Madninja324 Posted November 2, 2016 Posted November 2, 2016 Adolin is about one step away from becoming a Radiant like his father and brother, his personality is almost (though not quite) perfect for a Radiant and pretty much the only thing stopping some Spren from snapping him up is the fact that Surges can only take root in a broken soul, and Adolin isn't broken by a long shot. Now to be clear I don't actually like the idea of Adolin becoming a Radiant (though I'm not totally opposed to the thought, like I said, he'd make a good Dustbringer or possibly Stoneward) there are enough Kholins in the Radiants as is and I like the idea of a non Radiant hero playing a major part in the war to demonstrate that it isn't just the Knights Radiant fighting the Voidbringers while the rest of humanity stands back and watches. so the questions are: Should Adolin become a Radiant? How would he experience the necessary breaking to make him one? What would his Order be if he did? and if he doesn't how will he still stay plot relevant while everyone from his father to his fiancee to his little brother are suddenly worlds apart from him in terms of power? Ready? Set. Go! 1
Eki Posted November 2, 2016 Posted November 2, 2016 I think Brandon recently RAFO'd a question about whether or not Adolin was "broken enough" to become a Radiant. So we don't really know that yet. He HAS lost his mother, and we don't know that much of his past other than that. I kind of would prefer if Adolin didn't become a knight as well, but I think Dustbringer would be my first choice if he did. Mostly because it's one of the orders we know least about. Or Edgedancer, if it involves reviving his sword. Adolin having Lift as a teacher would be hilarious. Maybe Adolin could become Shallan's squire! That would give him some (unknown) powers, possibly. He'd be kind of like a WoT warder, I guess. 2
Odin1981 Posted November 2, 2016 Posted November 2, 2016 It wouldn't surprise me in the least if he is odium's champion personally. Obviously I can't prove it. But it to me at least screams out a perfect twist object because no one would expect him. Granted he has a long ways to go but the end of WOR is a perfect start to his downfall. 1
Madninja324 Posted November 2, 2016 Author Posted November 2, 2016 I can't see that to be honest, things would have to get ridiculously bad for Adolin in particular, and fast for a face/heel turn that sharp
asterion137 he/him Posted November 2, 2016 Posted November 2, 2016 I think Adolin screwing up right before Dalinar's POV book is a little ominous tbh 1
Madninja324 Posted November 2, 2016 Author Posted November 2, 2016 it is, I just don't see him falling so far that he actively betrays those he cares about
Odin1981 Posted November 2, 2016 Posted November 2, 2016 (edited) Ok let me paint this picture for you and try it on for size if you will. He is the "heir apparent" to take his fathers place in the kingdom. He at some point in the future feels he is now ready to ascend to the position of responsibility. His father doesn't relent his position at a time of Adolins liking. He starts to breed discontent. Among the plateholders and bladesman he is in the top tier of ability who is often relied upon when duty calls to preform when needed that is above and beyond (kinda like a champion eh?). He looks around and all his family becoming a radiant and he isn't (breeds contempt/jealousy). Due to events like the chasm and more than likely more TBD he sees his betrothed form a close bond of friendship with Kaladrin (more jealousy). A event happens that he catches at the end of between the before mentioned two and catches a "friendly" hug or embrace that sparks even more along with the above mentioned points. He feels that he is betrayed by those closest to him. He already has committed a killing with anger and malice (ie hate) taking out Sabwhatever opening a "doorway" if you will to Odium. He is a close and trusted member of his foes (odiums) so he is tactically a good person to invest in to turn to gain access to the inner workings of the new Knights Radiant. But since he is not in it, he flies below the radar. Also it is highly likely that events will be taken to break down the trust of the orders (traitor within the ranks) in regards to the public by Odium's assets to divert there attention (misdirection look here fools not there). The "writings on the wall" if you will teehee :). Cool points will be awarded to those that catch that reference if you will. Edited November 2, 2016 by Odin1981 changed crime to killing due to unfamiliarity of the alethi legal system 1
Madninja324 Posted November 2, 2016 Author Posted November 2, 2016 except that that scenario assumes a level of selfishness he has yet to display
thegatorgirl00 she/her Posted November 2, 2016 Posted November 2, 2016 This is one of those topics that has been discussed many times before. You can look here, here, or here to find some ideas. Or you can wait for @maxal to show up. 1
Odin1981 Posted November 2, 2016 Posted November 2, 2016 1 hour ago, Madninja324 said: except that that scenario assumes a level of selfishness he has yet to display At what point in either of the two paragraphs that I wrote did I judge his character? I explained a hypothetical scenario that could cause him to break his bonds of family and friend(s) and lead him on a path leading him to take up the mantle of Odium's champion.
Krandacth Posted November 2, 2016 Posted November 2, 2016 4 hours ago, Odin1981 said: Ok let me paint this picture for you and try it on for size if you will. He is the "heir apparent" to take his fathers place in the kingdom. He at some point in the future feels he is now ready to ascend to the position of responsibility. His father doesn't relent his position at a time of Adolins liking. He starts to breed discontent. Among the plateholders and bladesman he is in the top tier of ability who is often relied upon when duty calls to preform when needed that is above and beyond (kinda like a champion eh?). He looks around and all his family becoming a radiant and he isn't (breeds contempt/jealousy). Due to events like the chasm and more than likely more TBD he sees his betrothed form a close bond of friendship with Kaladrin (more jealousy). A event happens that he catches at the end of between the before mentioned two and catches a "friendly" hug or embrace that sparks even more along with the above mentioned points. He feels that he is betrayed by those closest to him. He already has committed a crime with anger and malice (ie hate) taking out Sabwhatever opening a "doorway" if you will to Odium. He is a close and trusted member of his foes (odiums) so he is tactically a good person to invest in to turn to gain access to the inner workings of the new Knights Radiant. But since he is not on it he flies below the radar. Also it is highly likely that events will be taken to break down the trust of the orders (traitor within the ranks) in regards to the public by Odium's assets to divert there attention (misdirection look here fools not there). The "writings on the wall" if you will teehee :). Cool points will be awarded to those that catch that reference if you will. I have made a similar argument regarding Moash recently (link below). However, based on the same logic, Adolin is not set to be bound to Odium or his splinters: Though he might have feelings of hate, they come not from an ideology of such but from another's flagrant disregard for Adolin's own ideals (which, to me, seem quite Edgedancer, but that is another point). Therefore he can't become bound to Odium because he doesn't have a hate-shaped hole in his soul, rather (as far as I can tell) a caring-shaped one. On another note, I would also like to point out Brandon's use of the word "snapped" preceding Adolin's tussle with Sadeas. I found that intriguing. 1
Odin1981 Posted November 2, 2016 Posted November 2, 2016 Oh thats cool Krandacth. My belief isn't a live or die type issue. It's just that from a particular point of view I could see the direction as I described being a scenario or something along the lines of it.
tobar14 he/him Posted November 2, 2016 Posted November 2, 2016 (edited) Shallan and Kal hook up, Adolin gets mad, boom he is broken. I could see him becoming a skybreaker. He is always talking about what is right and wrong, mostly in regards to what sadeas did. He has trouble deciding on his own what is right and wrong (windrunners), so he leaves it to law to guide his decisions (sort of). edit: I just found a WoB that said that adolin would likely not be a skybreaker. Edited November 2, 2016 by tobar14
Krandacth Posted November 2, 2016 Posted November 2, 2016 @Odin1981 I know yours wasn't live or die, as you say :-) I was just linking two similar lines of thought about two different characters, and contrasting their circumstances/mindsets. My theory is very tenuous and mostly subjective, so it could still go either way!
Odin1981 Posted November 2, 2016 Posted November 2, 2016 No worries. Hey most speculation and theory at this point is all subjective we are 2 books into a 10 part volume. A # of individuals in the books up to this point can make a claim to that title. There are a multitude of ways Mr. Sanderson can take this.
Guest Posted November 3, 2016 Posted November 3, 2016 20 hours ago, Madninja324 said: Adolin is about one step away from becoming a Radiant like his father and brother, his personality is almost (though not quite) perfect for a Radiant and pretty much the only thing stopping some Spren from snapping him up is the fact that Surges can only take root in a broken soul, and Adolin isn't broken by a long shot. Now to be clear I don't actually like the idea of Adolin becoming a Radiant (though I'm not totally opposed to the thought, like I said, he'd make a good Dustbringer or possibly Stoneward) there are enough Kholins in the Radiants as is and I like the idea of a non Radiant hero playing a major part in the war to demonstrate that it isn't just the Knights Radiant fighting the Voidbringers while the rest of humanity stands back and watches. so the questions are: Should Adolin become a Radiant? How would he experience the necessary breaking to make him one? What would his Order be if he did? and if he doesn't how will he still stay plot relevant while everyone from his father to his fiancee to his little brother are suddenly worlds apart from him in terms of power? Ready? Set. Go! I love Adolin. Everyone who spends about 5 minutes on this forum has gathered that. I once joked I must have written the equivalent of one Stormlight Archive book worth of theories and character analysis on Adolin (and it might be an under-statement). In the past three years, I have looked into many tangents and many possibilities: some ended up in a dead end, some are still lively, some currently appears more likely based on various WoB. Should Adolin become a Radiant? Should this be a question? Why shouldn't he be a Radiant? Because everyone else in his family already is? Because of the unwritten rule of fantasy dictating you absolutely need a "normal" character within the story? What is Adolin? Is he a good fleshed out character we all wish to see grow or is he representation? I personally feel it is the former and not the later which is why I dislike the question. Adolin should become a Radiant if it is the more relevant and interesting growth for his character. How would he experienced a breaking? What makes us think he hasn't already broken? I personally believe Adolin has been slowly breaking down ever since the Tower. He has taken it hard, he has been mourning his dead men and he has had the impulse of breaking the mask of false ignorance the other Highprinces shared. He hates the hypocrisy. He hates the games. He hates lying and it is slowly getting to him, this and the pressure to perform, the pressure to be the perfect son, the pressure to be the one to stand strong against all foes, never being able to share his doubts and his fears. Not allowed to have them. My thoughts have thus been Adolin's entire external image of a strong, confident and brave man is just a front he is putting on, for the shake of others. It isn't what he is, but what he thinks he needs to be. Unfortunately, when Sadeas last gloated to him, he loses it. He snaps. Something broke in him and through rage he was allowed to finally let the real Adolin, the one whom has been repressed for so long, to roam free and to remove this stressful agent which was Sadeas. Adolin doesn't care about the codes: he cares about what is morally right and ignoring the fact Sadeas killed so many and plans on killing more merely to avoid an open-conflict is morally wrong. I know Brandon RAFOed all questions on Adolin, but I do think he has started to break. Is it enough? I can't say, but I am convinced he will soon be broken down enough. His Order? Edgedancers. Adolin cares, Adolin loves: these are his driving energies, not bravery. 21 hours ago, Odin1981 said: It wouldn't surprise me in the least if he is odium's champion personally. Obviously I can't prove it. But it to me at least screams out a perfect twist object because no one would expect him. Granted he has a long ways to go but the end of WOR is a perfect start to his downfall. On the contrary, everyone expects him to fall because tropes demands for his character to fall. The nice boy from a good family is never the hero, he never succeeds, he is always misguided and evil. The unexpected twist would be to keep Adolin good, even if he has to go through inner turmoil to find his place. 18 hours ago, Odin1981 said: Ok let me paint this picture for you and try it on for size if you will. He is the "heir apparent" to take his fathers place in the kingdom. He at some point in the future feels he is now ready to ascend to the position of responsibility. His father doesn't relent his position at a time of Adolins liking. He starts to breed discontent. Among the plateholders and bladesman he is in the top tier of ability who is often relied upon when duty calls to preform when needed that is above and beyond (kinda like a champion eh?). He looks around and all his family becoming a radiant and he isn't (breeds contempt/jealousy). Due to events like the chasm and more than likely more TBD he sees his betrothed form a close bond of friendship with Kaladrin (more jealousy). A event happens that he catches at the end of between the before mentioned two and catches a "friendly" hug or embrace that sparks even more along with the above mentioned points. He feels that he is betrayed by those closest to him. He already has committed a killing with anger and malice (ie hate) taking out Sabwhatever opening a "doorway" if you will to Odium. He is a close and trusted member of his foes (odiums) so he is tactically a good person to invest in to turn to gain access to the inner workings of the new Knights Radiant. But since he is not in it, he flies below the radar. Also it is highly likely that events will be taken to break down the trust of the orders (traitor within the ranks) in regards to the public by Odium's assets to divert there attention (misdirection look here fools not there). The "writings on the wall" if you will teehee :). Cool points will be awarded to those that catch that reference if you will. None this even begins to fit Adolin. Adolin isn't after power nor does he even want his father's position. When Dalinar plans to abdicate for him, Adolin is gripped with anxiety, having stomach pains and desperately trying to find a way to have his father change his mind. He complains on how he doesn't want to be a Highprince, so the idea Dalinar lingering too long into his seat might force him to join force with Odium does not hold the road. Also, Adolin doesn't want to be a Champion. Oh he says he wants to, but once it happens, he does not waste one waking moment even thinking about it. It wasn't important for him. As for jealousy, when has Adolin ever been jealous? It just isn't within his nature to envy others: when found inferior, his reaction is to work himself to death and/or to self-depreciate himself. I feel we just aren't talking about the same character here...
Odin1981 Posted November 3, 2016 Posted November 3, 2016 (edited) Do you doubt that him killing Sadeas could cause severe changes to his mental outlook from here on going forward? Who is too say? And once again another response based on personal feeling of the character and not that there is potential for a direction like the above mentioned could happen? I never in any sentence in my post with the 2 paragraphs in any way judge adolin's character. I simply outline a train of thought that has potential to lead him down a dark road. Edited November 3, 2016 by Odin1981 added and inbetween character and not for emphasis 1
goody153 Posted November 3, 2016 Posted November 3, 2016 Quote Should Adolin become a Radiant? I thought we caught an obvious foreshadowing with all the adolin talking to the shard and stuff. Also not all Radiant orders have to be like the honorable stuff that Windrunners/BondSmiths seem to be made of. But i suspect it would be a very different process if he's going to be a radiant. Quote How would he experience the necessary breaking to make him one? Renarin didn't have to go through traumatic experience to become a Radiant so i guess he's gucchi now ? He's experienced alot of development for himself lately. Quote What would his Order be if he did? Dustbringer ? I'm leaning on the WoB where Mr. Sanderson just smiles and nods upon the suggestion of Dustbringers Quote and if he doesn't how will he still stay plot relevant while everyone from his father to his fiancee to his little brother are suddenly worlds apart from him in terms of power? Adolin can LEAD and he's a natural soldier , big difference between him and renarin, Not every commander or lead fighter has to be radiant , nor not every politician has to be a radiant. He'll stay relevant for sure.
Guest Posted November 3, 2016 Posted November 3, 2016 8 minutes ago, Odin1981 said: Do you doubt that him killing Sadeas could cause severe changes to his mental outlook from here on going forward? Who is too say? And once again another response based on personal feeling of the character and not that there is potential for a direction like the above mentioned could happen? I never in any sentence in my post with the 2 paragraphs in any way judge adolin's character. I simply outline a train of thought that has potential to lead him down a dark road. He doesn't have this train of thoughts. He doesn't want power for himself. You can't decide he wants it just because it better fits your theory.
Odin1981 Posted November 3, 2016 Posted November 3, 2016 (edited) Personal cognitive bias cannot be considered as a contention. I would have better luck banging my head against a supporting beam to a building structure seeking to find inner peace then to change a outlook that internally was formed in another individual. I merely outlined a structured and reasoned application of said scenario happening. Edited November 3, 2016 by Odin1981 1
Eki Posted November 3, 2016 Posted November 3, 2016 54 minutes ago, goody153 said: Renarin didn't have to go through traumatic experience to become a Radiant so i guess he's gucchi now ? He's experienced alot of development for himself lately. We don't know what Renarin has experienced. Like Adolin, he lost his mother. He also doesn't fit into the role his society expects him to fill. There could be a multitude of things in his life that could be considered "traumatic experiences".
Massik he/him Posted November 3, 2016 Posted November 3, 2016 (edited) I'm not sure he will go all Vader as some suspect. He is always watching out for Rennarin, saves the darkeyed brothel worker and places himself in prison alongside Kal. When he kills Sadeus, he says he isn't like his father, but I don't think it means he is saying he's bad. He just doesn't go by the book to achieve what he feels is justified. He is more of a loose cannon. If anything breaks him, it will most certainly be due to the rammifications of him taking out Sadeus, whether internal or external in nature. I'm not sure that it will be external, TBH. Remember, when Dalinar is percieved as "slipping" by the court, he fully expects an assassin. I forget the wording, but I was left with the impression that such a thing would have been socially acceptable amongst the Alethi. That so long as it is done quietly and not publicly it is acceptable, and is somewhat the Alethi way. I think that his breaking would be internal. Not because he feels guilt stemming from how Alethi in general would percieve his actions, but how Dalinar would. Dalinar goes by the book (literally The Way of Kings). But, many Alethi consider Dalinar odd for doing so. Hope this makes sense. Edited November 3, 2016 by Massik typos
Guest Posted November 3, 2016 Posted November 3, 2016 7 hours ago, Massik said: I'm not sure he will go all Vader as some suspect. He is always watching out for Rennarin, saves the darkeyed brothel worker and places himself in prison alongside Kal. When he kills Sadeus, he says he isn't like his father, but I don't think it means he is saying he's bad. He just doesn't go by the book to achieve what he feels is justified. He is more of a loose cannon. If anything breaks him, it will most certainly be due to the rammifications of him taking out Sadeus, whether internal or external in nature. I'm not sure that it will be external, TBH. Remember, when Dalinar is percieved as "slipping" by the court, he fully expects an assassin. I forget the wording, but I was left with the impression that such a thing would have been socially acceptable amongst the Alethi. That so long as it is done quietly and not publicly it is acceptable, and is somewhat the Alethi way. I think that his breaking would be internal. Not because he feels guilt stemming from how Alethi in general would percieve his actions, but how Dalinar would. Dalinar goes by the book (literally The Way of Kings). But, many Alethi consider Dalinar odd for doing so. Hope this makes sense. Clues I have on book 3 are it will indeed be internal. Adolin isn't going to start lashing at other people, but I do think he is going to close onto himself. He is the outcast, the black sheep, the undeserving one and he'll use those thoughts to further depreciate himself. It might one of the greatest overlook when it comes to Adolin, how little self-confidence he truly has and how he compensate for it by being fool-hardy, brash and mouthy. He talks big, but inside he feels little. My thoughts are, independently of his punishment (there ought to be one), Adolin is going to feel he isn't worthy of being his father's son. As long as you are of my house, you will wear my color. Adolin removes his uniform in book 3: I think he will make a stand here. He will say he isn't worthy of being a member of this great house. He is shamed. He has not been loyal. He has broken down the codes, hence he will stop wearing blue. What happens afterwards, I have no idea, but I sincerely doubt it will involve him starting to harm the very people he admire, he wants to emulate while feeling he isn't up to the task. Here lies Adolin's greatest tragedy: he wants to be his father's son so bad, he has ignored (and Dalinar has ignored it as well) he mostly is his mother's son. 8 hours ago, Odin1981 said: Personal cognitive bias cannot be considered as a contention. I would have better luck banging my head against a supporting beam to a building structure seeking to find inner peace then to change a outlook that internally was formed in another individual. I merely outlined a structured and reasoned application of said scenario happening. Adolin just isn't about those things you want him to be after: he doesn't want to be Highprince. He isn't jealous. What he has is low self-confidence, hidden within a great deal of brashness, but low self-confidence nonetheless. What he wants is to be a son his father would be proud of (the greatest man in the world), but at the same time he fears he might lose another family member (mother died remember) which makes him very protective of those he has left. His greatest problem is he isn't being himself. Himself isn't a Highprince nor a soldier nor merely Dalinar's son: himself is someone who cares about people more than he cares about laws, codes, rules and conventions. He is someone who will put others before himself and doesn't want to stand idle in front of bullying or injustice. He wants to act, to take a stand and to scream it out everyone's behavior makes no sense. He is the moral one, not the honorable one, but it doesn't make him ripe for Odium. Evil needs something to fester on and there is nothing Adolin wants which Odium might be able to grant with false promises. Characters such as Elhokar and Renarin are much more suitable for a Vader-style story arc.
Krandacth Posted November 3, 2016 Posted November 3, 2016 1 hour ago, maxal said: He is the moral one, not the honorable one, but it doesn't make him ripe for Odium. Evil needs something to fester on and there is nothing Adolin wants which Odium might be able to grant with false promises. Characters such as Elhokar and Renarin are much more suitable for a Vader-style story arc. I like that first idea: Shallan stubbornly wants there to be some absolute morality, Jasnah tries to convince her there isn't one, but gets her betrothed to someone who embodies the ideal of such an absolute morality Anyway, I'm curious how you think Renarin or Elhokar has Vader-like potential... Both seem too inherently limited as people. Vader became Vader because of an abundance of personal ability that was limited by his less able "betters" at every turn. Both Renarin and Elhokar feel their inability to a painful degree. Also, you claim Adolin feels inferior. I agree with you when he contrasts himself to his father, or his brother (and most women he knows) intellectually, but he knows he is an amazing dualist and warrior, and that he isn't stupid. This has been shaken by Szeth, and his response to that was good. But I can imagine a sense of jealousy rising as he realises that Kaladin and even Shallan (probably) will be significantly more effective in the coming fight, simply because of their powers. It wouldn't be a jealousy for the power, but for the effectiveness, the ability to act on his morals in a meaningful way. That jealousy would arise from the frustration of his usually successful approach of "just keep trying" simply not cutting it in this case, as the ability they have was not earned through effort. Why were they so blessed and not him? 1
Massik he/him Posted November 3, 2016 Posted November 3, 2016 9 hours ago, maxal said: Clues I have on book 3 are it will indeed be internal. Adolin isn't going to start lashing at other people, but I do think he is going to close onto himself. He is the outcast, the black sheep, the undeserving one and he'll use those thoughts to further depreciate himself. It might one of the greatest overlook when it comes to Adolin, how little self-confidence he truly has and how he compensate for it by being fool-hardy, brash and mouthy. He talks big, but inside he feels little. My thoughts are, independently of his punishment (there ought to be one), Adolin is going to feel he isn't worthy of being his father's son. As long as you are of my house, you will wear my color. Adolin removes his uniform in book 3: I think he will make a stand here. He will say he isn't worthy of being a member of this great house. He is shamed. He has not been loyal. He has broken down the codes, hence he will stop wearing blue. What happens afterwards, I have no idea, but I sincerely doubt it will involve him starting to harm the very people he admire, he wants to emulate while feeling he isn't up to the task. Here lies Adolin's greatest tragedy: he wants to be his father's son so bad, he has ignored (and Dalinar has ignored it as well) he mostly is his mother's son. . I agree, for the most part, save his confidence. He has confidence in standing up for others and in challenging all of Sadeus' loyalists in duels as well as on the battlefield. He does have a loud personality, but I'm not sure it's compensation. How he starts behaving towards Kal shows he has some humility.
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