A hypothesis on the Recreance

[thejopen27 he/him]

Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination. 

The Knights Radiant adhere to the philosophy that the ends do not and never will justify the means. Unlike Taravangian who is committing atrocities in the name of "The Greater Good" the KnightsRadiant are forced to work the hard way by living by ideals and honorably. But the Radiants en masse (except perhaps the Skybreakers) broke their oaths on the same day. This was after the Desolations had ended and resulted in the Nahel bonds failing and the Spren abandoning mankind. We know that a war was going on right before the Recreance and that the Radiants were fighting in the war and after they abandoned their blades and plates and left from what we see in Dalinar's vision in WoK (At least the Windrunners and theStonewards). 

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EDIT: That the Windrunners still had surges at this point is a wrench in my theory. Perhaps the Windrunners refused to participate and resigned in disgust.

What is something that would break the oaths of all of the knights at once, something that the Knights could be convinced was worth doing that would be dishonorable, that was for the Greater Good, that took the easy path. An unethical action that all the knights would do. I see two possibilities and they're related.

There are two events that have happened in the past that require great power and would seem to break the Knights first ideal. One is the shattering of the shattered plains. The other is the enslaving of the Listeners. 

I don't think it is a conincidence that the last free listeners live on the edge of the kingdom that was shattered by someone. I think Natanatan may have been figthing a war with the Listeners before the Listeners of Narak fled and abandoned civilzation, culture, and the forms and retreated into the wilderness in Dull Form. I think the Radiants were called in to stop the war of join the war and were somehow convinced that the Listeners would bring on another Desolation. I think the Radiants may have been convinced to make a preemptive strike to avoid the Desolation that may or may not be coming and destroy the Listeners entirely before they could summon a Desolation. So they shattered the Area around Stormseat by working together somehow and enslaved all the other Listeners. This stopped the threat, but was such an abhorent, deplorable, dishonorable act, such an egregious breach of the first Ideal that the Radiants agreed to do that it broke all their oaths beyond repair. 

I haven't put all the pieces together and I don't think we know enough. This is just a hypothesis. I think what broke the oaths was the result of either the breaking of Stormseat to stop the Listeners, or the enslavement of the Parshmen.

Edited December 2, 2016 by thejopen27

[Droughtbringer]

I like it, but a few things,

one; another desolation wouldn't cut it, this would have to be something bigger...say a desolation without the heralds maybe?

two; did the recreance happen all at once? I remember seeing some speculation about that somewhere...

 

But nice! I really like these ideas!

[galendo]

The problem with this is that we actually see the Recreance through Dalinar's eyes.  We see the moment when it happens, and it doesn't coincide with any sort of attack, at least on the Windrunners' and Stonewards' part.  They just cruise on in and abandon their shards.

I suppose you could salvage the theory if you suppose that they were doing something powerful and dishonorable but without obvious local effect, or if you suppose there was some sort of delay between the breaking of the Oaths and them losing their powers.  But this goes against basically everything we've seen done with Stormlight, and while we don't have much to compare with on the Oath-breaking part, it doesn't seem to match too closely with what happened with Kaladin, either.  So it doesn't seem a likely explanation to me.

[thejopen27 he/him]

5 minutes ago, galendo said:

The problem with this is that we actually see the Recreance through Dalinar's eyes.  We see the moment when it happens, and it doesn't coincide with any sort of attack, at least on the Windrunners' and Stonewards' part.  They just cruise on in and abandon their shards.

I suppose you could salvage the theory if you suppose that they were doing something powerful and dishonorable but without obvious local effect, or if you suppose there was some sort of delay between the breaking of the Oaths and them losing their powers.  But this goes against basically everything we've seen done with Stormlight, and while we don't have much to compare with on the Oath-breaking part, it doesn't seem to match too closely with what happened with Kaladin, either.  So it doesn't seem a likely explanation to me.

No, we see it's aftermath. The Windrunners and Stonewards show up and abandon their plate and blades. Maybe the Windfrunners and the Stonewards refused to participate, but resigned in disgust. I don't know, It's just a guess.

[Droughtbringer]

19 minutes ago, thejopen27 said:

No, we see it's aftermath. The Windrunners and Stonewards show up and abandon their plate and blades. Maybe the Windfrunners and the Stonewards refused to participate, but resigned in disgust. I don't know, It's just a guess.

Or it could be that they saw the cycle, The KR rise, the VoidBringers Rise, Desolation comes, they did a master strike to kill all the Parshendi, (fail to kill all) then abandon their oaths to prevent future desolations.

[thejopen27 he/him]

27 minutes ago, DroughtBringer said:

Or it could be that they saw the cycle, The KR rise, the VoidBringers Rise, Desolation comes, they did a master strike to kill all the Parshendi, (fail to kill all) then abandon their oaths to prevent future desolations.

That's more or less what I meant, except that I think Killing all the Listeners would have already been abandoning their Oaths. Killing innocents because they might become dangerous later is a pretty clear violation of Life before death, journey before destination part. And I don't believe the Radiants cause the desolations thing, or at least not entirely.

Spoilers for Edgedancer:

Spoiler

Mostly because Ishar told that to Nalan and I think Ishar has betrayed the other Heralds.

 

Edited December 2, 2016 by thejopen27
clarity

[Massik he/him]

Maybe... But it seems pretty clear that the heralds are set on not spending a vast amount time in (basically) hell, between desolations.  That's what they seem to be abandoning.  

Without their patrons, the KR perhaps give up.

 

Edited December 2, 2016 by Massik

[thejopen27 he/him]

2 hours ago, Massik said:

Maybe... But it seems pretty clear that the heralds are set on not spending a vast amount time in (basically) hell, between desolations.  That's what they seem to be abandoning.  

Without their patrons, the KR perhaps give up.

 

But they all gave up? All at once? They all willingly killed their Spren and abandoned Roshar to war and chaosin their absence?

Edited December 2, 2016 by thejopen27

[Massik he/him]

3 hours ago, thejopen27 said:

But they all gave up? All at once? They all willingly killed their Spren and abandoned Roshar to war and chaosin their absence?

All but Taln, ya?

How many times did they go to that place after dying, or winning, or both?  How many millennia total were they in constant suffering?

The others had talked about it and the lead Herald, Jezrien waited for Kalek, who was the last to show up to tell him what he the others had, regretfully, decided.  They didn't just coincidentally give up, randomly, or seperately.  They came to a concensus about it.  

Let's remember that it all starts with a POV from Kalek.  His internal thoughts are known, and he just doesn't want to go back to a torturous damnation for another thousand years, only escaping such to fight again before repeating the cycle no matter the outcome of the desolation.

Not only was it bound to happen, it is a (the) plot device that sets up the entire series.  You can't have protagonists struggling to uncover the mysteries of an unknown ancient magic on their own if the Heralds are there to help all along and if the KR never dissolved.  It's neccessary for the story.

Edited December 2, 2016 by Massik

[thejopen27 he/him]

7 hours ago, Massik said:

All but Taln, ya?

How many times did they go to that place after dying, or winning, or both?  How many millennia total were they in constant suffering?

The others had talked about it and the lead Herald, Jezrien waited for Kalek, who was the last to show up to tell him what he the others had, regretfully, decided.  They didn't just coincidentally give up, randomly, or seperately.  They came to a concensus about it.  

Let's remember that it all starts with a POV from Kalek.  His internal thoughts are known, and he just doesn't want to go back to a torturous damnation for another thousand years, only escaping such to fight again before repeating the cycle no matter the outcome of the desolation.

Not only was it bound to happen, it is a (the) plot device that sets up the entire series.  You can't have protagonists struggling to uncover the mysteries of an unknown ancient magic on their own if the Heralds are there to help all along and if the KR never dissolved.  It's neccessary for the story.

I'm talking about the Radiants, not the Heralds. The Recreance was perhaps hundreds or thousands of years after the final desolation.  Who were the Radiants fighting against so long after the Desolation. Were they embroiled in inter-kingdom politics? Were they forced to slaughter innocents in war? Without their higher purpose were they slowly tarnished by the mud of human struggle?

[Massik he/him]

49 minutes ago, thejopen27 said:

I'm talking about the Radiants, not the Heralds. The Recreance was perhaps hundreds or thousands of years after the final desolation.  Who were the Radiants fighting against so long after the Desolation. Were they embroiled in inter-kingdom politics? Were they forced to slaughter innocents in war? Without their higher purpose were they slowly tarnished by the mud of human struggle?

http://coppermind.net/wiki/Last_Desolation 

The Aharietiam,  where the Heralds quit, as 4500 years before the events of WoK, and no desolations happened after it.  This is why Nale is killing potential Radiants; he thinks he can stop it, and deosn't believe another has actually come.  

The Recreance happened a few centuries later.  Granted, no one knows why the KR quit, but I habe a feeling with no desolations and no heralds, they gave up.  The KR were formed to fight in desolations.  No desolations, no KR.

Edited December 2, 2016 by Massik

[thejopen27 he/him]

8 minutes ago, Massik said:

http://coppermind.net/wiki/Last_Desolation 

The Aharietiam,  where the Heralds quit, as 4500 years before the events of WoK, and no desolations happened after it.  This is why Nale is killing potential Radiants; he thinks he can stop it, and deosn't believe another has actually come.  

The Recreance happened a few centuries later.  Granted, no one knows why the KR quit, but I habe a feeling with no desolations and no heralds, they gave up.  The KR were formed to fight in desolations.  No desolations, no KR.

But if they just gave up, why did they all do it at once? Why shatter their oaths and kill their Spren. I also think Nalan has been mislead because 

Spoiler

Edgedancer Spoilers: Ishar has been lying to him and Nale was only killing Radiants because Ishar told him it would stop the desolation. 

 

[Massik he/him]

I may have to do a re-read of edgedancer, but I took it as they were simply wrong.  

I think fOr the KR, the spren abandoned the KR.  Wss there a need for the KR to stay in tact after the last desolation?  The whole point of the heralds was to train and lead a new group of KR at each desolation.  Without the desolations, and heralds to be the brunt of Odium's rage, there is an imbalance.  It's implied that the spren forsee Taln breaking, and odium being free to destroy Roshar. If this is true, the spren may have given up on humanity winning.  And if there is any grai  of truth to vorinism, they wouldn't abide by corrupted KR.  

Think Syl leaving Kal when he aboit breaks his oath.  Think the Stormfather trying to forbid spren from bonding, and the spren going behind his back to do so, only when they know the true desolation is on the horizon.  

Edited December 2, 2016 by Massik

[thejopen27 he/him]

1 hour ago, Massik said:

I may have to do a re-read of edgedancer, but I took it as they were simply wrong.  

I think fOr the KR, the spren abandoned the KR.  Wss there a need for the KR to stay in tact after the last desolation?  The whole point of the heralds was to train and lead a new group of KR at each desolation.  Without the desolations, and heralds to be the brunt of Odium's rage, there is an imbalance.  It's implied that the spren forsee Taln breaking, and odium being free to destroy Roshar. If this is true, the spren may have given up on humanity winning.  And if there is any grai  of truth to vorinism, they wouldn't abide by corrupted KR.  

Think Syl leaving Kal when he aboit breaks his oath.  Think the Stormfather trying to forbid spren from bonding, and the spren going behind his back to do so, only when they know the true desolation is on the horizon.  

But the spren didn't go anywhere, the Spren died. All of them. And the Spren say over and over again that it was people that broke their oaths to Spren. Syl is pulled away from kaladin by the Stormfather because the Spren are Gunshy after what happened last time. The Radiants lasted for hundreds or thousands of years after the Last Desolation and suddenly, all at once the entire order collapsed because all at once the knights all broke their oaths. 

[Massik he/him]

hundreds, def not thousands.  the radiants disbanded "a few centuries" after the last desolation.

[Spoolofwhool]

4 minutes ago, Massik said:

hundreds, def not thousands.  the radiants disbanded "a few centuries" after the last desolation.

Do you have a source on that? Because the best I've seen is a WoB that says that the Recreance was over 1000 years after the end of the Last Desolation.

Edited December 2, 2016 by Spoolofwhool

[thejopen27 he/him]

We don't know, but we know the Radiants existed for a significant amount of time after the Heralds and they suddenly, and without explanation stopped.

[kari-no-sugata]

I vaguely remember some WoB from about 2-3 years ago that suggested the Recreance was about 1500 years ago. Something like that.

 

[DannyJames84]

Did the KR break their oaths or did their spren tell them to?

No evidence for this, but if it were the case, who would know?  it is apparent that spren in the physical realm had  to leave the cognitive, so maybe the non bonded spren assumed it was the Knights idea, not the sprens.

[Djarskublar he/him]

I don't think the spren would collectively suggest assisted suicide, and then all of their Knight go along with it. That's pretty ridiculous. Especially since the dead spren seem a lot like the Hoed. I wouldn't wish that on my lifelong partner and friend. I wouldn't even wish that on the vast majority of the people I hate...

The Knights were the ones who decided to do this. They had to see an outcome if they didn't participate in the Recreance that was worse than if they did.

[thejopen27 he/him]

On 12/5/2016 at 11:29 AM, Djarskublar said:

I don't think the spren would collectively suggest assisted suicide, and then all of their Knight go along with it. That's pretty ridiculous. Especially since the dead spren seem a lot like the Hoed. I wouldn't wish that on my lifelong partner and friend. I wouldn't even wish that on the vast majority of the people I hate...

The Knights were the ones who decided to do this. They had to see an outcome if they didn't participate in the Recreance that was worse than if they did.

Which is what I was trying to do. What would be something terrible, that would break all the orders oaths simultaneously, that the knights might see as worthwhile. Enslave the Listeners to stop a potential desolation, or destroy a whole kingdom to stop someone who was trying to 

[The One Who Connects he/him]

On 12/2/2016 at 3:38 PM, Massik said:

hundreds, def not thousands.  the radiants disbanded "a few centuries" after the last desolation.

On 12/2/2016 at 3:43 PM, Spoolofwhool said:

Do you have a source on that? Because the best I've seen is a WoB that says that the Recreance was over 1000 years after the end of the Last Desolation.

This is a post i made in the Timeline Confusion thread

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Best we've got it these WoB's: Here, here and here

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Question

Was the Almighty still alive when the Heralds packed it in, and did the Radiants pack it in in direct response to what the Heralds did?

Brandon Sanderson

The Radiants did NOT abandon their post as a response to the Heralds. The Radiants abandoned it for some other reason which will become evident eventually. The Almighty was still around when the Heralds did their thing.

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zas678

How long ago was the Recreance from modern day or from the Heirocracy?

Brandon Sanderson

The Heirocracy is in recent history, the Recreance is in ancient history.

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Argent

In terms of timeline-- So The Way of Kings and the Stormlight Archive takes place 1173-4 right now, how far ago, approximately, was the Recreance?

Brandon Sanderson

So you-- Let’s see-- Heralds leave at what, 4500?

Argent

That’s what it says.

Brandon Sanderson

So the Heralds leave at 4500 and we’re at 11--

Argent

So we are at 5500 years after--

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. So Recreance is more recent than late.

Argent

So… In the thousands--

Brandon Sanderson

I’m going to have to pull out the timeline.

Argent

But it’s not like three hundred years ago.

Brandon Sanderson

It’s not like three hundred years ago, but it’s also not like 4000 years ago.

Argent

Okay, so from the middle--

Brandon Sanderson

The Hierocracy happened after (the Recreance) and the Hierocracy was a couple hundred years ago. It’s longer than that even, it’s like five or six hundred years ago I think.

Recreance is minimum 700+ years ago, considered "ancient history" by brandon, but also "more recent than late." Personally, that makes it sound like ... 2,000-2,500ish? Opinions, comments, concerns?

 

[Spoolofwhool]

55 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

This is a post i made in the Timeline Confusion thread

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Yeah, that's where I drew my interpretation of at least one millennia after the Last Desolation, though 2 - 2.5 seems more correct.

[BeskarKomrk he/him]

I generally think it's 2000+ years before the books. We know Honor was alive for the Recreance and he was Splintered "millennia ago", which I take to mean greater than two thousand years.

[hoser he/him]

On 12/5/2016 at 9:29 AM, Djarskublar said:

I don't think the spren would collectively suggest assisted suicide, and then all of their Knight go along with it. That's pretty ridiculous. Especially since the dead spren seem a lot like the Hoed. I wouldn't wish that on my lifelong partner and friend. I wouldn't even wish that on the vast majority of the people I hate...

The Knights were the ones who decided to do this. They had to see an outcome if they didn't participate in the Recreance that was worse than if they did.

There are questions.  

1.  Is Dalinar's vision true?  Simplest assumption is that Tanavast represented it accurately, Stormfather conveyed it faithfully and nobody (like Odium or the Heralds) tampered with it.

2. Did the other 7 orders quit simultaneously with the Stonewards and Windrunners?  Simplest assumption is yes.

The renunciation of knighthood was the Recreance.  The Windrunners fly in, all glowy and awesome.  They are functioning Knights.  The Recreance hasn't happened yet.  They take off their armor and drop the swords.  The Recreance is complete.  Nothing else happens on-screen.  

There was a high degree of coordination.  Possibly every knight in 9 orders reached the consensus and acted simultaneously.  That seems like a tremendous amount of discussion and planning.

The bonded spren must have known about the plan.  How do you make plans without something that is part of your mind knowing? 

The bonded spren may well have agreed with the plan.  Syl can appear to anyone she wants and communicate.  If the spren objected, they could have communicated their dissent or not cooperated.

The Recreance was part of a plan.  Some swords and armor were left  deliberately in the hands of people not bound by oaths to use them responsibly.  What could go wrong?  The weapons and armor could have been hidden.  Some fabrials were passed on.  Other fabrials were hidden or destroyed.  Most Oathgates were decommissioned, but not one.  The Way of Kings and the ancient language were preserved at Vanrial.