Allomancy, Power Levels, and You

[Moogle]

Questions:

• Why is it an all-or-one deal with Allomancy? You can either burn one metal, or else all of them.
• Why does it seem like this is related to your Allomantic strength? The original Mistborn were all, well, Mistborn, and they were all incredibly strong. (You can make Mistings with lerasium, how does that work?) Yet, in Alloy of Law, all Allomancers are fairly weak and there are no Mistborn. I see a connection.
  • There's a plan to breed a Mistborn. How is this possible, when all the bloodlines are diluted? You can't get a 'purer' bloodline from mixing diluted ones, much like you can't mix two brown paints and get red. What are the logistics of this? Were those of strong Terris blood passed over and only those with pure Allomantic bloodlines taken by Miles?
• How is Allomantic strength passed on? Two lerasium Mistborn have a kid. Is it less powerful, the same amount of powerful, is there a chance it will be more powerful because the mists add a little bit of Investiture when Snapping people?
• Did Sazed's altering of Snapping result in lower-power Mistings? It is not too far-fetched to assume he made Snapping less 'brutal', and we know a 'wounded' soul can be filled with Investiture, so it follows that a less brutal Snapping means you get less added Investiture.
• What are the mechanics involved in burning a metal? The metal acts like a filter for Investiture that comes from elsewhere, but why can Mistings only burn one metal and Mistborn burn others? Can we, from making a theory about how this process works, predict whether or not metals mined on planets other than Scadrial will be burnable?

 

I was going to make a post actually trying to answer some of these questions, but then I made the above outline and I realized such a post would be the length of The Emperor's Soul and gave up on it. If anyone feels like taking some of the above questions and theorizing madly about them (or linking me to previous mad speculation) I'd appreciate it.

[Swimmingly]

Questions:

• Why is it an all-or-one deal with Allomancy? You can either burn one metal, or else all of them.
• Why does it seem like this is related to your Allomantic strength? The original Mistborn were all, well, Mistborn, and they were all incredibly strong. (You can make Mistings with lerasium, how does that work?) Yet, in Alloy of Law, all Allomancers are fairly weak and there are no Mistborn. I see a connection.
  • There's a plan to breed a Mistborn. How is this possible, when all the bloodlines are diluted? You can't get a 'purer' bloodline from mixing diluted ones, much like you can't mix two brown paints and get red. What are the logistics of this? Were those of strong Terris blood passed over and only those with pure Allomantic bloodlines taken by Miles?
• How is Allomantic strength passed on? Two lerasium Mistborn have a kid. Is it less powerful, the same amount of powerful, is there a chance it will be more powerful because the mists add a little bit of Investiture when Snapping people?
• Did Sazed's altering of Snapping result in lower-power Mistings? It is not too far-fetched to assume he made Snapping less 'brutal', and we know a 'wounded' soul can be filled with Investiture, so it follows that a less brutal Snapping means you get less added Investiture.
• What are the mechanics involved in burning a metal? The metal acts like a filter for Investiture that comes from elsewhere, but why can Mistings only burn one metal and Mistborn burn others? Can we, from making a theory about how this process works, predict whether or not metals mined on planets other than Scadrial will be burnable?

I was going to make a post actually trying to answer some of these questions, but then I made the above outline and I realized such a post would be the length of The Emperor's Soul and gave up on it. If anyone feels like taking some of the above questions and theorizing madly about them (or linking me to previous mad speculation) I'd appreciate it.

I'm pretty sure the "all or nothing" approach to metal burning is pretty arbitrary. It's a limit to constrain the system, as per Sanderson's somethingth law of magic.

[Moogle]

I'm pretty sure the "all or nothing" approach to metal burning is pretty arbitrary. It's a limit to constrain the system, as per Sanderson's somethingth law of magic.

 

Ah, so you come from the school of thought of Mistings-as-handwaving? I don't blame you, but I'm thinking there has to be some vague metaphysical rule that explains things.

 

Misting types don't travel down bloodlines, after all. Zane's father was a tineye, but he was a Mistborn. Breeze's kids and descendents are not all Soothers/Rioters. It seems like there's some sort of aspect of the spirit-web that determines what you are. Or perhaps to burn a metal, you have to put a little bit of your innate Investiture into the metal in your stomach, which starts the process. Mistings would have a 'mutated' spirit-web that alters their innate Investiture so it only burns one metal type. But this is at odds with Hemalurgy, which can only steal one power. Why can't Hemalurgy steal all the powers of a Mistborn? It's odd to me that a Mistborn would have 16+ different mutations on his spirit-web when Mistings only get one. If it's a sort of key + lock with spirit-web bits that allows you to put each key from your spirit-web into each lock of a metal, then there should be Mistings that can burn more than one metal type.

 

It's difficult to find in-text support for these sorts of theories, which is sad.

Edited January 26, 2014 by Moogle

[Oudeis]

• There's a plan to breed a Mistborn. How is this possible, when all the bloodlines are diluted? You can't get a 'purer' bloodline from mixing diluted ones, much like you can't mix two brown paints and get red. What are the logistics of this?

I'm told I'm too aggressive, so please pretend I'm saying something here that's nice and will soften the blow of the fact that I'm about to dispute your premise.

Genetics are nothing like mixing paint, because you only get half the DNA from each parent. In your analogy, you aren't mixing two browns to get red. You've got an orange and a purple, you somehow separate "orange" into "red and yellow" and "purple" into "red and blue", and then just mix the reds together, and end up with a color that is more "red" than either of the two "parents." Technically this is also nothing like how actual genetics work, but it's close enough in the specific metric that affects your question.

Not to mention, "allomantic power" is a result not of genetics but of spiritual genetics, and Mr. Sanderson has said those are far more complicated. Genetics might be a starting basis, but I suspect we'll learn that there's more going on.

• Can we, from making a theory about how this process works, predict whether or not metals mined on planets other than Scadrial will be burnable?

I have a strong opinion on this, personally. We know that Shards have to Invest in the planet itself to have a strong impact. There's a WoB out there somewhere I will try to find that talks about how Preservation and Ruin couldn't see metal, and how on different planets this "blindness" works differently. I think this supports my theory that Preservation and Ruin Invested in the sixteen metals of this planet, I think that atomically they're the same as iron on any other world but that their spiritual aspects are different, and this difference is what lets them be used in the Metallic Arts.

I would suspect that iron mined on Nalthis, or from a meteor that hits Scadrial, would not be allomantically active.

[WeiryWriter]

As for why Alloy-era allomancers are so weak.  If I remember correctly part of it has to do with Spook being the only mistborn to survive, and he was a reduced-strength mistborn, like most of the late Final Empire mistborn. 

 

Whether or not a person is a misting or a mistborn is a gene in their sDNA but their strength has to do with the amount of preservation in their innate investiture.  If two lerasium mistborn had children I would expect for their to be no reduction of strength.  In keep in mind though that this isn't what happened in the Final Empire.  There were only 9 original mistborn, they would have had to procreate with people with lower amounts of preservation, leading to the reduction in strength.

 

Personally, I don't see why non-scadrian metals wouldn't work for the metallic arts.  It is the shape of the metals that provide a link to preservation's power, by way of a person's innate investiture.  (that probably makes no sense, but it did in my head)  Basically, the metals are not providing the power, they just flavor it.

[Moogle]

I'm told I'm too aggressive, so please pretend I'm saying something here that's nice and will soften the blow of the fact that I'm about to dispute your premise.

 

Your post wasn't aggressive in the slightest here.

 

Genetics are nothing like mixing paint, because you only get half the DNA from each parent. In your analogy, you aren't mixing two browns to get red. You've got an orange and a purple, you somehow separate "orange" into "red and yellow" and "purple" into "red and blue", and then just mix the reds together, and end up with a color that is more "red" than either of the two "parents." Technically this is also nothing like how actual genetics work, but it's close enough in the specific metric that affects your question.

 

This is at odds with the fact that Allomantic power weakens over generations and the theory that more power = more chance of a Mistborn. Would you predict it's possible for two Allomancers to have a kid that's stronger than their parents? Does this even matter in regards to a Mistborn? Are the women who were abducted by the Vanishers just being bred at random? What's the process involved there?

 

I have a strong opinion on this, personally. We know that Shards have to Invest in the planet itself to have a strong impact. There's a WoB out there somewhere I will try to find that talks about how Preservation and Ruin couldn't see metal, and how on different planets this "blindness" works differently. I think this supports my theory that Preservation and Ruin Invested in the sixteen metals of this planet, I think that atomically they're the same as iron on any other world but that their spiritual aspects are different, and this difference is what lets them be used in the Metallic Arts.

 

So, when burning metals, you'd say that it is a requirement for Ruin and Preservation's Investiture to be in the metal itself to act as a filter or what-have-you? There's this WoB:

ANDREW THE GREAT

What would happen if a person were to burn a metal that was Feruchemically charged using Allomancy?

 

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

The metal used in Allomancy is like a key or a doorway to the power that Allomancy actually uses. The metal acts as a filter, much as the Aons in Elantris do, to determine what the power actually does. However, if the metal is Feruchemically charged, then it will basically become a super-burst of Feruchemical power with no Allomantic effect. The Feruchemical charge acts as a filter as well as the metal, and changes what the power does

 

Which is very unfortunately paraphrased. You seem to be suggesting that it is not the atomic structure alone of a metal on Scadrial that results in it acting like a key or doorway, it's the Investiture from Ruin and Preservation in combination with the atomic structure that does. This... I'm not sure what this means for a theory of metal burning. Does it mean that the 'filtering' effect of Compounding is not really special, and that the Investiture of materials also acts like a filter, which is just overridden by a Feruchemical charge?

 

If so, then I tentatively disagree with your argument that other metals would not be burnable. I'd predict that metals from other planets would be burnable, but do different things because the Investiture from other Shards would act as a different filter. But you do make a good point that other planets do not have metals blind their Shards. This is a very uncertain and confused theory from me, so don't take it as strong opposition. If you could expand on your theories and make predictions on the mechanics of actually burning metals, I'd love that.

 

Perhaps metals aren't special, it's the Investiture in them that is? I'm curious if any Mistborn have tried burning a swallowed Stormlight-infused gemstone or Awakened... anything. I almost suspect that it would work.

 

On that note, any theories about how you 'jury-rig' other systems so you can use their Investiture to power Allomancy would be welcome.

Edited January 26, 2014 by Moogle

[Oudeis]

Whether or not a person is a misting or a mistborn is a gene in their sDNA but their strength has to do with the amount of preservation in their innate investiture.

 

Personally, I don't see why non-scadrian metals wouldn't work for the metallic arts.  It is the shape of the metals that provide a link to preservation's power, by way of a person's innate investiture.

 

Do you have WoB for either of these things? I don't think it's the "atomic shape" of metal that is the key to allomancy; I think it is a signature in the spiritual aspect.

 

This is at odds with the fact that Allomantic power weakens over generations and the theory that more power = more chance of a Mistborn. Would you predict it's possible for two Allomancers to have a kid that's stronger than their parents?

I was just giving you the example of one scenario. Let's say that "red" means allomantic power and "yellow" means no powers. Most people are shades of orange. The reason mixing paint is a poor analogy is because when you take out half of a can of orange paint, it will be as orange as the original paint. In genetics, it will have an almost random proportion of red or yellow. Two orange parents might donate nothing but yellow to their children, and have kids with no powers. They might donate nothing but red and have children stronger than they are. This is all just a terrible, terrible way to describe genetics.

 

 

So, when burning metals, you'd say that it is a requirement for Ruin and Preservation's Investiture to be in the metal itself to act as a filter or what-have-you? There's this WoB:

 

Which is very unfortunately paraphrased. You seem to be suggesting that it is not the atomic structure alone of a metal on Scadrial that results in it acting like a key or doorway, it's the Investiture from Ruin and Preservation in combination with the atomic structure that does. This... I'm not sure what this means for a theory of metal burning. Does it mean that the 'filtering' effect of Compounding is not really special, and that the Investiture of materials also acts like a filter, which is just overridden by a Feruchemical charge?

 

If so, then I tentatively disagree with your argument that other metals would not be burnable. I'd predict that metals from other planets would be burnable, but do different things because the Investiture from other Shards would act as a different filter. But you do make a good point that other planets do not have metals blind their Shards. This is a very uncertain and confused theory from me, so don't take it as strong opposition. If you could expand on your theories and make predictions on the mechanics of actually burning metals, I'd love that.

 

Perhaps metals aren't special, it's the Investiture in them that is? I'm curious if any Mistborn have tried burning a swallowed Stormlight-infused gemstone or Awakened... anything. I almost suspect that it would work.

 

Lot to work with here... where to start...

Um, first, something realmatic. Not to get all Bill Clinton here, but I think I define "metal" differently than you do, which might be part of the problem. It seems like when you hear "metal," you assume it means, this physical thing I can touch, which also happens to be associated with a spiritual aspect and a cognitive aspect. (My apologies if I'm putting words in your mouth. I know we're not quite on the same page and I'm trying to figure out where, so this is a guess. I always hesitate to ascribe intent to someone when it wasn't expressed, so please don't think I assume I know what's going on in your head.)

When I hear, or say, "metal", all three aspects are the same to me. So when I hear, "the metal acts as a key," I don't think of it as, "the atomic structure of the metal," I think of it as, some part of one of the three aspects that, collectively, form this metal. Since a lot of the raw power of Investiture seems to come from the spiritual, I'm guessing it's there.

I don't think that filling a metalmind changes it atomically, I think it adds to the spiritual aspect. I think this charge is what overwhelms the allomantic "signature" in compounding.

So... yes. I think that when Ruin and Presevation Invested in the planet, that it wasn't wholly equal. I think that rocks and trees got investiture, equal parts, but that the metals got something more. Still equal, hence why they work in the two arts and the compromise that is feruchemy, just more specific than the general power pushed to all things on the planet. I think this is why Scadrian metal blinds Shards. I think metal from Nalthis would have generic Endowment investiture the way rocks from Scadrial have generic Ruin and Preservation investiture, and I don't think you could burn steel from Nalthis any more than you can burn a potato on Scadrial.

 

To clarify: I don't think it's the atomic structure of the metal at all, and I don't think the WoB you quoted proves that it is. When he says "metal", I think he's talking about the entire metal, not simply the physical aspect of the metal. Is there a WoB anywhere that would tell us how he talks about these things?

 

The last line of what I quoted above is basically exactly what I've been trying to say, and it's what gave me the clue that might explain why we haven't been communicating very well.

 

On that note, any theories about how you 'jury-rig' other systems so you can use their Investiture to power Allomancy would be welcome.

I actually assume it would take direct shardic intervention. Short of that, I think our in-text cross-cosmere knowledge is as paltry as a clam's knowledge of mountaineering, and any guesses would be purest speculation.

[Swimmingly]

 

Do you have WoB for either of these things? I don't think it's the "atomic shape" of metal that is the key to allomancy; I think it is a signature in the spiritual aspect.

 

I was just giving you the example of one scenario. Let's say that "red" means allomantic power and "yellow" means no powers. Most people are shades of orange. The reason mixing paint is a poor analogy is because when you take out half of a can of orange paint, it will be as orange as the original paint. In genetics, it will have an almost random proportion of red or yellow. Two orange parents might donate nothing but yellow to their children, and have kids with no powers. They might donate nothing but red and have children stronger than they are. This is all just a terrible, terrible way to describe genetics.

 

 

 

Lot to work with here... where to start...

Um, first, something realmatic. Not to get all Bill Clinton here, but I think I define "metal" differently than you do, which might be part of the problem. It seems like when you hear "metal," you assume it means, this physical thing I can touch, which also happens to be associated with a spiritual aspect and a cognitive aspect. (My apologies if I'm putting words in your mouth. I know we're not quite on the same page and I'm trying to figure out where, so this is a guess. I always hesitate to ascribe intent to someone when it wasn't expressed, so please don't think I assume I know what's going on in your head.)

When I hear, or say, "metal", all three aspects are the same to me. So when I hear, "the metal acts as a key," I don't think of it as, "the atomic structure of the metal," I think of it as, some part of one of the three aspects that, collectively, form this metal. Since a lot of the raw power of Investiture seems to come from the spiritual, I'm guessing it's there.

I don't think that filling a metalmind changes it atomically, I think it adds to the spiritual aspect. I think this charge is what overwhelms the allomantic "signature" in compounding.

So... yes. I think that when Ruin and Presevation Invested in the planet, that it wasn't wholly equal. I think that rocks and trees got investiture, equal parts, but that the metals got something more. Still equal, hence why they work in the two arts and the compromise that is feruchemy, just more specific than the general power pushed to all things on the planet. I think this is why Scadrian metal blinds Shards. I think metal from Nalthis would have generic Endowment investiture the way rocks from Scadrial have generic Ruin and Preservation investiture, and I don't think you could burn steel from Nalthis any more than you can burn a potato on Scadrial.

 

To clarify: I don't think it's the atomic structure of the metal at all, and I don't think the WoB you quoted proves that it is. When he says "metal", I think he's talking about the entire metal, not simply the physical aspect of the metal. Is there a WoB anywhere that would tell us how he talks about these things?

 

The last line of what I quoted above is basically exactly what I've been trying to say, and it's what gave me the clue that might explain why we haven't been communicating very well.

 

I actually assume it would take direct shardic intervention. Short of that, I think our in-text cross-cosmere knowledge is as paltry as a clam's knowledge of mountaineering, and any guesses would be purest speculation.

If metal is as intertwined between the realms as you assert, then the molecular shape of the metal, the origin of the metal, or any other aspect could be the part that is analogous to the spiritual construct that allows for use in the metallic arts - you have only your own opinion that it is not the physical structure, and the quote implies that it is.

[WeiryWriter]

 Do you have WoB for either of these things? I don't think it's the "atomic shape" of metal that is the key to allomancy; I think it is a signature in the spiritual aspect.

 

I don't think I have WoB for the first but the second yah, I do:

 

 

People ask about getting the power from metals and things, but that’s not actually how it works. The power’s not coming from metal. I talked a little about this before, but you are drawing power from some source, and the metal is actually just a gateway. It’s actually the molecular structure of the metal… what’s going on there, the pattern, the resonance of that metal works in the same way as an Aon does in Elantris. It filters the power. So it is just a sign of “this is what power this energy is going to be shaped into and give you.” When you understand that, compounding [in Alloy of Law] makes much more sense.

 

(source)

[Pechvarry]

I really like moogle's observation about hemalurgy: if mistborn have one power to burn 16 metals, how come you can only spike 1? If they have 16 powers to burn 16 different metals, how come no one ever has 2? Or 9?

Edited January 27, 2014 by Pechvarry

[Moogle]

I really like moogle's observation about hrmalurgy: if mistborn have one power to burn 16 metals, how come you can only spike 1? If they have 16 powers to burn 16 different metals, how come no one ever has 2? Or 9?

 

As a possible explanation, it could be that a Mistborn has a 'well formed' part of their spirit-web that allows for burning of all the metals. It's Mistings who have a slightly mutated version that only allows burning of one metal. And it could be that Hemalurgy would damage this 'well-formed' bit of the spirit-web because of how traumatic it is so that it would be ever so slightly mutated, and it wouldn't work.

 

I'm not satisfied with this explanation, though. I'm trying to think of how it could work and I am banging my head against a wall because nothing's coming.

 

@Darnam:

I understand the genetics involved (paint was a terrible analogy), but your explanation of the 'magic genes' required for Allomancy leaves me wanting a bit more. The fact that there could be multiple 'genes' combining which are required to form a Mistborn makes a bit of sense, but how on earth would Wax's uncle be able to figure out what genes each abducted person he took had? Does he just plan on brute-forcing things and having each woman have a child from each man just to get all the required gene combinations started? This seems awkward, and given that we know Wax's uncle's organization succeeds... there seems to be something at work here that's important.

 

Your explanation of genes also does not really mesh with Hemalurgy, since if being a Mistborn just requires a certain set of sDNA 'genes', then it should be able to be stolen by spike. Instead, only one power can be stolen. Maybe the spikes are too limited to steal it all? I don't think that's the case... but we really have no evidence, do we?

 

Does power depend on the genetics? If so, you might be able to get a child more powerful than its parents, a fact which is not well-suported at all. Vin's mother was a skaa whore, she shouldn't have had any of the required genetics (those belong to purer nobleman lines), but Vin was still very powerful. I don't think sDNA gets you half and half from each parent, and I'm grasping at straws to explain anything here.

Edited January 26, 2014 by Moogle

[Swimmingly]

I really like moogle's observation about hrmalurgy: if mistborn have one power to burn 16 metals, how come you can only spike 1? If they have 16 powers to burn 16 different metals, how come no one ever has 2? Or 9?

What if a spiritweb can only support Mistings and Mistborn without hemalurgy, and hemalurgy is a linear process, so spiking out one power causes the remainder to collapse?

[Aonar]

I think that we're focusing too much on the idea that Spiritual genes work in a way that's easily comparable to real genes. 

 

I see it more like this: their's a part of your Spiritweb that says that your parents were allomancers, so you can use allomancy. There's another that says you have X amount of Innate Investiture from Preservation. The first "gene" requires that your Innate Investiture exceeds a certain "threshold" to become active. If an allomancer has so much Innate Investiture, they can Snap and become a Misting. If they pass a certain threshold of Investiture, they can Snap and become a Mistborn. They don't necessarily have to have a separate part of the Spiritweb for each allomantic power. 

 

Hemalurgy can steal this part of the Spiritweb and some Innate Investiture. This way, you have enough Investiture to use the hemalurgic ability, and if you were a misting previously, you now have two powers.

 

@The OP: I like the idea that Alloy era allomancers are weaker because of how Sazed changed Snapping, it fits nicely with my own theories about how Snapping works.

Edited January 26, 2014 by AonarFaileas

[WeiryWriter]

Does power depend on the genetics? If so, you might be able to get a child more powerful than its parents, a fact which is not well-suported at all. Vin's mother was a skaa whore, she shouldn't have had any of the required genetics (those belong to purer nobleman lines), but Vin was still very powerful. I don't think sDNA gets you half and half from each parent, and I'm grasping at straws to explain anything here.

 

Keep in mind that her father was a Tekiel, and so had a pretty pure line.  But yah, its weird.

[Voidus]

I really like moogle's observation about hrmalurgy: if mistborn have one power to burn 16 metals, how come you can only spike 1? If they have 16 powers to burn 16 different metals, how come no one ever has 2? Or 9?

Well to start each spike only steals a specific subset of powers so there might just not be a spike which can steal Mistborn abilities in their entirety, but also sDNA, Innate investiture and your spiritweb aren't all the same thing, Hemalurgy just steals a piece of spiritweb, not the entirety of that persons innate Investiture.

I think it mostly has to do with the nature of allomancy, there's not much in the way of gradation in the lower levels, you're either a misting, or just a regular person, someone with a little bit of Preservation can't burn a metal very weakly they just can't burn it at all, likewise the step between misting and mistborn isn't being able to burn more than 1 metal or burning them all a little bit, there's just a sudden jump. At the next level there'd be ascension I suppose.

And now that I think about it, Savantism seems similar, it's a sudden leap in ability.

[digitalbusker]

Overly-simplified genetic example of breeding a Mistborn from Mistings:

 

Say there's an Allomancy gene, which comes in A (allomancer) and a (non-allomancer) forms. Further say that someone who is Aa (or aA, trivially) can Snap into a Misting, and someone who is AA can snap into a Mistborn. So two Mistings (Aa) breeding will produce a non-allomancer (aa) 25% of the time, a Misting (Aa) 50% of the time, and a Mistborn (AA) 25% of the time.

 

I know the probability of inheritance of Allomantic powers is much more complicated (and lower) than that, and this model doesn't account for the general decline in strength over time. It's likely that there are dozens or hundreds of sGenes involved (probably some power of 2 or 16), and millions of combinations that produce various kinds and strengths of Allomancers. Perhaps what burning pure Lerasium does is turn on all of your Allomantic sGenes, so you are the strongest it's possible for you to be.

 

The point of the genetics example is this: it is totally possible to selectively breed a population to express a given genetic trait more strongly than in any member of the starting population. There are certainly downsides, because you might also be concentrating undesirable traits. Perhaps the Set's eventual clan of Mistborn will all be hemophiliacs, or suffer heart defects, or be prone to schizophrenia.  But if the strength of a Lerasium-Mistborn is totally reflected in the changes to that person's sGenes, and not just a lingering effect of the god-metal, and if the population of people who survived the Final Ascension carried forward all the genes involved, it's theoretically possible for the Set to selectively breed not just a Vin or Kelsier-level Mistborn, but an Elend-level Mistborn. Not likely, but theoretically possible.