PallonianFire he/him Posted November 7, 2016 Posted November 7, 2016 What's the significance of First of the Sun's moon? It seems none of the other inhabitable planets have moons, and the uninhabitable ones have moons that aren't named. Anyone think that there's a reason Nazh labeled First of the First?
Landis963 he/him Posted November 7, 2016 Posted November 7, 2016 Because that's what the people on First of the Sun call their moon. I'm not reading too much into that.
PallonianFire he/him Posted November 7, 2016 Author Posted November 7, 2016 Could very well be. I just found it really jarring on the map. It stood out in an unexpected way.
Argent he/him Posted November 7, 2016 Posted November 7, 2016 Yeah, seems a pretty straightforward way of naming things - planets are named based on their order relative to the sun, so their moons are named similarly. So I imagine Fifth of the Sun's moons will be First, Second, and Third of the Fifth respectively. I do wonder how they (or maybe Khriss, if she named them) will call the planetary rings...
Pagerunner he/him Posted November 7, 2016 Posted November 7, 2016 @Argent, does anybody even name rings in real life? @PallonianFire, I'd expect that the moons of the outer planets have names, but aren't marked on the star chart. If this system is anything like ours, the gas giants should have many more moons than just 3 or 4 apiece; the diagram might not be comprehensive, and thus only name the one relevant satellite and illustrate that the gas giants do, in fact, have moons around them.
PallonianFire he/him Posted November 7, 2016 Author Posted November 7, 2016 Just now, Pagerunner said: the diagram might not be comprehensive, and thus only name the one relevant satellite and illustrate that the gas giants do, in fact, have moons around them. Yeah. My question is how relevant is First of the First? The fact that multiple planets are inhabitable might make the moon inhabitable, too.
1stBondsmith he/him Posted November 7, 2016 Posted November 7, 2016 Has anyone pondered on the question:"How does Kriss or anyone else know the star system's makeup in such detail, if every Silverlight expedition never returned? How would anything but First of the Sun and First of the First ever be known about at this time? How do they know about other worlds inhabited by people with no perpendicularity? There must be interplanetary travel already (at the time of her writing) or this could not be known. What does that imply? Is one of the other inhabited worlds or both able to travel in space, and if so, how did Khriss or other Worldhoppers run into them? There is another story here...
Landis963 he/him Posted November 7, 2016 Posted November 7, 2016 (edited) 5 minutes ago, 1stBondsmith said: Has anyone pondered on the question:"How does Kriss or anyone else know the star system's makeup in such detail, if every Silverlight expedition never returned? How would anything but First of the Sun and First of the First ever be known about at this time? How do they know about other worlds inhabited by people with no perpendicularity? There must be interplanetary travel already (at the time of her writing) or this could not be known. What does that imply? Is one of the other inhabited worlds or both able to travel in space, and if so, how did Khriss or other Worldhoppers run into them? There is another story here... Obviously, the other planets (and the asteroid belt for that matter) have presences in the Cognitive Realm, it's just that none of them have perpendicularities. EDIT: It's just the expeditions to First of the Sun's Physical Realm that haven't returned (and no wonder, given where the perpendicularity is). Doubtless the mapping expeditions were started as soon as the Drominad system was discovered. Edited November 7, 2016 by Landis963 1
1stBondsmith he/him Posted November 7, 2016 Posted November 7, 2016 (edited) Only places with sentient life have existence in the Cognitive Realm. That would imply that all these worlds have sentient life, (or there would be no space for them in the Cognitive Realm). Yet only three of them have Human life, and one other could. That leaves a lot of information gathered by some other means. Edited November 7, 2016 by 1stBondsmith
Pagerunner he/him Posted November 7, 2016 Posted November 7, 2016 4 minutes ago, 1stBondsmith said: Has anyone pondered on the question:"How does Kriss or anyone else know the star system's makeup in such detail, if every Silverlight expedition never returned? How would anything but First of the Sun and First of the First ever be known about at this time? How do they know about other worlds inhabited by people with no perpendicularity? There must be interplanetary travel already (at the time of her writing) or this could not be known. What does that imply? Is one of the other inhabited worlds or both able to travel in space, and if so, how did Khriss or other Worldhoppers run into them? There is another story here... You can observe the Physical Realm from Shadesmar, even if you can't travel there or influence it. We see Shallan do that to a small extent in Words of Radiance. Secret History Spoilers: Khriss and Nazh, and later Kelsier, spend a lot of time observing Scadrial from the Cognitive Realm So, they can watch, they can learn, they can observe, but they can't cross over and directly ask any questions without a Shardpool. No trade, no worldhopping, just the equivalent of a really precise telescope.
1stBondsmith he/him Posted November 7, 2016 Posted November 7, 2016 21 minutes ago, Landis963 said: Obviously, the other planets (and the asteroid belt for that matter) have presences in the Cognitive Realm, it's just that none of them have perpendicularities. EDIT: It's just the expeditions to First of the Sun's Physical Realm that haven't returned (and no wonder, given where the perpendicularity is). Doubtless the mapping expeditions were started as soon as the Drominad system was discovered. How do you have expeditions to worlds without perpendicularities, and not inhabited (thus invisible in the Cognitive Realm)?
Tsidqiyah he/him Posted November 7, 2016 Posted November 7, 2016 9 minutes ago, 1stBondsmith said: How do you have expeditions to worlds without perpendicularities, and not inhabited (thus invisible in the Cognitive Realm)? I thought only empty space had no in the cognitive realm, doesn't every piece of physical matter have at least some presence cognitively even if it is just a single point; at least all mater able to view itself as something?
Lightning he/him Posted November 7, 2016 Posted November 7, 2016 40 minutes ago, 1stBondsmith said: Has anyone pondered on the question:"How does Kriss or anyone else know the star system's makeup in such detail, if every Silverlight expedition never returned? How would anything but First of the Sun and First of the First ever be known about at this time? How do they know about other worlds inhabited by people with no perpendicularity? There must be interplanetary travel already (at the time of her writing) or this could not be known. What does that imply? Is one of the other inhabited worlds or both able to travel in space, and if so, how did Khriss or other Worldhoppers run into them? There is another story here... I agree with Landis. I thought it was implied that those who went to the physical realm were killed (probably by the animals which live near the perpendicularity--which we can guess is the pool at the top of the mountain, since that's where the animals get their powers).
Pagerunner he/him Posted November 7, 2016 Posted November 7, 2016 20 minutes ago, 1stBondsmith said: How do you have expeditions to worlds without perpendicularities, and not inhabited (thus invisible in the Cognitive Realm)? Ooh, now I see what you're asking. That's actually a great question. Based on way we've seen individuals observe the Physical Realm from Shadesmar, it shouldn't be possible to ascertain astronomical information (like the star's habitable zone). How did Khriss acquire that knowledge? Let me speculate. Maybe other astronomical bodies do exist in Shadesmar, but as objects, not as subastrals. (For example, there might be three spheres in Roshar's subastral that match the three moons). To get complicated information out of them, Khriss might have a technique or device that can let her interface better than what we've seen so far. It's also possible that there's non-sentient life on these planets. Human life in the cosmere at large isn't natural; three planets in the same system with human civilization? And dozens of other human-inhabited planets? Maybe whatever is seeding humans on these planets also placed non-human, non-sentient life, tailored to the specific planets' circumstances? That could produce subastrals, even though there wouldn't be any intelligence?
Yata he/him Posted November 8, 2016 Posted November 8, 2016 They may discover of the planet without live in a System with mundane way....Placing themself in a reachable system "near" the one they want to explore and use whatever the mankind used for centuries...the Astronomy. They may also obtain information from the Cognitive of the inhabited ones for example: You go on First of the sun's cognitive (and probably the other avaliable planets) and began to research in the city/library of that planet some star charts or astronomical references....You taking all these data and merging togheter their informations, your direct Cognitive Informations and your knowledge of Realmatic...You may extrapolate a lot. 1
1stBondsmith he/him Posted November 8, 2016 Posted November 8, 2016 @Pagerunner, and @Yata, those are some nice ideas, but if you cannot get into the system- because there is only one perpendicularity, and no one returns -and you cannot access the other worlds directly because of the way you must observe in Shadesmar, (like the water of the oceans, there is just no one thinking about them), then you have only the sketchiest of information. I can't see a way to tell distances, moon counts, habitation, planet type, or anything else about the other planets UNLESS there is sentient life. Because if things are not being thought about expressly, they do not exist in Shadesmar (by definition). And then, you would have to be able to communicate with beings that know these astronomical facts and have numbers, and knowledge. You can't just ask anyone from any system about inhabitants they haven't communicated with. There has to be more here.
Yata he/him Posted November 8, 2016 Posted November 8, 2016 (edited) @1stBondsmith yes but from Shadesmar you may obtain (with enough time and will) almost all the Knowledge of all the planets with a Cognitive Reflection..:This meant you may use centuries of research and knowledge of 3-4 (I don't remember the number) of Planet for your own agenda....the work of a single Scholar on First of The Sun (that we call "Galilei of the dawn") , may give you almost the complete planetary chart of the Drominad System. Just think to what the mankind discovered about the Earth's Solar System. Edited November 28, 2016 by Yata
Pagerunner he/him Posted November 28, 2016 Posted November 28, 2016 On 11/8/2016 at 10:22 AM, 1stBondsmith said: @Pagerunner, and @Yata, those are some nice ideas, but if you cannot get into the system- because there is only one perpendicularity, and no one returns -and you cannot access the other worlds directly because of the way you must observe in Shadesmar, (like the water of the oceans, there is just no one thinking about them), then you have only the sketchiest of information. I can't see a way to tell distances, moon counts, habitation, planet type, or anything else about the other planets UNLESS there is sentient life. Because if things are not being thought about expressly, they do not exist in Shadesmar (by definition). And then, you would have to be able to communicate with beings that know these astronomical facts and have numbers, and knowledge. You can't just ask anyone from any system about inhabitants they haven't communicated with. There has to be more here. Time to dig up an old conversation! Brandon's assistant Peter just tweeted some comments [1, 2] that are relevant to this topic: Quote Q: i think a lot about the fact that @BrandSanderson decided that roshar needed 10 evenly spaced gas giants in its system. Peter: The spacing is not to scale...and the uninhabited planets are very hard to detect from Shadesmar. Peter: Also few of these would be visible from Roshar. So... This almost seems to imply that there are more than 10 gas giants in the Rosharan system, and that planets have a presence of some form in Shadesmar even if there are no inhabitants and they are not observed by the Rosharans.
PallonianFire he/him Posted November 29, 2016 Author Posted November 29, 2016 On 11/8/2016 at 3:22 PM, 1stBondsmith said: (like the water of the oceans, there is just no one thinking about them), then you have only the sketchiest of information. As an aside and slightly off topic, I should note that, of all the planets we've seen, I feel like First of the Sun would have the most Cognitive Realm presence for its oceans. It's got lots of things that hunt based on Cognitive presence, after all. And we don't know how intelligent those huge things in the water really are, though they have to be pretty Cognitively active. 1
WeiryWriter he/him Posted December 2, 2016 Posted December 2, 2016 On 11/28/2016 at 10:49 AM, Pagerunner said: Time to dig up an old conversation! Brandon's assistant Peter just tweeted some comments [1, 2] that are relevant to this topic: This almost seems to imply that there are more than 10 gas giants in the Rosharan system, and that planets have a presence of some form in Shadesmar even if there are no inhabitants and they are not observed by the Rosharans. I really don't think it implies there are more than 10 gas giants in the system? Just that Rosharans can't see all 10. 1
1stBondsmith he/him Posted December 2, 2016 Posted December 2, 2016 This appears to me to verify my opinion that Shadesmar cannot see the planets without sentient life. Additionally, that Rosharians could not see all the planets from there. That leaves only two other source. Someone goes there physically, through space; or a totally new way of having an object think about its own identity is enough to place it in Shadesmar. From the in-book quotes, items only have an identity (or a strong one) when enough people think of it as an entity for a long period of time. I agree with Wirey Writer @Ookla the Indefinite that the statement is that you can't see all of them from Roshar. It is VERY hard to see uninhabited planets in the CR (just like I stated above). Also, the "So..." at the end of Peter's note leads you to the only other alternative...Someone "saw" them physically, the way we do or similar.
DSC01 he/him Posted December 3, 2016 Posted December 3, 2016 The Shards know about the other planets in their solar systems. Their awareness alone should be enough to create a Cognitive presence, no?
XJTA Posted December 4, 2016 Posted December 4, 2016 Since they can look at physical objects from Shadesmar I figured they determined the details of that system by observing the work of astronomers on First.
Spoolofwhool Posted December 4, 2016 Posted December 4, 2016 On 12/2/2016 at 10:34 PM, DSC01 said: The Shards know about the other planets in their solar systems. Their awareness alone should be enough to create a Cognitive presence, no? I don't think so. Cognitive presence requires actual cognitive entities in the location. Observing a place isn't the same, the cognitive aspect of the shard is still localized elsewhere.
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