Any more Mistborn?

[Spoolofwhool]

8 minutes ago, Avalon Blue said:

Wow. This thread filled up quick. Love it when the community comes together to discuss this stuff. First off, in reply to an early comment: Completely forgot Spook was turned into a mistborn by Harmony. Totally right on that. Second, the feeling I am getting is that if Spook did have any children likely as not the Mistborn gene didn't take (or at least not that we know anyway) Thirdly, wait seriously Feruchemy and Allomancy clash? I need to pay more attention. 

I agree with Faceless MistWraith, I always assumed that the lord ruler was trying to stop anyone from acquiring the same abilities as him. So then, linking back to my question above, how do allomancy and feruchemy clash? Is it because Rashek voided that by taking the power at the well of accession? 

According to Brandon they clash as a result of a nature feature of them when the two spiritual "genes" coincide in an individual.

[Blue Skies]

Hmmm wonder what else would clash with allomancy. I guess in a way that's a good thing. It means no one person can have all the power in the world. No over powered people.

 

A thought occurred. Is it possible that the child Rashek had knew about any of this? Could that child have taken a lerasium bead and fled to another world? A worldhopper, I know I am clutching at straws but still. 

[Inquisitor #5]

Well, Hemalurgy still allows comboing powers.

I'd say Marsh is pretty overpowered in present day Scadrial. Then again, I would think that...

Possible: yes, I suppose. Probable: no.

 

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[Blue Skies]

I still think, even if eventually nothing comes of it, that Rashek's kid will play a role. Why else would someone divulge that information without it having meaning?

Hemalurgy is still a bit of a double edged sword. Use to many spikes and you fall to the influence of Harmony......or something worse. At the moment though only two ways exist for a person to become technically Mistborn, well three ways actually. First is Hemalurgy. We all know why thats not a great plan even if the power you receive is useful it won't be nearly as strong as the original holder making for a powerful, but by no means invincible, mistborn. Second is to use the bands. Obviously these have limits too and supposedly to refill them might take a couple hundred years of charging. Thirdly is a natural Mistborn which hasn't cropped back up yet but supposedly possible.

[SoulWeaver]

Hey so I'm sure this answer's already been given: but if you recall, the Lerasium was part of the physical body of Preservation. I believe that creating Lerasium and Atium may have weakened the power of Ruin and Preservation. If Harmony gives up power to create Mistborn, that may weaken him to vulnerability to attack from Trell. 

An article ran through the New Ascendancy Broadsheet in New Serran that discussed the possibility of a "Sazedium" or the metal of Harmony. I wonder if Harmony even can create Lerasium. Harmony is the combined power of the two shards, and Sazed himself said it would be very difficult to seperate. Does his metal provide different attributes than Lerasium? That is my second theory on Mistborn.

[Weltall]

Harmony's godmetal is called harmonium, Word of Brandon is that it's not sazedium because Sazed didn't like that name. And we've actually seen ot and it definitely has different physical properties than lerasium. We're not even sure it can be ingested safely so it's impossible to know what its Allomantic properties might be.

We're not certain if lerasium or atium could be produced now but there's so much potential in their alloys that I'm leaning heavily in favor of the idea that yes, they can still be created.

25 minutes ago, Avalon Blue said:

I still think, even if eventually nothing comes of it, that Rashek's kid will play a role. Why else would someone divulge that information without it having meaning?

Hemalurgy is still a bit of a double edged sword. Use to many spikes and you fall to the influence of Harmony......or something worse. At the moment though only two ways exist for a person to become technically Mistborn, well three ways actually. First is Hemalurgy. We all know why thats not a great plan even if the power you receive is useful it won't be nearly as strong as the original holder making for a powerful, but by no means invincible, mistborn. Second is to use the bands. Obviously these have limits too and supposedly to refill them might take a couple hundred years of charging. Thirdly is a natural Mistborn which hasn't cropped back up yet but supposedly possible.

I dunno, why did Brandon divulge that there are forces in the Cosmere working to bring about the creation of instant noodles? xD

But yes, I suspect that at some point the fact that Rashek has at least one descendant still alive in present-day Scadrial will come up in the books, though maybe not in this era. Maybe it will be a totally incidental thing and a character finds out that 'oh hey, my great^great grandfather was the Lord Ruler... that's weird', maybe it will be the start of a holy war with believers in The Sliver* convinced they've found their new messiah, maybe they turn out to be a mistborn, go mad with power and become the serial killer antagonist implied for Era 3... or maybe it turns out that Wayne traded the position of Rashek's descendant for a pack of chewing gum.

* I can't check right now but I think it was implied that there's a small Church of the Sliver or something like it in Era 2?

Edited December 12, 2016 by Weltall

[Demiandre]

1 hour ago, Faceless Mist-Wraith said:

It just seems like it would have come up. After all, he used the power of Preservation to turn the Feruchemists into mist-wraiths (does that mean I'm an honorary Feruchemist?) specifically to avoid the Feruchemy-Allomancy mix. Since his mind was expanded at the time, allowing him to see everything in minute detail, the power should have shown him that there was nothing to worry about.

That's the point, he didn't see everything in minue detail, he had great powers, could do anything, but he didn't know everything. Else, he wouldn't have messed up with the world and its inhabitant. Something as specific as the spiritual connection of a Feruchemist or Allomancer and how the genetics doesn't enables the two to mix extensively could have escaped him.

Another possibility, if he knew, is that he feared Twinborns. Gold/Gold Compounder are nearly unkillable and Atium/Atium Compounder are close to immortal. He might fear other Compounding combos.

[Spoolofwhool]

1 hour ago, Avalon Blue said:

Hemalurgy is still a bit of a double edged sword. Use to many spikes and you fall to the influence of Harmony......or something worse. At the moment though only two ways exist for a person to become technically Mistborn, well three ways actually. First is Hemalurgy. We all know why thats not a great plan even if the power you receive is useful it won't be nearly as strong as the original holder making for a powerful, but by no means invincible, mistborn. Second is to use the bands. Obviously these have limits too and supposedly to refill them might take a couple hundred years of charging. Thirdly is a natural Mistborn which hasn't cropped back up yet but supposedly possible.

You can allomancy/feruchemy compound in order to rapidly fill the bands if you have enough metal lying around. 

[Kingsdaughter613]

There is supposed to be a Mistborn in era 2?3? Wax and Wayne messed up the count... But yes, there will be more Mistborn.

According to a WoB Allomancy has already reached an equilibrium and will not get weaker.

Hoid still has the Lerasium as of the letter writing and is believed to have used it. (Paraphrased, but Brandon was asked if Hoid had used it and replied that we had seen Hoid use allomancy and that was the answer.) 

Saze definitely knew how to create Mistborn. It's possible both that the genes for allomancy and feruchemy conflict and that Saze is the reason they do so. The existence of a fullborn (what are you up to Kelsier...) might have been a good impetus for that.

Spoiler

In conjunction with the above; in theory Kelsier could have children and they could have inherited the SDNA for Mistborn.

 

[Spoolofwhool]

6 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

There is supposed to be a Mistborn in era 2?3? Wax and Wayne messed up the count... But yes, there will be more Mistborn.

According to a WoB Allomancy has already reached an equilibrium and will not get weaker.

Hoid still has the Lerasium as of the letter writing and is believed to have used it. (Paraphrased, but Brandon was asked if Hoid had used it and replied that we had seen Hoid use allomancy and that was the answer.) 

Saze definitely knew how to create Mistborn. It's possible both that the genes for allomancy and feruchemy conflict and that Saze is the reason they do so. The existence of a fullborn (what are you up to Kelsier...) might have been a good impetus for that.

  Hide contents

In conjunction with the above; in theory Kelsier could have children and they could have inherited the SDNA for Mistborn.

 

Wax and Wayne is Era 2, there will be 4 Mistborn Eras in total.

I doubt that Sazed changed how the manifestations of investiture work on people. I feel like that would require a reinvestment of Scadrial which would break everything.

Spiritual DNA genetics and inheritance gets a bit patchy when hemalurgy is involved. 

[Landis963]

Spiking with harmonium probably wouldn't work - as others have mentioned, the metal would explode upon contact with blood (or any other moisture), and blood contact is necessary for the spike to take.  Burning harmonium, on the other hand, requires nothing but a shell of water-tight wax keeping the harmonium from contacting your saliva, stomach acid, etc.  Once the harmonium is in your stomach, though, a Mistborn would be able to burn it just as easily as Vin could burn an atium bead from inside a lead shell.  

[Yata]

@Faceless Mist-Wraith actually TLR had all to fear from Feruchemist and the interbreeding from Allomancy and Feruchemy.

He did fear the possible birth of another Fullborn(also if living 1000 years a quite impossible possibilities may became an "unlikely possibility" but also in this case TLR will be superior to this new Fullborn), He will be menaced by the simply public knowledge of Feruchemy and much much more by the birth of a single Twinborn.

All his fake godhood would fall apart when the people may connect your feats with something they can do. Much more if a Compounder Twinborn would arise and the people discovered the possibility of Compound...all the mysticism about TLF will fall.

He didn't fear an actual direct opponent, but the loss of controll over the Empire

[Inquisitor #5]

4 hours ago, Landis963 said:

Spiking with harmonium probably wouldn't work - as others have mentioned, the metal would explode upon contact with blood (or any other moisture), and blood contact is necessary for the spike to take.  Burning harmonium, on the other hand, requires nothing but a shell of water-tight wax keeping the harmonium from contacting your saliva, stomach acid, etc.  Once the harmonium is in your stomach, though, a Mistborn would be able to burn it just as easily as Vin could burn an atium bead from inside a lead shell.  

I'm pretty sure a completely sealed capsule would preclude burning the metal. But we do know that metal only has to be within the body to be burned so I'd think my original idea works, i.e. making an earring out of it and putting it in an already made hole, one that's healed enough that there's no  bleeding anymore. Would work either as an Allomantic power source or a metalmind.

 

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[Landis963]

4 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I'm pretty sure a completely sealed capsule would preclude burning the metal. But we do know that metal only has to be within the body to be burned so I'd think my original idea works, i.e. making an earring out of it and putting it in an already made hole, one that's healed enough that there's no  bleeding anymore. Would work either as an Allomantic power source or a metalmind.

 

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In order for the spike to work the first time, there needs to be blood contact.  This has been stated by textual evidence and WoB.  Harmonium's reactivity precludes this.  As for Allomancy, Vin once swallowed a bead of atium, coated in lead to disguise its size (this was the atium that Zane gave her in WoA).  When the time came to burn it, she burned the atium just fine, but was unable to burn the lead.  Ergo, any allomantically-viable metal that is within the Allomancer's system - regardless of whether that metal is directly contacting said Allomancer's system or not - will be burned.  

[Inquisitor #5]

6 minutes ago, Landis963 said:

In order for the spike to work the first time, there needs to be blood contact.  This has been stated by textual evidence and WoB.  Harmonium's reactivity precludes this.  As for Allomancy, Vin once swallowed a bead of atium, coated in lead to disguise its size (this was the atium that Zane gave her in WoA).  When the time came to burn it, she burned the atium just fine, but was unable to burn the lead.  Ergo, any allomantically-viable metal that is within the Allomancer's system - regardless of whether that metal is directly contacting said Allomancer's system or not - will be burned.  

OK, I'm not talking about using it as a spike, only as an Allomantic metal or metalmind.

And I think that was a ball of lead coated with Atium... I'll get back on that once I've checked the book.

Quote

"A lump of lead," Zane said, walking forward. "Plated with a thin layer of atium around it."

The Well of Ascension, p. 592, TOR paperback.

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Edited December 13, 2016 by Inquisitor #5
Edited to add book quote

[Landis963]

4 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

OK, I'm not talking about using it as a spike, only as an Allomantic metal or metalmind.

And I think that was a ball of lead coated with Atium... I'll get back to that once I've checked the book.

 

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Sweat would still set it off, unless everything but the designated skin contact patch is coated in some protective substance such as wax.  And even then, it's like walking around with a live grenade on your arm.  There's practicality issues here.  

[Inquisitor #5]

Oh, I definitely agree. It's incredibly impractical, if technically doable.

It's like a volatile substance that can be stored safely. Just because it's possible doesn't mean you'd want a jar of it at home.

 

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[Faceless Mist-Wraith]

With regards to what @Kingsdaughter613 said:

(Secret History/BoM spoilers)

Spoiler

9 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

In conjunction with the above; in theory Kelsier could have children and they could have inherited the SDNA for Mistborn.

Is Kelsier able to have children now? He was a cognitive shade, and now he's "alive" somehow. Does the process he used to return allow him to have children?

[Inquisitor #5]

7 minutes ago, Faceless Mist-Wraith said:

With regards to what @Kingsdaughter613 said:

(Secret History/BoM spoilers)

  Reveal hidden contents

Is Kelsier able to have children now? He was a cognitive shade, and now he's "alive" somehow. Does the process he used to return allow him to have children?

Spoiler

I'd go with probably, assuming his shiny new body is functional, so to speak.

There might be some weirdness there though... *shrug*

 

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[Demiandre]

If Harmonium is like alkali metals, then drenching it in oil would prevent it from exploding (well, rather, from touching water). And the stomach acid doesn't contain lots of water. It comes mainly from the saliva.

On another topic, are there chemist around who know if an alloy of Alkali metal could be unexplosive ? Some are, presumably, but I wondered about other alloys (I refer to Bleeder's spike, of an unknown metal, granting a Kandra Allomantic or Feruchemical ability. I wondered if it was an Alloy of Harmonium)

Edited December 13, 2016 by Demiandre

[Yata]

I don't think nothing as "sDNA of Mistborn" exist at all. The only trait a son would inherit from a parent (in regard to Allomancy) is a Connection to Preservation with different weights. If the guy achieve above a treeshold of Connection to Preservation the seed of the Allomancy developed in a Misting's power, if you are above another (much highter) treeshold you began a Mistborn.

There is no direct inheritage of the actual power, as you may notice with the fact that Misting's child didn't develop the same metal usually or the fact that a Misting may gave birth to a Mistborn.

[Sallin Zeras]

17 hours ago, Avalon Blue said:

I still think, even if eventually nothing comes of it, that Rashek's kid will play a role. Why else would someone divulge that information without it having meaning?

Hemalurgy is still a bit of a double edged sword. Use to many spikes and you fall to the influence of Harmony......or something worse. At the moment though only two ways exist for a person to become technically Mistborn, well three ways actually. First is Hemalurgy. We all know why thats not a great plan even if the power you receive is useful it won't be nearly as strong as the original holder making for a powerful, but by no means invincible, mistborn. Second is to use the bands. Obviously these have limits too and supposedly to refill them might take a couple hundred years of charging. Thirdly is a natural Mistborn which hasn't cropped back up yet but supposedly possible.

I don't think so. If Rashek's descendants were relevant to the story, Brandon would have said RAFO when he was asked if TLR had children.

[Spoolofwhool]

15 minutes ago, Yata said:

I don't think nothing as "sDNA of Mistborn" exist at all. The only trait a son would inherit from a parent (in regard to Allomancy) is a Connection to Preservation with different weights. If the guy achieve above a treeshold of Connection to Preservation the seed of the Allomancy developed in a Misting's power, if you are above another (much highter) treeshold you began a Mistborn.

There is no direct inheritage of the actual power, as you may notice with the fact that Misting's child didn't develop the same metal usually or the fact that a Misting may gave birth to a Mistborn.

Exactly my point. An example of the last point being Straff Venture, a Tineye, fathering Zane, a Mistborn.

[Sallin Zeras]

22 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Exactly my point. An example of the last point being Straff Venture, a Tineye, fathering Zane, a Mistborn.

Remember Zane had a spike, probably more than one

Edited December 13, 2016 by Talanelat'Elin Stonesinew

[Demiandre]

There was only one spike, and I believe it just enhanced his allomantic steel