Source - Chapter 2 Revision - TKWade (V) - 2,995

[TKWade]

Looking for character consistency, pacing, tension holding, etc.

I'm curious on thoughts on new Potent scene, Inquisitor scene, and ending. Is there a point where you feel like it slows down too much or does it hold interest?

I tried to do more showing and less telling - please let me know if I'm getting closer to the mark. 

My punctuation is not great, but if you want to nit pick it I'm all for it, or even if you want to pick a page to nit pick and explain why the punctuation is incorrect that would help a lot. I have much to learn.  

Thanks for reading!

[Hobbit]

I didn't read your first draft of Chapter 2, so consider my perspective fresh.   I was really looking forward to chapter 2 after what happened in chapter 1, and this did not disappoint.  Plot-wise, I thought this was great.  I’m very invested in your world and in your story.  Things are moving forward quickly, and it seems like there’s a lot going on behind the scenes.  Your weak points are in your nuts and bolts (and from skimming last week's comments, this was an issue before) - leaving out details, using vague or generic descriptions, sentence structure, etc.  But you’ve got a good story here, and once you iron out your delivery, it will just get better.

Is there a point where you feel like it slows down too much or does it hold interest?
It held interest for me all the way through.  

I tried to do more showing and less telling - please let me know if I'm getting closer to the mark.
I didn't feel like it was particularly tell-y.  (And having not read the first version, I can't comment on the relative tell-y-ness.)  I do think your descriptions still need work though - sometimes they seem off tone for the scene, and sometimes we're just missing details.  I'll try to show you what I mean:

A woman stood before them, another Phearisan. Maykn could tell she was Nobility by her decorative white dress and lavish jewelry. A sinuous tattooed pattern covered the entirety of her bald head.
The Ortans both just stood there in shock, mouths gaping. Maykn imagined his facial expression probably looked similar. Nobles didn't enter the Dregs district. Not ever.
Show us their shock before you describe the woman.  The description of her seems matter-of-fact.  Also, I expect Maykn's shock to register before any of the details.

Maykn woke against cold stone floors...
The description of Maykn waking up was, at least for me, the weakest part of the chapter.  I wasn't buying into his feelings here.  I'm having trouble identifying exactly why, other than you describe what he sees and what he does without including how it's making him feel. You do say things like, "His head felt like it would split at any moment," but I think I'm missing the tone of hurting in this passage.  When you describe him fidgeting, I want to feel how he's trying to ignore his throbbing head while absently picking at his nails, but he's trembling so hard he can barely make two of his fingers meet.  And if he's cold and hurting all over, that will affect how his thoughts come through his head.  They might be slower, or more desperate, or he might have trouble putting two thoughts together.  (This is a hard thing to do well!) 

"I'm sorry."  The delicate tone whipped his head up. ...
This passage just needs more details.  At first I wasn't sure if he could see the woman or not, and I was never 100% sure if it was the same woman he saw earlier.  I'm not sure why he thinks she's his age, either.  And what makes him think of that detail here, when he's in lots of pain and really mad at her?
 

In line comments on grammar and punctuation (not exhaustive - I'm sure I missed some things):

"I can smell your discomfort." The Vasin led them to the temple with his hands clasped behind his back...

She merely continued to read, focusing on what appeared to be a single passage in an old book.

Her Phearisan eyes a solid black with no visible whites. (<-- missing a verb here)

Maykn stood slowly, taking the chance to rub the lingering pain his neck.

Maykn couldn't feel anything(no comma) but his accelerated breathing.

The officers’ fingers dug into his arms and pulled them back painfully.

He looked to his partner before turning back to the Nobel.
A few times, you type Nobel instead of Noble.

"Take the Dreg directly to the Inquisitor. I believe he just finished with the last."
This seems like a comment that warrants a reaction from Maykn, but instead he just notices her hands.

Maykn looked back up at her, making eye contact. She backhanded him, spraying stars across his vision.
Here's a tip about when to include a comma.  If you can re-work the sentence to use an "and," it needs a comma.  For example, you could write, "Maykn looked up at her and made eye contact.  She backhanded him and sprayed stars across his vision."  When you take out the "and"s and change the verbs to "-ing" verbs, you need to add a comma as well.

Some containers contained a clear liquid.
Might I suggest "held" a clear liquid?

The Ortan's guided him to a beat-up metal chair. They removed Maykn's hand clasps and pushed him in. They bound his hands with similar clasps attached to the chair. Maykn wriggled in the chair against the rigid, flat surface of the metal chair.
Too many "chair"s!

Maykn tasted the revolution in his mouth...
Hehehe I think you mean "revulsion."  Revolution in his mouth makes me think of a cheesy commercial for soda.

 

Well, that ended up being really long.  But that's because I liked it and I want it to be better!  Hope something in there is helpful.

[kais]

Oooh, revisions. I always get excited about revisions!

Overall

This is much better than last time, for sure! It flows better, and there was decent tension until the last two pages. I did notice though that you're writing in 'male gaze' (which isn't exclusive to men, plenty of women do it, too). At first I thought it was because Makyn only dialogues with women, so it would make sense for him to see them in more detail, but then the torturer isn't details at all, nor is Makyn. The women, on the other hand, are well detailed on their beauty but not much else. Something to be aware of, for later.

On showing, not telling

Getting better! Still rough areas, but you're making progress

Tension holding

Pretty well until the last two to three pages. I agree with @Hobbit that the wake up scene was by far the weakest. I was unconvinced he had been tortured at all.

Punctuation
I detailed an area below for you.

As I go

- you're still struggling with your when to use a period after a dialogue tag, and when to use a full stop. "This is an instance of when you would use a comma," she said in an authorial tone. "This is an example of when to use a full stop." She continued typing. "Now, there are some nuances, of course. Sentences that end in question marks, for instance, are confusing." The author cleared her throat. "Can you spot the differences?" she asked.

- page 1: He tried unsuccessfully... is telling, not showing. Show me that he isn't in control of his emotions.

- page two: so, I'm confused. It might be WRS, or it might be that the characters didn't grip me enough first time around to remember them. But these names and characters... who are these people? Where are we? I'm so confused.

- page four: the inevitability of his death should be brought out more in actions and thoughts, I think, before it is so broadly stated

- page five: redundancy on 'subtle'

- page eight: skimming over the torture is fine, but waking up in a cell and not getting any sort of lingering information on pain and experience loses all the built tension

- page ten: tension is gone at this point. Narrative wandering

[TKWade]

6 hours ago, Hobbit said:

leaving out details, using vague or generic descriptions, sentence structure, etc.  But you’ve got a good story here, and once you iron out your delivery, it will just get better.

 

I think this is going to be one of those things that just comes down to time spent practising and writing. I'll improve, but writing technicalities have ALWAYS been difficult for me. No matter how many books, articles or posts I read about sentence structure it just doesn't seem to be clicking.

 

6 hours ago, Hobbit said:

Show us their shock before you describe the woman.  The description of her seems matter-of-fact.  Also, I expect Maykn's shock to register before any of the details.

Thank you! I will edit!

6 hours ago, Hobbit said:

The description of Maykn waking up was, at least for me, the weakest part of the chapter.  I wasn't buying into his feelings here.  I'm having trouble identifying exactly why, other than you describe what he sees and what he does without including how it's making him feel. You do say things like, "His head felt like it would split at any moment," but I think I'm missing the tone of hurting in this passage.  When you describe him fidgeting, I want to feel how he's trying to ignore his throbbing head while absently picking at his nails, but he's trembling so hard he can barely make two of his fingers meet.  And if he's cold and hurting all over, that will affect how his thoughts come through his head.  They might be slower, or more desperate, or he might have trouble putting two thoughts together.  (This is a hard thing to do well!) 

 

Kaisa mentioned this right after you. I need to read through this part and reworks I think. Maybe I can find some first person accounts of experienced torture because I was just having a difficult time visualising exactly how he might feel and at the same time what type of torture. It's something I need to work out.

6 hours ago, Hobbit said:

In line comments on grammar and punctuation (not exhaustive - I'm sure I missed some things):

"I can smell your discomfort." The Vasin led them to the temple with his hands clasped behind his back...

She merely continued to read, focusing on what appeared to be a single passage in an old book.

Her Phearisan eyes a solid black with no visible whites. (<-- missing a verb here)

Maykn stood slowly, taking the chance to rub the lingering pain his neck.

Maykn couldn't feel anything(no comma) but his accelerated breathing.

The officers’ fingers dug into his arms and pulled them back painfully.

 

This was incredibly helpful for me - thank you!

6 hours ago, Hobbit said:

A few times, you type Nobel instead of Noble.

Fixed! LOL

6 hours ago, Hobbit said:

This seems like a comment that warrants a reaction from Maykn, but instead he just notices her hands.

Ah, good catch - will edit.

6 hours ago, Hobbit said:

Maykn looked back up at her, making eye contact. She backhanded him, spraying stars across his vision.
Here's a tip about when to include a comma.  If you can re-work the sentence to use an "and," it needs a comma.  For example, you could write, "Maykn looked up at her and made eye contact.  She backhanded him and sprayed stars across his vision."  When you take out the "and"s and change the verbs to "-ing" verbs, you need to add a comma as well.

 

VERY helpful - thank you!

6 hours ago, Hobbit said:

Might I suggest "held" a clear liquid?

I like it - i hated that i used contain twice like that but my brain wasn't coming up with a word.

6 hours ago, Hobbit said:

Too many "chair"s!

Yikes! i'll fix this, oops!

7 hours ago, Hobbit said:

Hehehe I think you mean "revulsion."  Revolution in his mouth makes me think of a cheesy commercial for soda.

Another oops - hah.

7 hours ago, Hobbit said:

But that's because I liked it and I want it to be better!  Hope something in there is helpful.

Thank you so much for reading it and the detailed crit it was super helpful and I'll keep them coming!

[TKWade]

1 hour ago, kaisa said:

 

Oooh, revisions. I always get excited about revisions!

 

 

Honestly, I feel like I have a much better time with revisions because the first draft feels more like a detailed outline of where I'm trying to go and just generally feeling out the direction of the characters. So I enjoy going back through and fleshing out scenes and fixing problems because I have something more to work with. 

 

1 hour ago, kaisa said:

I did notice though that you're writing in 'male gaze' (which isn't exclusive to men, plenty of women do it, too). At first I thought it was because Makyn only dialogues with women, so it would make sense for him to see them in more detail, but then the torturer isn't details at all, nor is Makyn. The women, on the other hand, are well detailed on their beauty but not much else. Something to be aware of, for later.

4

I think I do write in a males gaze - I can definitely see it. That being said - thought I gave a decent description of the Torturer, but maybe I need to do more - but it was definitely more than not at all.

eg. "A withered-looking Vasin with slick black fur stood next to a table.";

"The Vasin appeared to be mixing something at the moment while talking to himself and shaking his oily head.";

"He smiled broadly showing off his gnarled and rotted teeth."

Is that what you're looking for or are looking for a more concrete description of both the species and the character specifically?

I did purposefully describe Lillian the way I did because I'm toying with a romance possibility there.

I will try to keep my male gaze issues in mind when describing both women and non-women characters. Thank you for checking me on it!

1 hour ago, kaisa said:

Pretty well until the last two to three pages. I agree with @Hobbit that the wake up scene was by far the weakest. I was unconvinced he had been tortured at all.

Yeah I definitely need to do something about this!

1 hour ago, kaisa said:

- page two: so, I'm confused. It might be WRS, or it might be that the characters didn't grip me enough first time around to remember them. But these names and characters... who are these people? Where are we? I'm so confused.

 

What is WRS? The characters in this scene are the Vasin from chapter one and the two Ortan's who picked up Maykn from his home at the end of chapter 1. They are with the Potent. I may need to provide more information on who the Potent really is and her overarching role in Coreen, but to this point it isn't really relevant. What do you think?

1 hour ago, kaisa said:

- page four: the inevitability of his death should be brought out more in actions and thoughts, I think, before it is so broadly stated

I change this, thank you!

 

1 hour ago, kaisa said:

- page five: redundancy on 'subtle'

Eep!

 

1 hour ago, kaisa said:

Narrative wandering

What do you mean by narrative wandering?

Thanks again Kaisa!

[kais]

20 hours ago, TKWade said:

r are looking for a more concrete description of both the species and the character specifically?

I think its because the females are described sort of all at once in a large dump, but the Vasin is here and there. So to me, that reads as 'I immediately comment on women appearances because that is what I first notice because they are not the norm,' in contrast to the Vasin, which is much more 'here is this male character and implied appearance of normality except where I select small areas to call out'.

To be fair, it's minor male gaze, and not something that would make me put the book down. But it would make me read more cautiously and be concerned about if the female characters were going to have agency or not.

20 hours ago, TKWade said:

What is WRS?

Weekly Reader Syndrome

20 hours ago, TKWade said:

What do you think?

One of the issues with WRS is that unless the characters make a really strong impact upon us, the readers, we don't remember them, their goals, or their names from week to week. You can use WRS as an indicator of when your writing isn't having a strong impact. We should be able to trigger remember once we're a page or two in to a story, at the very least.

20 hours ago, TKWade said:

What do you mean by narrative wandering?

Your narrative wanders when there is no longer a clear flow or purpose. In LoTR, this is just part of the writing style, but in modern writing agents, especially of new writers, like a tight, well focused story. If your plot is about saving puppies from a fire, and then you spend half of a chapter chatting up a bar owner (who is in no way able to help you, or the puppies, and isn't forwarding your character), your narrative is wandering. It is usually the result of a writer not really knowing where the narrative is going, and doing exploratory writing. I only flag it so you can clean it up in edits. Lord knows I do plenty of exploratory writing myself so I have wandering narratives all over the place.

[TKWade]

2 hours ago, kaisa said:

Vasin, which is much more 'here is this male character and implied appearance of normality except where I select small areas to call out'

I think I need to flesh out the Vasin better because while the two who are in the story happen to be male - they are not at all human like and there for don't have an implied appearance of normality - they're bestial.

In regards to women, I can definitely see what you mean and this is just going to take time and practice on my part. I have what I think is a good reason for Lillian and I need to make sure I really include Stephain in this because they're twins in the same vein. They're both supposed to be crazy attractive individuals kind of like Galad in WoT. 

[Robinski]

On 13/12/2016 at 1:36 AM, kaisa said:

"This is an instance of when you would use a comma," she said in an authorial tone. "This is an example of when to use a full stop." She continued typing. "Now, there are some nuances, of course. Sentences that end in question marks, for instance, are confusing." The author cleared her throat. "Can you spot the differences?" she asked.

Lol - nice one, teach!!  

[Robinski]

On 14/12/2016 at 2:12 AM, TKWade said:

I think I need to flesh out the Vasin better

Yeah - I kinda think you need to flesh out all the races more, just little details, not big tracts of text, but touch points that anchor the races and geography of the world, I feel.

[Robinski]

Change of tack for my catch-up, seems more logical now to go through the submissions for each work, rather than jumping from one to another so, I’ll go on to Chapter 3 after this.

• I really like the epigraph, it’s very nicely phrased and captures a mood of resignation very well, I think. It reminds me a little of the narration in Jeff Wayne’s World of the Worlds, which is done by Richard Burton. Good job.
• “buried and hidden” is awkward. It’s tempting to do this for emphasis, I get that too sometimes, but it usually just sounds like repetition. Pick your favourite and drop the other imho.
• “that now seemed to plague his body” – This phasing is wishy-washy. It’s something that I’m trying hard to stamp out of my writing. Words like ‘seemed’ and ‘felt’ and ‘appeared’, I think, distance the reader from the emotion and make the writing weaker. Compare with “plagued his body”, it’s so much more immediate, urgent.
• Also, he’s been through the doors a thousand times?! That’s like every day for three years, or once a week for twenty years! So, is this a regular place of worship? I would be more explicit about that.
• I like the different races, but I don’t have a clear idea of them or how they fit together, how the world is arranged.  Also, I’m thinking back to the prologue and seem to remember that the fleeing priest/scientist and his wife were a different race, humanoid, but didn’t they have blue skin and other ‘inhuman’ characteristics? Again, I just wonder how that city relates to this one. Is it the same one, or are we in a different country?
• It sounds from the description that the scar has just appears in that moment. I think it’s because you describe a change to her face first, making the next feature sound like another active change.
• Now there’s a Brotherhood, and I don’t understand what that is or how it fits in.
• “The officers’ fingers dug into his arms…”
• Why on earth would he mention the calloused hands? As a joke, chit-chat? Odd thought/comment.
• “spraying stars across his vision” – great line.
• “M. tasted the revulsion in his mouth…” – I think.
• You describe a hole for ‘refuse’ and for ‘pissing’, neither of these words seems quite right to me, somehow.
• He senses compassion, but he can’t register it? These sound like opposites. I’m confused.
• “she turned and left leaving him alone with his thoughts.” – repetition.
• At the end, here there are quite a few phrasing and grammar issues, I feel. There have been on the way, and I only comment on some of them but, again this could do with tightening up. Still, slightly unexpected happenings at the end. I like what is happening with his father, in that ‘the resistance’, or whatever they are, seem to have killed him or taken him out of necessity. That certainly would be quite a conflict.

Overall, I’m still on board. Not getting much sense of the protagonist still. He seems to act and react in absolutely the most expected way each time something happens to him, he feels like Mr. Average. Does that mean it’s easier for me imprint my reactions on him / identify with him? Dunno, I feel like I want more from him.

<R>

Edited January 31, 2017 by Robinski