Nicrosil on Roshar

[SpeakoftheDeval]

Concept: Worldhopper decides to hemalurgically spike a radiant for nicrosil feruchemy. Radiant sucks up and stores all the Stormlight from a Highstorm in his nicrosilmind. Radiant takes it all out in one go. This makes radiant a sliver.

Could this work?

Actually, does it have to be a radiant? You need a nahel bond to access surges with a spren. but with that level of Investiture couldn't a normal person make themselves a surgebinder through the Heralds way.

[Yata he/him]

I am unsure if this may work (honestly I think the amount of Investiture in enough to become a Sliver, but I can't be sure)...if you want to remove the hemalurgy, you may re-create the hypotesis with "A Soulbearer held an Honorblade and......".

Now I can't say if you can store Stormlight in Metals, for the same reason I think you can't use well Stormlight to Awakening...This kind of raw Investiture isn't sticky, it would leak away from the metal (and any other No-Polestone material).

Anyway I don't think you gain Surgebinding with this method, you will not gain anything except maybe the Sliver status for the amount of Investiture you held

Edited November 21, 2016 by Yata

[manukos he/him]

12 minutes ago, Yata said:

 

Now I can't say if you can store Stormlight in Metals, for the same reason I think you can use well Stormlight to Awakening...This kind of raw Investiture isn't sticky, it would leak away from the metal (and any other No-Polestone material)

i never understood what soul bearers are supposed to do  .
how do you store some versions of investiture , and what can you do with it ?
while others like breath can be stored by themselves others like alomancy seem inconceivable.

[Spoolofwhool]

Once again, comes down the the question of whether you can store kinetic investiture in a nicrosil metalmind, or even forms of innate investiture unrelated to the ability to use a manifestation of investiture. Since I don't think this is the case, I don't think what is described is possible. 

If it were possible, I don't think it would work anyways, since the stormlight would probably be very poorly held in the nicrosil and would probably leech out due to the natural mechanics of stormlight. In any case, as Yata points out, simply gaining a large amount of investiture wouldn't turn you into a surgebinding, and would make you a sliver at best. I'm not sure what you mean by someone becoming a surgebinder by the way the Heralds do, since they gain surgebinding from their honorblades, nor are they slivers. Also, you would need the basic ability to internalize stormlight in the first place so that you can store it. 

tl;dr Not viable since I don't think nicrosil feruchemy works that way. Even if it did, other mechanics would prevent much of what you describe.

Just now, harambe said:

i never understood what soul bearers are supposed to do  .
how do you store some versions of investiture , and what can you do with it ?
while others like breath can be stored by themselves others like alomancy seem inconceivable.

The ability to perform allomancy is part of you innate investiture, which can be stored. Breath and stormlight are kinetic investiture.

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

I just posted a table that seeks to address this question and some similar ones I have heard.

As I understand it, a soulbearer with an honor blade could become a sliver, but by a different mechanism than you suppose. They wouldn't store up stormlight. Rather, they would store their capacity to use stormlight, and if they tapped it to become 100000x as powerful of a surgebinder in an instant, they could probably become a sliver.

Mind you, it would take a long time of storing to get that much power. Probably it would take more time than a normal human lifespan. The only way this could possibly work is if you used compounding, or if you extended your life span and stored up your surgebinding potential for centuries...

[cometaryorbit]

4 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

The ability to perform allomancy is part of you innate investiture, which can be stored. Breath and stormlight are kinetic investiture.

Stormlight, sure, but I think Breath is Innate Investiture. You're born with it, and unlike Stormlight (or the power drawn in and used in Allomancy), it doesn't 'dissipate' upon use.

It's not clear what Nicrosil Feruchemy can store beyond the ability to use Allomancy or Feruchemy.

If you had a Hemalurgic Iron spike, could you store the extra strength in a Nicrosilmind? If so, if someone pulled out the spike while you were storing, would it still have power if they stuck it into themselves?

 

 

[Spoolofwhool]

40 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Stormlight, sure, but I think Breath is Innate Investiture. You're born with it, and unlike Stormlight (or the power drawn in and used in Allomancy), it doesn't 'dissipate' upon use.

Stormlight dissipates because that is a natural property of it. It has been compared to breath on that regard. In addition, breath does dissipate, it just stays a lot longer, but too much use of it through awakening will cause it to decay. Also, I don't think innate means it stays around. I think innate means that it is a part of your spiritual and provides spiritual attributes, while kinetic is for investiture which is used during manifestations of investiture, or other things.

48 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

If you had a Hemalurgic Iron spike, could you store the extra strength in a Nicrosilmind? If so, if someone pulled out the spike while you were storing, would it still have power if they stuck it into themselves?

I don't think so because that falls into the purview of pewter feruchemy. If you're talking about somehow storing the hemalurgic charge in nicrosil, no, because that's likely kinetic investiture. If someone pulled out your iron hemalurgic spike while you're storing 20% strength into pewter, then I imagine the amount being stored would adjust to the new maximum, or the percent would adjust to maintain the amount stored. 

[cometaryorbit]

28 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Stormlight dissipates because that is a natural property of it. It has been compared to breath on that regard.

Well, sure, Stormlight's dissipation is inherent - but I don't think the WoB is specific enough to rule out the possibility that Stormlight inherently dissipates because it's kinetic Investiture and Breath inherently doesn't because it's innate Investiture.

I don't think the WOBs on the subject really allow for Breath not to be Innate.

Quote

Chaos

Is there a Cosmere-specific term you use to describe, say, a Shard's power inside someone? For example, people on Scadrial had little bits of Preservation in them that made them sentient (and, with enough Preservation, Allomancy). This obviously doesn't make these people Slivers or Splinters, so I was just wondering if you had a word for it.

Brandon Sanderson

In my own terms, I refer to all of this as types of investiture. The degree, and effects, can be very different - but those people are invested. I term this Innate Investiture, and it is similar to what happens with people on Nalthis. That is also innate.

http://theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=977

(my emphasis)

Quote

Question

Do all the humans have innate Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

I believe that they all do. I don't think that you've seen anyone without innate Investiture yet. [Drabs] do not have innate Investiture. And on Scadrial they have the pieces of Ruin and Preservation in them. And they do have it on Roshar.

Question

Which Shard is that?

Brandon Sanderson

You'll have to RAFO

http://theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1076

(my emphasis)

35 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

I don't think so because that falls into the purview of pewter feruchemy. If you're talking about somehow storing the hemalurgic charge in nicrosil, no, because that's likely kinetic investiture.

Koloss strength is specifically described in the HOA epigraphs as being the piece of Preservation in someone's soul torn out and stapled into someone else. That's definitely Innate Investiture.

[Spoolofwhool]

32 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Koloss strength is specifically described in the HOA epigraphs as being the piece of Preservation in someone's soul torn out and stapled into someone else. That's definitely Innate Investiture.

Yes, but as I have been saying, I don't think nicrosil stores any type of innate investiture, just that related to using a manifestation of investiture. 

Good WoBs. I'll think on my response. My only comment is I would suggest discounting the "drabs have no innate investiture" in that, since it is extremely suspect and flies in the face of how we understand realmatics. Innate investiture is what gives the identity, connection, sapience, etc of entities. Since drabs are clearly sapient, and possibly have identity and connection, they have innate investiture. 

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

Hm... I am starting to suspect that Brandon defines innate investiture as all investiture that is part of someone and that originates from a shard.

At any rate, @cometaryorbit those WoBs reinforce some of my suppositions about the mechanics of magic...

Edited November 22, 2016 by Drake Marshall

[Spoolofwhool]

17 minutes ago, Drake Marshall said:

Hm... I am starting to suspect that Brandon defines innate investiture as all investiture that is part of someone and that originates from a shard.

The second part is not true for certain since the power of allomancy originates from a shard and is kinetic investiture. Also, that would then put into question how beings predated the Splintering if they couldn't have innate investiture then. The first part I'll admit is a gray area, but it comes down to how you define "part of someone". If you can give it away, is it part of you? If you can internalize it, is it part of you? If you're born with it, is it part of you? 

The way I see it, innate investiture is what makes up your spiritweb, your spiritual aspect. All things are created or born with a certain amount, but that amount can change.

Edited November 22, 2016 by Spoolofwhool

[cometaryorbit]

2 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Yes, but as I have been saying, I don't think nicrosil stores any type of innate investiture, just that related to using a manifestation of investiture. 

I'm not sure there is that much of a difference.

The HOA epigraphs and Mistborn series annotations talk about Allomancy being a matter of having "more Preservation". I'm not sure 'I'm an Allomancer' is a different kind of innate Investiture than the basic bit of Preservation that all Scadrians have - it may just be a greater degree. And Hemalurgy is described in similar terms in the HOA epigraphs, stealing the Preservation in people's souls.

So, the effect is probably as you say, but that might just be a matter of storing to 0% (no Investiture at all) being fatal or bad news in some other way. Or maybe not, maybe you'd just be a Drab while storing. It doesn't necessarily mean that the "I'm an Allomancer" Investiture is different in kind from 'ordinary' Innate Investiture.

2 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

My only comment is I would suggest discounting the "drabs have no innate investiture" in that, since it is extremely suspect and flies in the face of how we understand realmatics.

There is a conflicting WoB that says the opposite - drabs have lost some of their Investiture but keep the majority.  IIRC they're both from around the same time so it's not a "Brandon changed his mind years later as more stuff got established" thing like the TenSoon talking to Vin's spirit WoB.

However, I think it's still evidence that Breaths are Innate Investiture, whether they're part or all of a Nalthian's complement of Innate Investiture.

3 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Innate investiture is what gives the identity, connection, sapience, etc of entities. Since drabs are clearly sapient, and possibly have identity and connection, they have innate investiture. 

I'd disagree. At least from the evidence of Feruchemy, Identity and Connection (and Fortune) are distinct Spiritual traits from Investiture.

There's the unbalanced Investiture sapience thing on Scadrial, but Scadrial is a bit of an exception in some ways, and it doesn't seem to be the mere presence of Investiture that's relevant there so much as the lack of balance.

[Yata he/him]

1 hour ago, cometaryorbit said:

The HOA epigraphs and Mistborn series annotations talk about Allomancy being a matter of having "more Preservation". I'm not sure 'I'm an Allomancer' is a different kind of innate Investiture than the basic bit of Preservation that all Scadrians have - it may just be a greater degree. And Hemalurgy is described in similar terms in the HOA epigraphs, stealing the Preservation in people's souls.

Be an Allomancer (Misting or Mistborn) it's not matter of Quantity of Investiture. It's a fact of Connection to Preservation (and you may say "they have more Preservation") and the twisting this carry in their SpiritWeb.

About the Innate Investiture. I always suspect that Brandon call it, the surplus of Investiture someone have, but I can't actually prove it

1 hour ago, cometaryorbit said:

I'd disagree. At least from the evidence of Feruchemy, Identity and Connection (and Fortune) are distinct Spiritual traits from Investiture.

The Spirit-Web/Soul is made of Connection and it has some "resonance" that allow it to work well with other Investiture with the same "resonance" without create Inferference. The "Resonance" is what we call "Identity"

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

16 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

The second part is not true for certain since the power of allomancy originates from a shard and is kinetic investiture. Also, that would then put into question how beings predated the Splintering if they couldn't have innate investiture then. The first part I'll admit is a gray area, but it comes down to how you define "part of someone". If you can give it away, is it part of you? If you can internalize it, is it part of you? If you're born with it, is it part of you? 

The way I see it, innate investiture is what makes up your spiritweb, your spiritual aspect. All things are created or born with a certain amount, but that amount can change.

I suspect you misunderstand what I said. I don't mean to say that "innate investiture" is only described as something from a shard. Rather I mean to say that innate investiture is both part of a person and from a shard. Like what Yata said, its more the surplus investiture. Because... It doesn't sound like Sanderson classifies the spark of life as "innate investiture."

[Spoolofwhool]

1 hour ago, Drake Marshall said:

I suspect you misunderstand what I said. I don't mean to say that "innate investiture" is only described as something from a shard. Rather I mean to say that innate investiture is both part of a person and from a shard. Like what Yata said, its more the surplus investiture. Because... It doesn't sound like Sanderson classifies the spark of life as "innate investiture."

Okay. I did misunderstand you. However, that still doesn't counter my argument that it doesn't explain how being removed from shards are sapient with innate investiture. Even if you expanded it to "containing Adonalsium's investiture", that still wouldn't work since everything is basically Adonalsium's investiture. Therefore, your definition of it doesn't work. 

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

Presumably, there was some kind of basic human template in the cosmere.

I reach the conclusion that the things nicrosil stores are pretty much any part of the spirit web that isn't in that template.

Feruchemy can store all these parts of the spirit... All these natural parts of the spirit... I believe nicrosil is the metal that stores whatever additional parts to a human's spirit may exist.

Typically in the cosmere, those other parts of someone's spirit tend to grant them some kind of magical power.

But I don't believe it would be exclusive to that.

Edited November 23, 2016 by Drake Marshall

[Spoolofwhool]

I think you mixed up topics where we're discussing. This is the one we we're talking about innate investiture, not nicrosil feruchemy.