Jump to content

lift and metabolizem


taveren

Recommended Posts

5 hours ago, taveren said:

from what she said about being able to make stormlight for 6 hours after she has eaten something it seems like the food is acting more like metal does for mistborn than her turning calories in to investiture

This is correct. Calories for Lift are like metals for an allomancer; they act as a key so that she can draw upon investiture.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

This is correct. Calories for Lift are like metals for an allomancer; they act as a key so that she can draw upon investiture.

Was it confirmed recently, or is it still theory? :)

Because you made it sounds like fact, and not long ago we were talking about the same thing without definitive conclusion :)

 

7 hours ago, taveren said:

from what she said about being able to make stormlight for 6 hours after she has eaten something it seems like the food is acting more like metal does for mistborn than her turning calories in to investiture

It was about half day. Seems more or less to be time needed to metabolize eaten food.
And it was not rly clear if she was talking about ability to convert or Stormlight itself. Spoolofwhool think that she was talking about food, I think that she was talking about how long she can store Stormlight itself.

Spoilers for Mistborn about metals usage.

And metal for allomancer isnt turning into Investiture, its just filter/valve which allow allomancer to get specific result from using Investiture. So even if fro outside it looks similarly, mechanics are different because what Lift is doing, is converting food into Investiture (Stormlight) - I guess spren or Nahel bond is working as filter/valve in this case.

Edited by Kanrei
Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 minutes ago, Kanrei said:

Was it confirmed recently, or is it still theory? :)

Because you made it sounds like fact, and not long ago we were talking about the same thing without definitive conclusion :)

Here's Brandon saying it's similar.

Quote

ARGENT

Does Lift turn food into investiture directly or is it similar to the metals on--

BRANDON SANDERSON

Similar to the metals.

ARGENT

So like a gate?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes.

ARGENT

Okay, that’s good to know.

BRANDON SANDERSON

She can metabolize-- She can draw-- It’s not actually the food, it’s-- It’s not like the metals, not exactly. It’s not-- What she can do is she can metabolize into investiture instead of sugar. Does that make sense?

ARGENT

Yeah.

BRANDON SANDERSON

We metabolize food into sugar. She can metabolize it into investiture. Does that make sense?

ARGENT

That makes a lot of sense. So if she eats--

BRANDON SANDERSON

She’s got to have a blood sugar spike.

ARGENT

So if she eats like a cake it will give her more investiture--

BRANDON SANDERSON

Faster. It will give her faster.

ARGENT

Whereas if she eats a vegetable...

BRANDON SANDERSON

Vegetable... More calories is going to equal more. But the better comparison would be a sausage and bread. Because bread is a fast blood sugar spike and the sausage is not. And that’s how I’m working in my head. It’s kind of a magical version of a blood sugar spike and I have it happen to her faster than it could happen. Like normally you eat a piece of bread and your blood sugar spikes in a half hour, it’s going to go faster for Lift.

ARGENT

Her’s is like five minutes.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Her’s is like five minutes, but a sausage would be slower.

[Source]

 

16 minutes ago, Kanrei said:

It was about half day. Seems more or less to be time needed to metabolize eaten food.
And it was not rly clear if she was talking about ability to convert or Stormlight itself. Spoolofwhool think that she was talking about food, I think that she was talking about how long she can store Stormlight itself.

That still doesn't explain her being hungry the moment her perceived awesomeness runs out, unless it is tied to the food in her body. I'm fairly certain that stormlight doesn't prevent hunger.

Edited by Spoolofwhool
Link to comment
Share on other sites

52 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Here's Brandon saying it's similar.

 

For me it looks that he starts by saying its like metals but then make it specific and actually says its different then metals.
"It’s not like the metals, not exactly. It’s not-- What she can do is she can metabolize into investiture instead of sugar" and then he went on explaining it in detail why its not like metals :)  Metal usage for alomancer spoilers

Like I wrote above, metals works as valve, where their molecular modelling works as filter for Investiture which decide what effect allomancer get (I paraphrasing WoB here but dont have link atm).


His later explanations are actually exactly like I said above. 
Spoiler for Mistbonr about metals usage.

Food is not acting as valve for Investiture like metals do for allomancer

Food is actually metabolized into Investiture instead of sugar.

Funny thing is, that it might to support my theory that Lift is living of Stormlight itself :)

Thanks for quote, for most time I cant open Theoryland (error 403 :( ) :D

Edited by Kanrei
Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

That still doesn't explain her being hungry the moment her perceived awesomeness runs out, unless it is tied to the food in her body. I'm fairly certain that stormlight doesn't prevent hunger.

We feel hunger when body see there is lack of nutrients in blood (very simplistic view)

My guess is that if she can live of Stormlight, then her body see Stormlight as nutrients (WoB you quoted says she can metabolize food into Stormlight instead of sugar) and when it disappear from blood body sends hunger signals as warning.
It could work if theory that she can live of Stormlight turns true.

How I see it could work would be like that:

She eats something, then body start to digest food and slowly metabolize it into Stormlight which body see as nutrients like it would see sugar (simplistic), but in small amounts which sustain Lift's body. When she surgebinding conversion spike out to provide more Stormlight.
When she runs out of Stormlight, Lift's body thinks she run out of nutrients and send hunger signals.

Edited by Kanrei
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Kanrei said:

For me it looks that he starts by saying its like metals but then make it specific and actually says its different then metals.
"It’s not like the metals, not exactly. It’s not-- What she can do is she can metabolize into investiture instead of sugar" and then he went on explaining it in detail why its not like metals :) Like I wrote above, metals works as valve, where their molecular modelling works as filter for Investiture which decide what effect allomancer get (I paraphrasing WoB here but dont have link atm).

His later explanations are actually exactly like I said above. 
Food is not acting as valve for Investiture like metals do for allomancer, food is actually metabolized into Investiture instead of sugar.

Funny thing is, that it might to support my theory that Lift is living of Stormlight itself :)

Thanks for quote, for most time I cant open Theoryland (error 403 :( ) :D

Just now, Kanrei said:

We feel hunger when body see there is lack of nutrients in blood (very simplistic view)

My guess is that if she can live of Stormlight, then her body see Stormlight as nutrients (WoB you quoted says she can metabolize food into Stormlight instead of sugar) and when it disappear from blood body sends hunger signals as warning.
It could work if theory that she can live of Stormlight turns true.

Eh, not really. The way I see it is that she's not creating the stormlight from the food, because that honestly makes no sense. The food is not made from stormlight, so you shouldn't be able to make stormlight from food unless you're really good at crossing investiture pathways. When he's saying that she metabolizes it into investiture, what I think he's saying is that instead of metabolizing it into sugar, she's shifting it into a state where it is then used to create a gate so that she can access the spiritual realm where the investiture which forms stormlight is, like how metals are burned in order to access the spiritual realm where Preservation's power is stored. 

I was going to say that there was no evidence to support that you can't feed the body with stormlight, before I realized there actually could be, so I'm going to have to defeat my own argument. As you say, hunger is felt when the body needs nutrients. Stormlight can be used to regenerate the body. Therefore, it could be argued that while stormlight is internalized, it could be passively used to regenerate nutrient-starved cells instead of actually giving them the nutrients. Therefore you could be correct. It would also explain why she suddenly becomes hungry when she runs out of stormlight, like after surgebinding or when the larkin ate her investiture. Nonetheless, I still disagree with the theory that she is creating a lot of stormlight at a point in the day. That she is collectively calling her nutrients and stormlight awesomeness makes more sense to me, along with the fact that she is drawing in stormlight as she needs to. There is also the fact that using stormlight to stave off hunger would be probably less efficient than just having the nutrients since the stormlight would be both leaking from the body as normal and would be used to regenerate cells, which I also think would require more stormlight than the same amount of nutrients would give.

Two more points. Please don't double post and please edit the topic title to indicate that it contains Mistborn spoilers. I would hate for someone to accidentally get spoilered somehow, even if no plot info is present. Discovering how allomancy works is part of the thrill of Mistborn.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Eh, not really. The way I see it is that she's not creating the stormlight from the food, because that honestly makes no sense. The food is not made from stormlight, so you shouldn't be able to make stormlight from food unless you're really good at crossing investiture pathways. When he's saying that she metabolizes it into investiture, what I think he's saying is that instead of metabolizing it into sugar, she's shifting it into a state where it is then used to create a gate so that she can access the spiritual realm where the investiture which forms stormlight is, like how metals are burned in order to access the spiritual realm where Preservation's power is stored.

I was going to say that there was no evidence to support that you can't feed the body with stormlight, before I realized there actually could be, so I'm going to have to defeat my own argument.

I guess its about interpretation of Sanderson words.
My interpretation is that end result is that when she metabolize food she is getting Stormlight instead of sugar. How exactly it would works is guess work. There is difference compared to metals or Sanderson wouldnt point it out explained in details.

Anyway that theory started just as funny exercise but after our discussions I think it actually might be close to truth because as you pointed out, there are things which fit my theory.

I edited my previous post to reflect that I dont think that all food is converted to stormlight at once, only that its slow proces, like normal metabolism with spiking when Lift need to surgebind.
BTW it might be nothing, but Lift said that she is running on food even more then normal people. She might think about fact that she need it for Surgebinding too (as she gets Stormlight that way) or unconsciously hinting that conversion food > Stormlight is less effective then food > sugar (nutrients).

Thanks for not outright dismissing it and giving it some thought even that you dont agree with it :)

 

11 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Two more points. Please don't double post and please edit the topic title to indicate that it contains Mistborn spoilers. I would hate for someone to accidentally get spoilered somehow, even if no plot info is present. Discovering how allomancy works is part of the thrill of Mistborn.

 

Sorry for double post, should I can delete my post, and copy text into one? I edited my posts with spoiler tags.

This topic itself isnt started by me so I cant change title (or can I?).

Edited by Kanrei
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Kanrei said:

Sorry for double post, should I can delete my post, and copy text into one? I edited my posts with spoiler tags.

This topic itself isnt started by me so I cant change title (or can I?).

Sorry about that, my bad. You were so involved I thought you had initiated it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On ‎12‎/‎15‎/‎2016 at 0:40 PM, Spoolofwhool said:

The way I see it is that she's not creating the stormlight from the food, because that honestly makes no sense. The food is not made from stormlight, so you shouldn't be able to make stormlight from food unless you're really good at crossing investiture pathways. When he's saying that she metabolizes it into investiture, what I think he's saying is that instead of metabolizing it into sugar, she's shifting it into a state where it is then used to create a gate so that she can access the spiritual realm where the investiture which forms stormlight is, like how metals are burned in order to access the spiritual realm where Preservation's power is stored. 

In Edgedancer, Wyndle explicitly states that Lift "makes" stormlight. Now that could just be a simplification arising from a limited perspective, but Wyndle seems to understand things pretty well. Also from the WOB above:

Quote

BRANDON SANDERSON

She can metabolize-- She can draw-- It’s not actually the food, it’s-- It’s not like the metals, not exactly. It’s not-- What she can do is she can metabolize into investiture instead of sugar. Does that make sense?

ARGENT

Yeah.

BRANDON SANDERSON

We metabolize food into sugar. She can metabolize it into investiture.

So, taking the plain meaning of his words... She can metabolize make it food into investiture stormlight. You don't have to understand the mechanism by which the process is accomplished in order to understand that it is. However, Sanderson even goes as far as to explains the mechanism by which Lift does what she does. What he didn't explain is what metabolizing food into investiture means for how Lift nourishes her body. It's that last part that you're getting hung up on, and frankly I don't see how that really matters.

If stormlight/investiture is essentially spiritual energy released into the physical realm, is it really that much of a stretch to believe that the Nightwatcher altered Lift's body to skip the process her cells use to create energy (i.e. food goes through a series of oxidation reactions that break nutrients down into energy-rich molecules like ATP and/or NADH which are then used in glycosis, fermentation, or oxidative phosphorylation to create cellular energy | Link: Nature.com - Cell Energy and Cell Functions)?

U1CP3-5_CellMetabolism_ksm.jpg

Seeing as how there are three different processes by which cells convert food into energy, could the Nightwatcher have simply added one to Lift's cells that allows them to function like gemstones (which are able to hold stormlight)? From there, all that is needed is for Lift's cells to be able to use stormlight in a manner similar to the way that normal cells use electrical energy. This isn't difficult to imagine because stormlight gives off light and powers things like flight for Windrunners, illumination and soul casting for Lightweavers, and powers movement in paired fabrials for non-surge binders. So, Lift's cellular metabolism diagram might look something like this:

Stormlight_Metabolism.jpg

Edited by KidWayne
typo correction
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, KidWayne said:

In Edgedancer, Wyndle explicitly states that Lift "makes" stormlight. Now that could just be a simplification arising from a limited perspective, but Wyndle seems to understand things pretty well. Also from the WOB above:

So, taking them plain meaning of his words... She can metabolize make it food into investiture stormlight. You don't have to understand the mechanism by which the process is accomplished in order to understand that it is. However, Sanderson even goes as far as to explains the mechanism by which Lift does what she does. What he didn't explain is what metabolizing food into investiture means for how Lift nourishes her body. It's that last part that you're getting hung up on, and frankly I don't see how that really matters.

If stormlight/investiture is essentially spiritual energy released into the physical realm, is it really that much of a stretch to believe that the Nightwatcher altered Lift's body to skip the process her cells use to create energy (i.e. food goes through a series of oxidation reactions that break nutrients down into energy-rich molecules like ATP and/or NADH which are then used in glycosis, fermentation, or oxidative phosphorylation to create cellular energy | Link: Nature.com - Cell Energy and Cell Functions)?

U1CP3-5_CellMetabolism_ksm.jpg

Seeing as how there are three different processes by which cells convert food into energy, could the Nightwatcher have simply added one to Lift's cells that allows them to function like gemstones (which are able to hold stormlight)? From there, all that is needed is for Lift's cells to be able to use stormlight in a manner similar to the way that normal cells use electrical energy. This isn't difficult to imagine because stormlight gives off light and powers things like flight for Windrunners, illumination and soul casting for Lightweavers, and powers movement in paired fabrials for non-surge binders. So, Lift's cellular metabolism diagram might look something like this:

Stormlight_Metabolism.jpg

Thank you for this illustration. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

31 minutes ago, KidWayne said:

In Edgedancer, Wyndle explicitly states that Lift "makes" stormlight. Now that could just be a simplification arising from a limited perspective, but Wyndle seems to understand things pretty well. Also from the WOB above:

My issue, and what it appears to me that you're missing, is that investiture is not just as general as energy, as you are implying, nor is investiture energy. Stormlight is a specific form of investiture, with ties to certain entities, I believe at least Honor and Cultivation. In order to create stormlight, one would have to replicate those connections as well, something which I don't see as probably. That's why I find it more likely that Lift is creating a connection in order to access the investiture in the spiritual realm which manifests in the physical realm as stormlight. What Brandon is trying to say there is that she has been changed such that the process in order to access that investiture follows the same principles as the metabolization of sugars, and likely begins the same way, in addition to being essentially an unconscious part of her physiology.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Spoolofwhool OK, that seems needlessly complicated. Why not view investiture as energy? Can you think of a single manifestation of investiture that isn't an analog to a battery, electricity, or some other kind of force? I can't...

Stormlight Archive

    ○ Roshar: Each of the "surges" is basically a force. Fabrials harness stormlight in gemstones which function almost identically to electricity stored in batteries.

• Warbreaker

Spoiler

Nalthis: Breath animates non-living things or augments the natural abilities of living things (like electricity or technology powered by it)

Elantris

Spoiler

Sel: Various forms are used to unlock the Dor which is typically expressed as a force (e.g. light, fire, transformation) or a change in form and ability. Either way, the Dor is providing either raw energy in a particular form or it is providing energy to power a transformation.

NOTE > I consider the augmentation bestowed by investiture similarly to how a dimmer switch on a light bulb works. A dimmer switch diverts energy from the light bulb into a resistor which prevents the light from shining to its full capacity; to augment a natural ability, investiture lessens a person's natural resistance which increases their ability. 

Mistborn (spoiler pertains to the first three books only)

Spoiler

 

Scadrial: In allomancy, metal unlocks innate investiture which powers magic dealing with force, emotions, time, and the manipulation of spiritual dynamics (e.g. identity, investiture, connection). In feruchemy, metals function as batteries which store one or more feruchemical attributes (physical, mental, and spiritual) which can increase or diminish a ferchemist's natural ability; a feruchemist's innate investiture powers the ability to store attributes. Hemalurgy is a system that steals spiritual attributes in order to utilize various types of investiture; I assume that the ambient investiture of Ruin enables hemalurgy by empowering metal which pierces an individual in the right spot to steal spiritual attributes. Just like the Dor on Sel, investiture is either providing energy (allomancy) or it is powering an ability/transformation (feruchemy & hemalurgy).

NOTE > In either Scadrian magic system, metal is a component of an invested "battery" which facilitates magic (allomancy = non-rechargeable batteries | feruchemy = rechargeable batteries). See this illustrated example of how alkaline batteries work.  This may seem like an imperfect analogy since metal is not the source of investiture; however the metal in batteries isn't exactly the source of electricity either, electrons are (when zinc inside a an alkaline battery is oxidized, it produces free electrons which escape through a brass pin that is in contact with the anode; these free electrons power the connected device). On Scadrial people possess innate investiture which can be unlocked (allomancy) or tapped (feruchemy); metal is a focus which is either burned away or used as a storage medium. In allomancy, the brass pin is consumed but the innate investiture is infinite. In Feruchemy, the stoed ability (analogous to the oxidized zinc/anode) is consumed/replenished and investiture is necessary to complete the circuit.  Either way, no metal = no magic; hence the battery analogy.

Hemalurgy is similar to feruchemy in that both magics rely on investiture to enable an ability involving metal; however, neither magic system actually consumes metal or investiture. This is more similar to magnetism than electricity (the presence of a magnet will create a constant effect on nearby ferromagnetic metal without consuming anything; it grants the ability of a ferromagnetic metal to attract other ferromagnetic metals) but that doesn't harm my illustration, because electricity and magnetism are closely related. Flowing electrons produce a magnetic field, and spinning magnets cause an electric current to flow. Electromagnetism is the interaction of these two important forces.

 

Other Cosmere Stories/Planets

    ○ I'm leaving Taldain, Threnody, and First of the Sun alone because I'm not 100% on how those planets' magic systems function. So maybe you can find an argument there.

Edited by KidWayne
to add spoiler tags
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, KidWayne said:

@Spoolofwhool OK, that seems needlessly complicated. Why not view investiture as energy? Can you think of a single manifestation of investiture that isn't an analog to a battery, electricity, or some other kind of force? I can't...

The reason why I cannot is because investiture while has properties analogous to those possessed by energy, such as never being created or destroyed, it is not energy. Rather, investiture creates energy, before cycling back to its origin, in some instances.

Please watch the spoilers of other series. You have a startlingly high amount.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Spoolofwhool Fair enough about spoilers, I'll go back and spoiler tag my post. I guess that it's fair to view investiture as the spontaneous creation of energy (or as a conduit for the potential energy that is ordinarily stored in the Spiritual Realm), even if that seems like splitting hairs to me.

 

20 hours ago, OdiYum said:

Can Lift also infuse stormlight?  It would be kind of cool if she was a human-larkin, or "h-arkin."  (term is now head cannon)

I've actually been wondering the same thing. Several possibilities exist for why we haven't seen her do so (assuming that she has the ability to obtain stormlight via the conventional means); it could be that...

  1. she doesn't try because obtaining stormlight via food is the method she is most familiar with or the method that is more direct for her
  2. she doesn't know how to infuse stormlight by breathing it in (after all Kaladin struggled with this at first) 
  3. as a transient street urchin she rarely has access to any but the smallest quantity of spheres/money; this would mean that she would have to steal money or at the very least infuse stormlight from other people's spheres. Since all of the proto-radiants seem to have an instinct to keep their abilities hidden, this would be an effective barrier.

I've been wondering whether or not it's possible for a knowledgeable surgebinder (i.e. a herald or full radiant) to draw stormlight from another surgebinder for a while now. I'm assuming that this doesn't work though, because otherwise what's the point of Nale carrying a larkin around?

Edited by KidWayne
To reply to OdiYum so as to avoid double posting
Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 hours ago, OdiYum said:

Can Lift also infuse stormlight?  It would be kind of cool if she was a human-larkin, or "h-arkin."  (term is now head cannon)

Infuse, as in draw in stormlight from spheres? I believe there's a WoB that says she doesn't because she has her own method of obtaining stormlight, and therefore doesn't practice nor try to. Your wording is interesting because infuse is generally used to mean that the surgebinder places stormlight into an object, such as when Kaladin performs a basic lashing on something. If that's what you meant, then yes, she can do that.

1 hour ago, KidWayne said:

Spoolofwhool Fair enough about spoilers, I'll go back and spoiler tag my post. I guess that it's fair to view investiture as the spontaneous creation of energy (or as a conduit for the potential energy that is ordinarily stored in the Spiritual Realm), even if that seems like splitting hairs to me.

I don't see how it's splitting hairs since investiture isn't energy. In any case, now that we've established that investiture isn't energy, I don't see how your model for how Lift would metabolize into investiture could still stand since you cannot turn energy into investiture. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is worth noting that Stormlight can be used to make plants grow. As per WoB. It is what the Listeners do, I think. 

It would make sense this could be done in people too and by people, I mean Lift.

However it is notable that using and running out of Stormlight exhausts the user. And Wyndle does say she's at risk of malnutrition. It is possible that even if it can be used to sustain the body, it isn't enough in the long term.

Edited by Savanorn
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Savanorn said:

It is worth noting that Stormlight can be used to make plants grow. As per WoB. It is what the Listeners do, I think. 

I mean, there is even a scene where Lift directly uses the surge of regrowth to grow some plants so we have seen it happen. 

1 hour ago, Savanorn said:

However it is notable that using and running out of Stormlight exhausts the user. And Wyndle does say she's at risk of malnutrition. It is possible that even if it can be used to sustain the body, it isn't enough in the long term.

Chances are that if you're low on nutrition, stormlight will augment it by regenerating the parts of the body so that they avoid using the nutrition, which is why she didn't feel hungry until after her stormlight ran out, because her body wasn't using any. Nonetheless, it probably is a fairly inefficient usage of stormlight.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Nonetheless, it probably is a fairly inefficient usage of stormlight.

Turning your amazingly powerful bonded Cognitive Shadow into a fork is a fairly inefficient usage of a spren, but it's still super cool and a very Lift thing to do :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On ‎12‎/‎23‎/‎2016 at 0:25 PM, Spoolofwhool said:

I don't see how it's splitting hairs since investiture isn't energy. In any case, now that we've established that investiture isn't energy, I don't see how your model for how Lift would metabolize into investiture could still stand since you cannot turn energy into investiture. 

I think I finally understand where you're coming from. Your argument is that energy isn't a substitute for investiture; I agree. I was non-transitively saying that investiture could be a substitute for energy (even if the reverse is not true). 

My logic:

1. Electromagnetic energy can provide power and/or do work.

2. Investiture can access magical energy.

→ Investiture can provide power and/or do work; therefore, investiture can be considered as a form of non-electromagnetic energy

Your logic:

1. Investiture is a source of energy

2. Energy is not a source of investiture

→ Investiture is not energy

 

My model works because - while you cannot turn energy into investiture - you can use investiture to obtain energy. Lift is mysteriously converting food into stormlight/investiture which is then transmitted to her cells. Her cells are then able to use stormlight to power cell functions instead of electricity derived from chemical reactions. I can't answer how food becomes stormlight, but I have proposed a model for how stormlight could be used instead of glucose to fuel Lift's body. In other words I didn't attempt to explain how Lift would metabolize into investiture so much as I was explaining how she could metabolize energy from investiture. Perhaps the way she obtains investiture from food is form-based; where the molecular structure of glucose is a form which allows her to draw a prescribed amount of stormlight via Lift's connection to Cultivation.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Chaos locked this topic
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...