Some nitpicks on Bondsmiths.

[Djarskublar he/him]

But as for the Bondsmiths, they had members only three, which number was not uncommon for them; nor did they seek to increase this by great bounds, for during the times of Madasa, only one of their order was in continual accompaniment of Urithiru and its thrones. Their spren was understood to be specific, and to persuade them to grow to the magnitude of the other orders was seen as seditious.

—Words of Radiance, chapter 16, page 14

This is the entire subject of this thread-- Bondsmiths. This quote has always bothered me, since other people seem to understand it so differently. I think it has some ramifications for some speculation I've seen that simply hasn't been discussed.

First, a point about the grammar. I will assume that the grammar in this quote to be correct, and that this means we can draw conclusions based off it. This lends a great deal of support in my mind to the theory that Bondsmiths only bond the Stormfather. Their spren was understood to be specific Was, not were. This is the singular form. A singular spren. To stave off counter argument ahead of time, I would say the spren for Windrunners were (and are) specific. They bond Honorspren. Were here for plural form. Just a thought here.

Now to the meat of why I made this post, the last sentence also says that to grow the membership to the magnitude of the other orders was seditious. I have some general ideas as to why it may have been seditious, but that is irrelevant. The important thing here is that it implies that it is possible. There could be more than three Bondsmiths, but it was seen as seditious to suggest that there should be more than three bonded. That is huge for the discussion of what the deal is with Bondsmiths. This was just something I noticed, and said to myself, hey wait a minute...

So, all you Bondsmith fanatics out there, what do you think?

[Demiandre he/him]

I wondered too about this wording, but I read it as spren is singular thus "was" is correct. Each Knight only bond one spren, and each of them is specific.

Their sprens were understood to be specific

Their spren was understood to be specific.

Whereas the Windrunner bond with Honorsprens, who are numerous, then The windrunners sprens were understood to be specific about who they bonded.

But english is not my native language, so it's really a hunch. If I try it in french, we have the same interpretations...So you are certainly right

 

[The One Who Connects he/him]

All credit goes to @Yata

Quote

It been explicity stated that there are 3 Bondsmith's Spren...This theory was debunked some time ago.

And remember than in the past Desolations, Stormfather was something "less" than the actual one....He was not merged with Tanavast's Shadow in the past (Because Honor was alive then)

EDIT: I had problem to find the reference on the Forum therefore I searched in the Brandon's reddit-chronology (where I rememeber it) to find it.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormlight_Archive/comments/4r6ds5/oathbringer_spoilers_stormlight_three_update_3/d66i11c?context=3#d66hqee

Quote

Q:The pocket companion states that:

WoR there are three spren that can bond a person to make them into a bondsmith, the Stormfather being one of them.

 As far as I recall the books implied that the number was low, and implied heavily that it was around that number in an epigraph, but didn't actually have a straight confirmation. So, should I take that as canon?

A:Yes, you can take that as canon. They came to me for that information.

 

 

[Eki]

You could interpret it as "Their type of spren was understood to be specific". I guess.

Edit: Also a possibility: the writer of the book didn't actually know. Spren like the Rider of the Storms would be unlikely to show themselves very often, and probably don't hold conversations with their Knight in public. But I guess we'll see next year.

Edited November 13, 2016 by Eki

[Djarskublar he/him]

Very well. I stand corrected about the types of spren that can bond Bondsmiths. My point that the sentence implies that more than three Bondsmiths is possible still stands. Perhaps the three spren that can bond Bondsmiths can fit multiple bonds onto their spiritweb. It still says sedition, rather than mentioning impossibility.

[1stBondsmith he/him]

A couple more notes...

Spren is the plural of spren. (like deer are deer). "I see many spren". Thus, grammatically, "Their spren..." is likely referring to multiple spren. "Their spren was an ugly type" can refer to many ugly spren possessed by people, as long as it is referring to a type together, which the quote is. Secondly, yes, it must be that there could be more than three. It may be seditious, harmful, or even referring to bonding to spren that they shouldn't (we don't know which), but there could be more than three according to that quote. Third, confirmation of an unspecified number is obviously intentional in the quote from Brandon. Three or less was common, but not a ceiling.

[VirtuousTraveller he/him]

I've wondered if the whole 3 of this passage to refer to the three shards on Roshar, that one Bondsmith is present for each shard (Honor, Cultivation, and Odium).  Perhaps there could only be one Bondsmith per shard according to the shard's rules, that only one Rosharian being/human per shard, could wield the powers and responsibilities of being a Bondsmith.

[Savanorn he/him]

6 hours ago, VirtuousTraveller said:

I've wondered if the whole 3 of this passage to refer to the three shards on Roshar, that one Bondsmith is present for each shard (Honor, Cultivation, and Odium).  Perhaps there could only be one Bondsmith per shard according to the shard's rules, that only one Rosharian being/human per shard, could wield the powers and responsibilities of being a Bondsmith.

Hmm. Maybe. But I could imagine several bondsmiths could bond their mega spren. 

Like..maybe you could have 5, but it'd be weird. You probably couldn't have 300 though. 

Speaking of spren. Syl is honourspren, a spren who is heavily aligned with honour, do we know if she is actually an Honourspren? Or is she some subtype of honourspren? Like a swellkeepstheirwordanddoestherightthing-spren?

[Yata he/him]

But Savarnorn for the Nahel Bond mechanics, this would be really weird.

(to avoid confusion I would call "Stormfather" the actual Stormfather, and "rider of the Storm" his old incarnation before the merging with Honor's Shadow)

For a moment forget the Stormfather as we know it. He is both a Spren and a Mind of someone. This allow him to remain sensient on the Physical realm without a Bond.

Rider of the Storm and the others Bondsmith's spren would no have this feature and they will need a partner to retain their Mind. The bond it's really an intruisive mechanics from the Spren's PoV....I don't think you may "grow in multiple Spirit-Web at once"

[Savanorn he/him]

13 minutes ago, Yata said:

But Savarnorn for the Nahel Bond mechanics, this would be really weird.

(to avoid confusion I would call "Stormfather" the actual Stormfather, and "rider of the Storm" his old incarnation before the merging with Honor's Shadow)

For a moment forget the Stormfather as we know it. He is both a Spren and a Mind of someone. This allow him to remain sensient on the Physical realm without a Bond.

Rider of the Storm and the others Bondsmith's spren would no have this feature and they will need a partner to retain their Mind. The bond it's really an intruisive mechanics from the Spren's PoV....I don't think you may "grow in multiple Spirit-Web at once"

Yo Yata.

Weird, yes. But not impossible?

One person can, I believe, bond mutliple spren. Unless that WoB is outdated? I'd assume the reverse was possible.

But to the point of your argument..maybe that is true of other spren, but there seem to be oddities of associated with the Stormfather at least. Like, he doesn't seem to be drawn to or required to stay near his bonder in the same way Syl or Pattern do.  Now maybe that is due to his status as a Cognitive Shadow, but maybe there is an intrinsic difference associated with mega spren?

[+hwiles]

On 11/15/2016 at 4:18 AM, Savanorn said:

Yo Yata.

Weird, yes. But not impossible?

One person can, I believe, bond mutliple spren. Unless that WoB is outdated? I'd assume the reverse was possible.

But to the point of your argument..maybe that is true of other spren, but there seem to be oddities of associated with the Stormfather at least. Like, he doesn't seem to be drawn to or required to stay near his bonder in the same way Syl or Pattern do.  Now maybe that is due to his status as a Cognitive Shadow, but maybe there is an intrinsic difference associated with mega spren?

Note too that the stormfather had already begun to bond Dalinar before Dalinar spoke the oaths, and well before the stormfather had consciously agreed to accept the bond.  The stormfather literally pursued actions that can reasonably be considered murderous toward Dalinar while they were technically bonded to some degree.  (IE: sending a storm to kill Dalinar during the Weeping...)

 

On 11/15/2016 at 3:42 AM, Savanorn said:

.......

Speaking of spren. Syl is honourspren, a spren who is heavily aligned with honour, do we know if she is actually an Honourspren? Or is she some subtype of honourspren? Like a swellkeepstheirwordanddoestherightthing-spren?

I believe WoB is that there are multiple spren who would self-identify as Honor-spren and consider other spren to be "less" of Honor than they are.  Syl is just the first one to appear on-screen.  We technically don't have any objective proof that the spren of windrunners are in fact the most closely associated with Honor as far as I'm aware (please, if you know of a WoB to the contrary now's the time to interject.)  Since Radiants werent created intentionally and possess two surges apiece, I think it's highly likely that none of them are purely of either Honor or Cultivation; they're all some crazy mashup resulting from millennia of war and the repeated splintering of enormous amounts of Investiture.

Edited November 17, 2016 by hwiles

[galendo]

1 hour ago, hwiles said:

I believe WoB is that there are multiple spren who would self-identify as Honor-spren and consider other spren to be "less" of Honor than they are.  Syl is just the first one to appear on-screen.  We technically don't have any objective proof that the spren of windrunners are in fact the most closely associated with Honor as far as I'm aware (please, if you know of a WoB to the contrary now's the time to interject.)

As far as I know, the only WoB on the subject is the following:

Spoiler

Interview: Oct 12th, 2015

Shadows of Self-Oak Brook, IL

Question

Syl identifies herself as an honorspren.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Question

Would Wyndle identify himself as a cultivation spren? [Pause]

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. I think you could say that he would.

Question

By the same logic, would a voidspren follow the same naming convention, so to speak?

Brandon Sanderson

Here's the thing. Certain spren have decided that they are the most pure forms of honor, or that they are the most pure form of whatever, where all of them are kind of... Syl's got a good argument for what she is. But there are other spren that would be like "well, I'm an honorspren too, I'm just this variety of honorspren." Does that make sense? Syl's like "I'm an American!" and I'm like "I'm an Alaskan!" Yes, you're an American. I'm an American too. It's kind of similar to that. But she would be the most pure... many would view her as the purest form. Wyndle would view himself as the purest form of a cultivation spren.

Note the part that says "But she would be the most pure...many would view her as the purest form."  It sounds like for a moment Brandon was going to confirm Syl's statement, but then decided to back off.

Even without that WoB, though, I think Syl's statement is probably reasonably correct.  Windrunners are pretty clearly Honor-aligned (much more so than, say, Lightweavers, the only other Order we've got a really good look at), and some Order has to be the most Honor-oriented of the bunch.  The Bondsmiths would be a good competitor for the title, but remember that the Stormfather is a mixture of Honor's cognitive shadow and the Rider of the Storms.  Whether he's 50/50 or some other mix, I don't find it at all unreasonable to suppose one or more of the other Orders have the Bondsmiths beat in terms of Honor-purity of their spren.

[Krandacth]

4 hours ago, hwiles said:

I believe WoB is that there are multiple spren who would self-identify as Honor-spren and consider other spren to be "less" of Honor than they are.  Syl is just the first one to appear on-screen.  We technically don't have any objective proof that the spren of windrunners are in fact the most closely associated with Honor as far as I'm aware (please, if you know of a WoB to the contrary now's the time to interject.)  Since Radiants were created intentionally and possess two surges apiece, I think it's highly likely that none of them are purely of either Honor or Cultivation; they're all some crazy mashup resulting from millennia of war and the repeated splintering of enormous amounts of Investiture.

I've always (well, since my third reread where I was questioning the "truth" as perceived by every character. Incidentally, this was around the time I joined this forum...)... Where was I?

Right. A long held belief of mine is that Syl could be best described as Protection Spren, and that High Spren are a firm contender for the title of purest Honor Spren. Historically (and mythically), the notion of honor has always been defined by a set of rules or code of conduct, and the most honorable have been those that keep to those rules even when personal feelings make that difficult or even are in direct opposition. Examples include but are not limited to King Arthur's and historically verified orders of Knights (and the codes of chivalry), as well as Samurai and other Japanese martial schools.

However, it depends on Brandon's interpretation of Honor. In more recent history, many people in the (Western) world have become disillusioned with the prevailing legal system of their country, and by extension the law on which they claim to act, due to the perceived "wrongness" of judgements that, in fact, follow the letter of the law.  Nale's behaviour thus far has already made this theme a prominent one in the SA, which is probably why Brandon said what he did, as quoted by @galendo.

Nonetheless, I still have high hopes for new/proto-Sky breakers :-)

[Savanorn he/him]

1 hour ago, Krandacth said:

I've always (well, since my third reread where I was questioning the "truth" as perceived by every character. Incidentally, this was around the time I joined this forum...)... Where was I?

Right. A long held belief of mine is that Syl could be best described as Protection Spren, and that High Spren are a firm contender for the title of purest Honor Spren. Historically (and mythically), the notion of honor has always been defined by a set of rules or code of conduct, and the most honorable have been those that keep to those rules even when personal feelings make that difficult or even are in direct opposition. Examples include but are not limited to King Arthur's and historically verified orders of Knights (and the codes of chivalry), as well as Samurai and other Japanese martial schools.

However, it depends on Brandon's interpretation of Honor. In more recent history, many people in the (Western) world have become disillusioned with the prevailing legal system of their country, and by extension the law on which they claim to act, due to the perceived "wrongness" of judgements that, in fact, follow the letter of the law.  Nale's behaviour thus far has already made this theme a prominent one in the SA, which is probably why Brandon said what he did, as quoted by @galendo.

Nonetheless, I still have high hopes for new/proto-Sky breakers :-)

I think it'd be really cool to see an actually just Skybreaker. Eventually.