Do magic systems traverse space?

[Cosmere Chemist]

This has been bugging me for a while.

For example, Mistborn are powered by eating solid investiture (metals), but if they travelled to Sel, could they be fuelled by Sel metals? There, Elantrians access to the Dor decreases with distance from Elantris, so if they showed up on Scadrial, surely they would have to rely on scaring people with their ghostly appearance due to no access to the Dor? Also, would Rosharians need to heave massive stormlight crystals through space? Can the investiture parasites actually make mega mistborns anywhere but that world?

Cheers!

[A Budgie she/her]

I've wondered about the metal thing myself. Because of the entire thing that means that some aspects of investiture are interchangeable, some of it would sorta work. I mean, like I think it's generally accepted that Nightblood can use Stormlight instead of Breath (not sure if confirmed). I'm pretty sure that, to a certain extent, travelling to another planet with a Shard just means you sort of...adapt to be fuelled by the different magic system. Like changing a power source. I'd say a lot of this stuff is speculation, theory, and RAFO stuff though.

[Pagerunner he/him]

Welcome to the forums, and what a great question to start out with! The answer gets pretty deep into realmatics, so buckle up, 'cause this is gonna get messy. Metals themselves don't produce Investiture; they are keys to Investiture, which comes from a Shard. We do know that metals from another world are useable for Allomancy; if you're watching very carefully, you just might see it in Stormlight. Metal is an additional cost, like water is in White Sand or color is Warbreaker. The magic doesn't come from water (probably), it doesn't come from color. The magic is all drawn from the Shard behind that magic system.

Allomancy is powered by Preservation. Elantrians are powered by the Dor, a mixture of two other Shards. To gain access to a magic system, you usually need to graft a piece of that Shard's Investiture onto your soul. (Initiation is the technical term for it; in Allomancy, that takes the form of Snapping). Whenever you use that magic system, you're drawing energy from a Shard. It turns out, actually, that the Dor is the exception in this case, that it's very difficult to power when you travel off-world. We learn why in the essay for the Selish system in Arcanum Unbounded. I'll put it in spoilers below, in case you haven't read it yet.

Spoiler

Devotion and Dominion, the two Shards that comprise the Dor, have the bulk of their power in the Cognitive Realm, a.k.a. Shadesmar, which is a sort-of-reflection of the Physical Realm. Most Shards have the bulk of their power in the Spiritual Realm, something we've only seen glimpses of so far.

So, why does that make Elantrian magic weaker? Because the Spiritual Realm is not a reflection of the Physical; it's not locations and maps. It's Connections between people and things and places, and their Identities. So, how far away you are from a Shard in the Physical Realm doesn't matter in the Spiritual Realm; once you've grafted a piece of that Shard's Investiture onto your soul, you have direct access to it through the Spiritual Realm, no matter where you are in the cosmere, and you can draw on that Shard's energy. (As a side note, time also doesn't matter in the Spiritual Realm; that's one way magic users can the future, by peering into the Spiritual Realm and seeing Connections that haven't been 'made.')

But the Dor isn't in the Spiritual Realm. It's in the Cognitive Realm. Elantrians are drawing energy from one specific piece of the Dor, the piece near Arelon (the part of the land that Aons reflect). When they go farther away from Arelon, they incur more and more 'transmission losses' trying to pull that Investiture through the Cognitive Realm to get it wherever they are.

So, if a Mistborn goes to Sel and burns a metal from Sel, they are consuming a piece of Selish matter to activate their Spiritual Connection to Preservation, letting them draw on Preservation's energy to power their Allomancy in a specific way. (Ultimately, this energy will return to Preservation; Shards will never run out of power from people using their magics.)

It is also possible to power a magic system using pure Investiture, if you can find Investiture in a physical form. (It takes many forms across all three Realms.) Burning atium draws directly on Ruin's power, since it's a physical piece of Ruin's Investiture. Drawing on the mists pulls directly from Preservation, and lets you apply that energy to whatever Allomancy you want. Stormlight appears to be a similar phenomenon; it's the Shard's power embodied physically, and it gets stored in gemstones until a Surgebinder can use it. But it's a wild card; the Investiture can be used in any number of ways, as opposed to the Investiture gained when a Mistborn burns steel, which can only provide energy in one specific form (Pushing).

It is theoretically possible to 'hack' a magic system to be powered by another Shard's power, especially when you have access to a physical form of Investiture. This has happened to an extent with a certain character on Roshar, who consumes Stormlight instead of Breath (but hasn't figured out how to Awaken with Stormlight). Sand Masters, from the graphic novel, might be able to recharge their sand by exposing it to Stormlight or Mists instead of sunlight on Taldain. (One theory is that the sunlight itself is Invested, and carrying energy from Taldain's Shard.) But that isn't the usual way of powering a magic system, which involves a direct path to the Shard in the Spiritual Realm.

How you get that path in the first place varies by magic system. For Allomancy and Feruchemy, there's a genetic component (with an additional Snapping required for Allomancy). For Surgebinders, it looks like if you behave certain ways and say certain Oaths, you bond a spren (which is a piece of a Shard). Awakeners can be anyone; all you need is to collect enough pieces of the Shard Endowment (and we've seen a certain Stormlight character with perfect pitch, who probably has some Breaths). For the most part, you need to be from a specific world to meet those requirements to gain that magic. Hemalurgy is a big exception, and one that the author of the Ars Arcanum has commented on; anyone, anywhere, can use Hemalurgy to steal any magic. All you need to do is know how.

So, I hope this answers some questions (and, honestly, I hope it raises a bunch more for you). Don't quite take everything I said as gospel truth; the big picture is confirmed (Shards can power their magic anywhere in the cosmere), but some of the specifics are debatable (like whether water for Sand Mastery is the exact same as color for Awakening, or the specific forms of Investiture that are required for Initiation). But hopefully this gives you a good springboard into the deep end of realmatics, to take the plunge and look with a close eye at passages in Brandon's books to puzzle out how all this fits together in the underlying theory.

[The Allomantic Metalhead he/him]

 

1 hour ago, Pagerunner said:

Welcome to the forums, and what a great question to start out with! The answer gets pretty deep into realmatics, so buckle up, 'cause this is gonna get messy. Metals themselves don't produce Investiture; they are keys to Investiture, which comes from a Shard. We do know that metals from another world are useable for Allomancy; if you're watching very carefully, you just might see it in Stormlight. Metal is an additional cost, like water is in White Sand or color is Warbreaker. The magic doesn't come from water (probably), it doesn't come from color. The magic is all drawn from the Shard behind that magic system.

Allomancy is powered by Preservation. Elantrians are powered by the Dor, a mixture of two other Shards. To gain access to a magic system, you usually need to graft a piece of that Shard's Investiture onto your soul. (Initiation is the technical term for it; in Allomancy, that takes the form of Snapping). Whenever you use that magic system, you're drawing energy from a Shard. It turns out, actually, that the Dor is the exception in this case, that it's very difficult to power when you travel off-world. We learn why in the essay for the Selish system in Arcanum Unbounded. I'll put it in spoilers below, in case you haven't read it yet.

  Hide contents

Devotion and Dominion, the two Shards that comprise the Dor, have the bulk of their power in the Cognitive Realm, a.k.a. Shadesmar, which is a sort-of-reflection of the Physical Realm. Most Shards have the bulk of their power in the Spiritual Realm, something we've only seen glimpses of so far.

So, why does that make Elantrian magic weaker? Because the Spiritual Realm is not a reflection of the Physical; it's not locations and maps. It's Connections between people and things and places, and their Identities. So, how far away you are from a Shard in the Physical Realm doesn't matter in the Spiritual Realm; once you've grafted a piece of that Shard's Investiture onto your soul, you have direct access to it through the Spiritual Realm, no matter where you are in the cosmere, and you can draw on that Shard's energy. (As a side note, time also doesn't matter in the Spiritual Realm; that's one way magic users can the future, by peering into the Spiritual Realm and seeing Connections that haven't been 'made.')

But the Dor isn't in the Spiritual Realm. It's in the Cognitive Realm. Elantrians are drawing energy from one specific piece of the Dor, the piece near Arelon (the part of the land that Aons reflect). When they go farther away from Arelon, they incur more and more 'transmission losses' trying to pull that Investiture through the Cognitive Realm to get it wherever they are.

So, if a Mistborn goes to Sel and burns a metal from Sel, they are consuming a piece of Selish matter to activate their Spiritual Connection to Preservation, letting them draw on Preservation's energy to power their Allomancy in a specific way. (Ultimately, this energy will return to Preservation; Shards will never run out of power from people using their magics.)

It is also possible to power a magic system using pure Investiture, if you can find Investiture in a physical form. (It takes many forms across all three Realms.) Burning atium draws directly on Ruin's power, since it's a physical piece of Ruin's Investiture. Drawing on the mists pulls directly from Preservation, and lets you apply that energy to whatever Allomancy you want. Stormlight appears to be a similar phenomenon; it's the Shard's power embodied physically, and it gets stored in gemstones until a Surgebinder can use it. But it's a wild card; the Investiture can be used in any number of ways, as opposed to the Investiture gained when a Mistborn burns steel, which can only provide energy in one specific form (Pushing).

It is theoretically possible to 'hack' a magic system to be powered by another Shard's power, especially when you have access to a physical form of Investiture. This has happened to an extent with a certain character on Roshar, who consumes Stormlight instead of Breath (but hasn't figured out how to Awaken with Stormlight). Sand Masters, from the graphic novel, might be able to recharge their sand by exposing it to Stormlight or Mists instead of sunlight on Taldain. (One theory is that the sunlight itself is Invested, and carrying energy from Taldain's Shard.) But that isn't the usual way of powering a magic system, which involves a direct path to the Shard in the Spiritual Realm.

How you get that path in the first place varies by magic system. For Allomancy and Feruchemy, there's a genetic component (with an additional Snapping required for Allomancy). For Surgebinders, it looks like if you behave certain ways and say certain Oaths, you bond a spren (which is a piece of a Shard). Awakeners can be anyone; all you need is to collect enough pieces of the Shard Endowment (and we've seen a certain Stormlight character with perfect pitch, who probably has some Breaths). For the most part, you need to be from a specific world to meet those requirements to gain that magic. Hemalurgy is a big exception, and one that the author of the Ars Arcanum has commented on; anyone, anywhere, can use Hemalurgy to steal any magic. All you need to do is know how.

So, I hope this answers some questions (and, honestly, I hope it raises a bunch more for you). Don't quite take everything I said as gospel truth; the big picture is confirmed (Shards can power their magic anywhere in the cosmere), but some of the specifics are debatable (like whether water for Sand Mastery is the exact same as color for Awakening, or the specific forms of Investiture that are required for Initiation). But hopefully this gives you a good springboard into the deep end of realmatics, to take the plunge and look with a close eye at passages in Brandon's books to puzzle out how all this fits together in the underlying theory.

Wow, that's a lot of stuff. It is my personal theory, true or not, that one way to "hack" Selish magic systems is to change the geography components of the runes to match the geography of the current nation you are in. I don't know if this is accurate, but it sounds kind of probable.

[Argent he/him]

2 hours ago, The Allomantic Metalhead said:

Wow, that's a lot of stuff. It is my personal theory, true or not, that one way to "hack" Selish magic systems is to change the geography components of the runes to match the geography of the current nation you are in. I don't know if this is accurate, but it sounds kind of probable.

It's not a bad guess at a hack, but I don't think it would work (even disregarding how impractical it is). There is some deeper stuff going on with Sel, so it's not just the lay of the land that shapes the magic there. For example:

Arcanum Unbounded Sel preface spoilers:

Spoiler

So, the Dor is the mixed investiture of Devotion and Dominion, locked in the Cognitive Realm, right? They are, in a way, kind of like a superspren (almost a Shard, really) in there, and so the shape of the Sel's Shadesmar affects how the Dor is expressed in the Physical Realm (or, alternatively, the Physical Realm affects how Sel's Shadesmar appears, and that in turn influences the Dor differently in different regions). So it's not that the Dor looks at the picture you've drawn, then looks at a map of the local region, and if the two match well enough you get magic; the Dor specifically keyed to Sel and its geography because that's where the investiture of Devotion and Dominion is.

In addition to this, Connection and Identity are also probably a factor. All of which makes me even more curios about how the Moon Scepter works...

[The Allomantic Metalhead he/him]

1 hour ago, Argent said:

It's not a bad guess at a hack, but I don't think it would work (even disregarding how impractical it is). There is some deeper stuff going on with Sel, so it's not just the lay of the land that shapes the magic there. For example:

Arcanum Unbounded Sel preface spoilers:

  Hide contents

So, the Dor is the mixed investiture of Devotion and Dominion, locked in the Cognitive Realm, right? They are, in a way, kind of like a superspren (almost a Shard, really) in there, and so the shape of the Sel's Shadesmar affects how the Dor is expressed in the Physical Realm (or, alternatively, the Physical Realm affects how Sel's Shadesmar appears, and that in turn influences the Dor differently in different regions). So it's not that the Dor looks at the picture you've drawn, then looks at a map of the local region, and if the two match well enough you get magic; the Dor specifically keyed to Sel and its geography because that's where the investiture of Devotion and Dominion is.

In addition to this, Connection and Identity are also probably a factor. All of which makes me even more curios about how the Moon Scepter works...

That Makes a lot of sense. I suppose we'll just have to wait to find out (if we do at all)...

As for the Moon Scepter, I may be totally ignorant about something Brandon Sanderson said (sometimes I don't pay much attention), but I always just thought it was just a symbol of authority...

[Mirdrim]

1 minute ago, The Allomantic Metalhead said:

That Makes a lot of sense. I suppose we'll just have to wait to find out (if we do at all)...

As for the Moon Scepter, I may be totally ignorant about something Brandon Sanderson said (sometimes I don't pay much attention), but I always just thought it was just a symbol of authority...

I believe there was note of it in AU, talking about it's importance.  Brandon has said that it's capable of translating symbols from one magic system to another, and that with it, using Sel's magic system off-world would be significantly less daunting.

The moon scepter was presumably swapped by Hoid when he betrayed Shai. It is most definitely not just a symbol of authority.

[The Allomantic Metalhead he/him]

41 minutes ago, Mirdrim said:

I believe there was note of it in AU, talking about it's importance.  Brandon has said that it's capable of translating symbols from one magic system to another, and that with it, using Sel's magic system off-world would be significantly less daunting.

The moon scepter was presumably swapped by Hoid when he betrayed Shai. It is most definitely not just a symbol of authority.

Thanks! Was unaware of that!

[Argent he/him]

1 hour ago, Mirdrim said:

I believe there was note of it in AU, talking about it's importance.  Brandon has said that it's capable of translating symbols from one magic system to another, and that with it, using Sel's magic system off-world would be significantly less daunting.

The moon scepter was presumably swapped by Hoid when he betrayed Shai. It is most definitely not just a symbol of authority.

It's something Brandon revealed during the Shadows of Self tour earlier this year. I believe this is the earliest reference to its purpose.

[soyperson]

6 minutes ago, Argent said:

It's something Brandon revealed during the Shadows of Self tour earlier this year. I believe this is the earliest reference to its purpose.

Could the Moon Scepter have something to do with Connection?

[Exalted]

4 minutes ago, bleeder said:

Could the Moon Scepter have something to do with Connection?

Considering that (BoM? I think? spoilers):

Spoiler

Connection is the attribute in the Feruchemy medallions that allows for insta-translation, I'd say this is very likely.

 

[soyperson]

Just now, miner3203 said:

Considering that (BoM? I think? spoilers):

  Hide contents

Connection is the attribute in the Feruchemy medallions that allows for insta-translation, I'd say this is very likely.

 

Also, could it have anything to do with 

Spoiler

the Connection orb in Secret History? The Ire are from Sel, after all.

 

[Exalted]

1 minute ago, bleeder said:

Also, could it have anything to do with 

  Hide contents

the Connection orb in Secret History? The Ire are from Sel, after all.

 

Ooh, nice line of thinking...do we know when Emperor's Soul takes place in relation to those events?

Spoiler

I.e. Do we know if the Moon Scepter is still in the hands of Selish residents at that point? I'm assuming Hoid secreted it away somewhere after he took it.

 

[soyperson]

2 minutes ago, miner3203 said:

Ooh, nice line of thinking...do we know when Emperor's Soul takes place in relation to those events?

  Hide contents

I.e. Do we know if the Moon Scepter is still in the hands of Selish residents at that point? I'm assuming Hoid secreted it away somewhere after he took it.

 

From the Coppermind:

"The Emperor's Soul - Shortly after Elantris, and not so far that the technology level has changed"

Also, Mistborn takes place hundreds of years later.

Edited December 22, 2016 by bleeder

[Exalted]

1 minute ago, bleeder said:

From the Coppermind:

"The Emperor's Soul - Shortly after Elantris, and not so far that the technology level has changed"

Since Elantris happens "far earlier than Hero of Ages", that means the Scepter would be

Spoiler

Out of the hands of the Ire and in the possession of Hoid, right? Which would, unfortunately, mean that their orb and the Scepter aren't related (unless they've managed to recover it, of course).

 

[soyperson]

Just now, miner3203 said:

Since Elantris happens "far earlier than Hero of Ages", that means the Scepter would be

  Hide contents

Out of the hands of the Ire and in the possession of Hoid, right? Which would, unfortunately, mean that their orb and the Scepter aren't related (unless they've managed to recover it, of course).

 

Back to the "how the Scepter works" thing, I guess.

I assume that it is some form of Connection, almost like a medallion?

[Exalted]

3 minutes ago, bleeder said:

Back to the "how the Scepter works" thing, I guess.

I assume that it is some form of Connection, almost like a medallion?

I'd assume something like that, yeah. I'm also assuming that this has been RAFO'ed at some point in the past, so we're left to speculating about it?

[soyperson]

2 minutes ago, miner3203 said:

I'd assume something like that, yeah. I'm also assuming that this has been RAFO'ed at some point in the past, so we're left to speculating about it?

Probably.

Hey, @Cosmere Chemist, have you read Sixth of the Dusk?

Also, @Chaos, could we migrate this thread to Cosmere Theories? It's gonna be a drawn-out discussion, I believe.

[Cosmere Chemist]

11 hours ago, bleeder said:

Probably.

Hey, @Cosmere Chemist, have you read Sixth of the Dusk?

Also, @Chaos, could we migrate this thread to Cosmere Theories? It's gonna be a drawn-out discussion, I believe.

@bleeder I have indeed.

 

Thanks for all the info guys! As a father of two young children and a tenure-track assistant professor I don't have as much time as I would like to really dissect these books. So your input is a great help!