Adolin joins the family business, or does he?

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12 hours ago, Krandacth said:

I like that first idea: Shallan stubbornly wants there to be some absolute morality, Jasnah tries to convince her there isn't one, but gets her betrothed to someone who embodies the ideal of such an absolute morality

Anyway, I'm curious how you think Renarin or Elhokar has Vader-like potential... Both seem too inherently limited as people. Vader became Vader because of an abundance of personal ability that was limited by his less able "betters" at every turn. Both Renarin and Elhokar feel their inability to a painful degree.

Also, you claim Adolin feels inferior. I agree with you when he contrasts himself to his father, or his brother (and most women he knows) intellectually, but he knows he is an amazing dualist and warrior, and that he isn't stupid. This has been shaken by Szeth, and his response to that was good. But I can imagine a sense of jealousy rising as he realises that Kaladin and even Shallan (probably) will be significantly more effective in the coming fight, simply because of their powers. It wouldn't be a jealousy for the power, but for the effectiveness, the ability to act on his morals in a meaningful way.  That jealousy would arise from the frustration of his usually successful approach of "just keep trying" simply not cutting it in this case, as the ability they have was not earned through effort. Why were they so blessed and not him?

About Renarin, Elhokar and Vader. I think I might have wrongly expressed myself by choosing Vader as an example. What I meant is both characters have something they want for themselves which isn't easily achievable: Elhokar wants renown, he wants to be a hero, he wants to be acclaimed as a great king; Renarin wants to feel useful, he wants to feel he can contribute to this world. I have always felt those were dangerous flaws to arbor as they could easily be manipulated into joining forces with the evil in order to obtain what good is not giving them. All fallen heroes have one thing in common: they felt they weren't appreciated enough. 

Adolin doesn't have those characteristics. He wants little for himself which makes it harder of Odium to have a hand on him. The only way I could see it happening if he becomes completely convinced his father is wrong, totally completely wrong and the only way to "save" him is to oppose him.

For the rest, I believe it is important to draw the difference in between having a lack of self-confidence and a lack of self-esteem. Adolin lacks the former, not the later. He has self-esteem, he knows he is good at a few things, most notably sword fighting. He however constantly doubt himself, he fears his skills might not be enough to accomplish what he feels he needs to accomplish. He also doesn't have the self-confidence to try himself at subjects falling outside his comfort zone: he isn't dumb, but he plays at being dumb most probably by fear of falling at not being... dumb.

His response to Szeth's attack wasn't good... not in my opinion. What did he do? He put on his Plate and he sat at his father's doorstep chewing drugs to keep himself awake just to be ready in case the Assassin came back. He had to be ready, to be prepared, to never be taken without his Plate, not again. On the morning, he goes practicing the one move he thinks might have been useful`: throwing the Blade, but he is so ridden with stress and anxiety he cannot control it appropriately. 

It was extreme and I do believe it shows how unsettled Adolin can get when his world is challenged. Bottom line is he is anxious. This scene right here was pure anxiety and I loved it.

Jealousy? Adolin saw Kaladin did better than him: he even admits it to himself and yet he doesn't feel jealous. He feels reassure Kaladin is practicing as well, bettering himself because in between the two of them, they might keep his father safe.

I do see him having growing frustration when it comes to seeing everyone else having such an advantage in a domain where he is supposed to the best. I do see him working himself hard in trying to keep up and yet fail, but I do not see him envying them. When push to the extreme, I think Adolin is more likely to do something rash, stupid and dangerous more than feeling jealous.

4 hours ago, Massik said:

I agree, for the most part, save his confidence.  

He has confidence in standing up for others and in challenging all of Sadeus' loyalists in duels as well as on the battlefield.  

He does have a loud personality, but I'm not sure it's compensation.  How he starts behaving towards Kal shows he has some humility.  

Lack of self-confidence comes in various flavor: you can have confidence enough in yourself to stand up to others, but you can lack self-confidence in opening up yourself for potential relationship. 

He has a loud personality and no, not all of it is compensation, but some of it is. The parts where he smiles broadly stating everything is fine when inside he is anxiety ridden are example of this. 

[Massik he/him]

I dunno.  Everyone gets anxious about some things, sometimes.  Wouldn't it say more if he never got anxious about anything?  I can't think of any of the characters that don't at times question themselves internally, while putting on a bold face, externally.

If you're referring to any past relationships with him and how it ks with Shallan (and you're not just using ot as a random/theoretical example of what you mean) he kinda has reason to be anxious around Shallan.  She's not like other lighteyed women he's known, where he destroys any chance of being with them long term, because he isn't really interested; where he is more just expected to court because of his standing.  

He is intrigued with Shallan, and doesn't quite know how to proceed, since she is different and he actually wants to see where it goes. I think,it's intended to be "cute".

He has no experience in taking things to the next level in any meaningful way.  It seems a pretty normal reaction, IMO.  

 

Edited November 4, 2016 by Massik

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19 hours ago, Massik said:

I dunno.  Everyone gets anxious about some things, sometimes.  Wouldn't it say more if he never got anxious about anything?  I can't think of any of the characters that don't at times question themselves internally, while putting on a bold face, externally.

If you're referring to any past relationships with him and how it ks with Shallan (and you're not just using ot as a random/theoretical example of what you mean) he kinda has reason to be anxious around Shallan.  She's not like other lighteyed women he's known, where he destroys any chance of being with them long term, because he isn't really interested; where he is more just expected to court because of his standing.  

He is intrigued with Shallan, and doesn't quite know how to proceed, since she is different and he actually wants to see where it goes. I think,it's intended to be "cute".

He has no experience in taking things to the next level in any meaningful way.  It seems a pretty normal reaction, IMO.  

 

Everyone gets anxious from times to times but some people are more prone to it than others. Typically, these would be the people who dislike change, who like their routine, who prefer when things are predictable and who are more easily unsettled by the arrival of the unknown. Within the story, Adolin has been more disturbed than the other characters about the concept of visions, he has been the most ill-at-ease with their discovery of Urithiru and he has been the one to advocate for status quo as opposed to change. He only agrees for change once he is convinced it is the only way, but still he has a hard time dealing with the visions. When his father names him Highprince, he reacts with anxiety, not with pride or pleasure or a sense of satisfaction: he doesn't want this title and thinking he might get it, now, creates anxiety in him.

Neither Kaladin nor Dalinar nor Shallan reacts in similar manners as Adolin. Shallan prefers not to think of the consequences. Dalinar sees them and accept they might happen. Kaladin just keeps on going feeling more depressed "something else" just happened to him. Adolin thinks of what might be and it puts him into a bad mood. Just look at his interactions with Sadeas prior to killing him: he wanted to act, but he controlled himself. Why? He had a plan, a line to follow, a guide: without any of those, he looses it. 

Of course, other characters have been anxious too, but it seems to be recurrent with Adolin: event happens, Adolin flips out.

As for the relationship, I meant the reason it never works is link to the idea he doesn't feel good enough for any of those (WoB to confirm it), so he tends to self-sabotage every single one of those before they amount to anything tangible. This again highlight a lack of self-confidence. He has no experienced, but considering his track record, he should have. It is not normal he doesn't have it, he never managed to push it to the next level: he isn't a young teenager anymore. He is a man, but he is lacking in his development here. Something is holding him back which is far greater than just the "I haven't find the right one yet". Not only do we have a WoB to confirm it, but there is also the fact Adolin genuinely wants his relationships to work. He didn't plan to be a player, he just happened to be because he can't commit to anyone. Sure, Shallan is a bit different because he made a mistake he hasn't made yet: he allowed himself to fall in love. This, I suspect, never happened before because our Adolin killed the relationship before love could blossom, but Shallan took him by surprise... And yeah, I do find it "cute".

As for the bold face, Adolin explicitly states within his own POV how he likes to pretend he is confident in front of everyone else, especially Renarin, such as not to worry them. When he talks to his Blade, he admits he does doubt his own ability, but he has refused to share his fears because he feels others rely on him too much. No other character has had such discourse, only Adolin. A large chunk of his character is about projecting what he feels others need/want to see as opposed to whom he truly is.