeti]

20 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Actually no. All Scadrian base metals are of both Ruin and Preservation since they were made using their investiture when they created Scadrial. In the same regard, atium is made from investiture, but is not invested. The investiture composing it has directly become physical matter, whereas with invested objects the investiture remains investiture. Burning atium converts the physical object back into investiture, and that investiture is then used to power the allomancy instead of Preservation's which is the norm.

That is Scadrian metal specifically, I was referring to metals generally, since Allomancy is not restricted to Scadrian metal. The point that I was making in any event was that unlike the god metals, it isn't physical Investiture. 

Also I wasn't talking about atium, but malatium, which contains physical Investiture in the form of atium, but is not itself pure Investiture. Consider Nightblood: it contains 1000 Breaths and is often referred to as being Invested. Yet Breath is also physical Investiture, albeit in a gaseous rather than solid state, so if it is incorrect to refer to malatium as Invested, then it follows that it would also be incorrect as well to describe Nightblood as being Invested.

[Spoolofwhool]

1 hour ago, BlackYeti said:

That is Scadrian metal specifically, I was referring to metals generally, since Allomancy is not restricted to Scadrian metal. The point that I was making in any event was that unlike the god metals, it isn't physical Investiture. 

Also I wasn't talking about atium, but malatium, which contains physical Investiture in the form of atium, but is not itself pure Investiture. Consider Nightblood: it contains 1000 Breaths and is often referred to as being Invested. Yet Breath is also physical Investiture, albeit in a gaseous rather than solid state, so if it is incorrect to refer to malatium as Invested, then it follows that it would also be incorrect as well to describe Nightblood as being Invested.

Not really, because the way I see it, once breath is within an object, like stormlight, it transitions back into a more spiritual form connected to the object, so it's no longer investiture in physical form like atium, but just spiritual investiture used to fuel manifestations of investiture and other magics. The thing to note too, is that Nightblood has been described as invested, able to resist the influence of other investiture because of interference. However, we have not seen this effect with atium, as it can be easily pushed using allomancy, and and can used as a feruchemical metalmind. This indicates to me that atium is not invested, just physically manifested investiture.

[BlackYeti]

9 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Not really, because the way I see it, once breath is within an object, like stormlight, it transitions back into a more spiritual form connected to the object, so it's no longer investiture in physical form like atium, but just spiritual investiture used to fuel manifestations of investiture and other magics. The thing to note too, is that Nightblood has been described as invested, able to resist the influence of other investiture because of interference. However, we have not seen this effect with atium, as it can be easily pushed using allomancy, and and can used as a feruchemical metalmind. This indicates to me that atium is not invested, just physically manifested investiture.

We'll have to agree to disagree here then, because I don't want to hijack this thread discussing this. If you want to debate this further, feel free to PM me.

The point that I was trying to make was that only the god metals and their alloys power Allomancy themselves, the base metals do not; I wasn't trying to make a statement on what precisely it means for something to be Invested.

[Thanatos]

Spoolofwhool

I see your point that all metals on Scadrial is of Preservation and Ruin. As they created the whole world.

I also agree with the alloy points.

...

Just woke up and hungover so ill come back later today. 

Also i dont mind if the thread goes off track alittle. It happens 

[cometaryorbit]

On 12/26/2016 at 2:06 AM, Thanatos said:

It seems here accessing the SR gives the ability to see the past. 

Yes, because time and space don't really apply in the Spiritual. Atium allows the user to see the immediate future by a glimpse just barely into the Spiritual; when Elend burned Duralumin and Atium in HoA, he got a much more extensive view of the Spiritual. Similarly, Shards can see possible futures - "like a shattering mirror" or something - in the Spiritual (where they primarily exist).

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What would happen if Kelsier was burning Electrum? Would he see the future? A true future? Or would that take Durilium plus Electrum?

Well, he'd definitely see some degree of his own future just by burning Electrum. I don't think the moment of death thing would matter much here, because that's likely an "atium lets you see the Spiritual" type effect, but who knows - we really don't know the mechanics of either electrum or malatium.

Electrum plus Duralumin is also unknown. In fact, IIRC we haven't seen duralumin burned with any of the "real" (IE not atium) temporal metals. Gold and electrum are really unexplored...

[Hoids Imaginary Friend]

Wait!

Wait, wait, wait.!

So there are 16 "original" metals, and 16 x2 God Metal alloys.

Sooooo...

If Gold + Atium = Melatium. (God Metal Alloy)

Does that mean it's not of the "original" 16 metals and we're missing one?

*~ HIF ~*

[Hoids Imaginary Friend]

Also, I just had a thought that we should also consider there is a third lot of 16 God Metal Alloys based on Harmonium.

yeah?

*~ HIF ~*

[Spoolofwhool]

1 hour ago, Hoids Imaginary Friend said:

Does that mean it's not of the "original" 16 metals and we're missing one?

Yes, malatium is not one of the 16 base metals. The 16 metals are copper, bronze, iron, steel, zinc, brass, tin, pewter, cadmium, bendalloy, chromium, nicrosil, aluminum, duralumin, gold and electrum.

1 hour ago, Hoids Imaginary Friend said:

Also, I just had a thought that we should also consider there is a third lot of 16 God Metal Alloys based on Harmonium.

yeah?

*~ HIF ~*

This is also the case. 

[Hoids Imaginary Friend]

@Spoolofwhool Ahhh, thanks mate. I think Ati's influence done a number on me (Melatium being the 11th metal), though my laziness could be partly to blame and I could have done some research on the Allomantic charts

So, at this stage we know of a possible 4 x 16 Allomantic combinations: Original, Atium, Lerasium, Harmonium.

Ok, bear with me as I'm kinda musing aloud:

So the God Alloys are based off the original 16 metals: e.g. Orginal Metal + God Metal = God Alloy.

And I think there was a WoB of the God Metals making an Alloy out of each other: e.g. Atium + Lerasium = Atium Misting + ??

So that means that the God Alloys have a 17th alloy. Wait.. or 18 if you include Harmonium.

Could other God Metals like Trellium come into play on this? Could Trellium product another 16 possibilities? (not including God on God alloys)

It has been confirmed that Trellium is a God Metal, or am I imagining this?

If that's the case than...

So we add the possible combination of God Shard merges, on top of the 16 God Metal Alloys they could make..

** owwww **

I tried to calculate the possibilities, but it hurt my head.. Anyone out there enjoy Math enough to figure that out..?

Tangential Theory:

Assuming I'm correct in the above possible God Metal combo's. What if everyone born on Scadrial has the potential to become an Allomancer (Misting) but they either: Didn't Snap and / or Never had the chance as their Metal didn't exist at the time..

*~ HIF ~*

[Spoolofwhool]

16 + 5 x 16 = 96

We've also seen a metal descended from the mixture of Honor's and Cultivation's power (sprenblades) so that might be able to provide power as well. Additionally, Honorblades are probably just descended from Honor's power, so they could provide an additional power.

[Yata]

15 hours ago, Hoids Imaginary Friend said:

Tangential Theory:

Assuming I'm correct in the above possible God Metal combo's. What if everyone born on Scadrial has the potential to become an Allomancer (Misting) but they either: Didn't Snap and / or Never had the chance as their Metal didn't exist at the time..

*~ HIF ~*

Actually no, not every Scadrial Human is able to become an Allomancer....BUT there were (and are) of course guys who never discovered to be an actual misting just because they never tried.

In the Final Empire, there were Alluminium/Duralluminium/electrum/Chromium/Nicrosil/Cadmius and Bendalloy Misting amoung the popolation, but they were unable to discover it because those metal where unknown or hidden or impossible to gather