Parshendi, Voidbringers, and Chasmfiends

[Argent he/him]

I've been listening to the Graphic Audio adaptation of The Way of Kings, and a certain passage made me wonder about something. 

In Chapter 28: Decision, Dalinar talks with Jasnah over a spanreed. She, through Shallan, sends him a drawing he describes as such:

Quote

The picture resolved into a depiction of a tall shadow looming over some buildings. Hints of carapace and claws showed in the thin ink lines, and shadows were made by drawing finer lines close together.

To which Adolin adds this:

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“It’s a chasmfiend,” Adolin said, pointing. “It’s distorted—far more menacing in the face and larger at the shoulders, and I don’t see its second set of foreclaws—but someone was obviously trying to draw one of them.”

The image is, of course, this one (I think?).

Jasnah says that the "book describes this as a picture of a Voidbringer" and that "The book is a copy of a text originally written in the years before the Recreance. However, the illustrations are copied from another text, even older. In fact, some think that picture was drawn only two or three generations after the Heralds departed."

Now, we know - or at least we think we know - that the Voidbringers are the Parshendi, or that the two are very closely related. It is possible that the Parshendi stormform and the Voidbringers are one and the same, or it is possible that stormform is merely one of the manifestation of the Voidbringers, which in turn are a collection of all of the Parshendi "voidforms" (as I call them). I believe I once saw a theory here that claimed that stormform is just a... predecessor of the true voidforms, of the true Voidbringers.

Regardless, what I find interesting is that there exists a possibility that one of the Parshendi forms allows them to turn into something similar to chasmfiends, which is what the ancient artist was depicting there. In fact, I think it is also possible that the modern day chasmfiends are, in some way, descendents of some of the ancient Voidbringers! I would be very interested in finding out whether chasmfiends existed before Aharietiam, and whether Parshendi carry gemhearts, perhaps even emerald gemhearts.

What do you think?

[marianmi]

My theory is that all great shells can bind spren like the parshendi. And during each Everstorm there's a possibility they will bind with a odium spren, and odium will take control of it => voidbringer.

[Yata he/him]

2 hours ago, Argent said:

Regardless, what I find interesting is that there exists a possibility that one of the Parshendi forms allows them to turn into something similar to chasmfiends, which is what the ancient artist was depicting there. In fact, I think it is also possible that the modern day chasmfiends are, in some way, descendents of some of the ancient Voidbringers! I would be very interested in finding out whether chasmfiends existed before Aharietiam, and whether Parshendi carry gemhearts, perhaps even emerald gemhearts.

What do you think?

I am quite sure there is a WoB aganist this idea (Yata runs on Theoryland!)

EDIT:

Quote

Are Kaladin's parents still alive, and if so, are they actually mad at him?

2. Do dead parshmen turn into Chasmfieds?

3. What is the dark-glowing sphere?

4. What did Szeth do to become a Truthless, and is there anything else involved in being a Truthless that we haven't seen?"

BRANDON SANDERSON (GOODREADS)

1. Yes, they are still alive. RAFO.

2. No.

3. Major big RAFO.

4. Szeth was perceived as betraying his people in a fundamental way, and you will learn more about that when his book comes along.

Actually it talks about "dead parshmen" while I remembered "parshmen" at all....My bad, therefore there is more space in this WoB to be a trick

Edited October 9, 2016 by Yata

[cometaryorbit]

There's at least one reference to Shardblades being designed to fight giant monsters. So whether chasmfiends are involved or not, I'd expect Odium's forces to include a lot more than Parshendi forms. I'm not sure what the definition of Voidbringer is though - the Midnight Essence apparently isn't a voidbringer.

[goody153]

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it is possible that stormform is merely one of the manifestation of the Voidbringers, which in turn are a collection of all of the Parshendi "voidforms" (as I call them).

Yeah

There has been indeed alot of remarked similarities with the voidbringers and maybe weird remarks(that might be hints foreshadowing or some rust) of chasmfiends from some characters

Edited October 9, 2016 by goody153

[Yata he/him]

3 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

There's at least one reference to Shardblades being designed to fight giant monsters. So whether chasmfiends are involved or not, I'd expect Odium's forces to include a lot more than Parshendi forms. I'm not sure what the definition of Voidbringer is though - the Midnight Essence apparently isn't a voidbringer.

Well there are the Thunderclast (se saw them in the WoTK Prologue and at least in one Dalinar's Vision) in the Odium's forces

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

All Parshendi are Voidbringers but not all Voidbringers are Parshendi?

[Yata he/him]

4 minutes ago, AnanasSpren said:

All Parshendi are Voidbringers but not all Voidbringers are Parshendi?

All Parshendi may become Voidbringer, but probably "Voidbringer" is a word used to design the whole Force of Evil (like you may "Demon" in Christian Literature). For example no one (except the very informed one) may never talk (or probably remember) words like "thunderclast" or "Midnight essence"

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

3 hours ago, Yata said:

All Parshendi may become Voidbringer, but probably "Voidbringer" is a word used to design the whole Force of Evil (like you may "Demon" in Christian Literature). For example no one (except the very informed one) may never talk (or probably remember) words like "thunderclast" or "Midnight essence"

Was a mock post Yata I'll have to disagree with you Arg on there being a possible form to transform a Listener into a chasmfiend-esque visage. All the forms we've seen so far have altered Listener physiology but nothing to the extent they resemble a chasmfiend...unless perhaps one grants them a helm with a chitinous-insectoid/crustacean look

Edited October 9, 2016 by AnanasSpren

[Yata he/him]

1 hour ago, AnanasSpren said:

Was a mock post Yata I'll have to disagree with you Arg on there being a possible form to transform a Listener into a chasmfiend-esque visage. All the forms we've seen so far have altered Listener physiology but nothing to the extent they resemble a chasmfiend...unless perhaps one grants them a helm with a chitinous-insectoid/crustacean look

Maybe I was misunderstood. I don't think a Listener may turn in a Chasmfield-like being.

I want just to say that probably the word "Voidbringer" is a generic term (at least for the not well informed) for the members of Odium's force (as to say "enemy") were they listener or not

Edited October 9, 2016 by Yata

[Assassin in Burgundy he/him]

Could chasmfiends' "stormform" be thunderclasts? Or the other way around?

[Magestar he/him]

37 minutes ago, Yata said:

Maybe I was misunderstood. I don't think a Listener may turn in a Chasmfield-like being.

I want just to say that probably the word "Voidbringer" is a generic term (at least for the not well informed) for the members of Odium's force (as to say "enemy") were they listener or not

I think he was probably talking to Argent.  

1 hour ago, AnanasSpren said:

I'll have to disagree with you Arg on there being a possible form to transform a Listener into a chasmfiend-esque visage.

Thus the Arg.  I would have to agree with Ananas that it seems unlikely that anything could transform a Parshendi to that extent.  Most Cognitively inspire changes in physiology do not effect size to a great extent, at least not the extent needed to turn a man-sized being into something even bigger than an elephant.   I think it is more likely that a chasmfiend is turned into something else by bonding a spren, as already has been suggested.  Chasmfiends have a relationship with spren already, to an extent, (I think it's gravityspren, or something.  Theres a quote in the chasm scene, but I can't find it RN.) so it would not be surprising that they could have a 'bond' with spren, to some extent.  I would find it even more likely that Odium could somehow effect Chasmfiends minds in some way.

[Yata he/him]

33 minutes ago, Magestar said:

I think he was probably talking to Argent.  

Ok, I am an idiot 

[cometaryorbit]

10 hours ago, Yata said:

Well there are the Thunderclast (se saw them in the WoTK Prologue and at least in one Dalinar's Vision) in the Odium's forces

True. Are they Voidbringers? The Midnight Essence apparently isn't, it's one of the Ten Deaths... maybe the Thunderclast is another of the Ten Deaths (if they match the Ten Essences then Midnight Essence would be Vapor (smoke) and Thunderclast would be Talus (stone).

3 hours ago, Assassin in Burgundy said:

Could chasmfiends' "stormform" be thunderclasts? Or the other way around?

I don't think so... Dalinar's vision shows the thunderclast formed from spren animating rock.

[marianmi]

5 hours ago, Magestar said:

 Chasmfiends have a relationship with spren already, to an extent, (I think it's gravityspren, or something.  Theres a quote in the chasm scene, but I can't find it RN.) so it would not be surprising that they could have a 'bond' with spren, to some extent.  I would find it even more likely that Odium could somehow effect Chasmfiends minds in some way.

 

I remember it was distinctly specified that greatshells are bonded to spren, and this bond allows them to reach their size. Without spren, they could not get to that size (and live).

[Magestar he/him]

9 minutes ago, marianmi said:

I remember it was distinctly specified that greatshells are bonded to spren, and this bond allows them to reach their size. Without spren, they could not get to that size (and live).

That sounds right.   It probably has something to do with the fact that carapaced creatures cannot grow above a certain size without dying, simply because they end up weighing too much.  The weight/muscle ratio is impossible to upkeep.  I assumed that it was Gravityspren, and they enabled the greatshells to keep up their massive weight in some way.

Thanks for backing me up, btw.  Have an upvote.

[Argent he/him]

7 hours ago, AnanasSpren said:

Was a mock post Yata I'll have to disagree with you Arg on there being a possible form to transform a Listener into a chasmfiend-esque visage. All the forms we've seen so far have altered Listener physiology but nothing to the extent they resemble a chasmfiend...unless perhaps one grants them a helm with a chitinous-insectoid/crustacean look

True, but we have seen only one voidform, and it is already dramatically different from the other, more... neutral ones. Who's the say what other powers the odiumspren can grant?

I will admit that it's not the best theory out there. But I also don't think the conversation between Dalinar and Jasnah has fully served its purpose. Jasnah herself admits that it should probably not be taken literally, but I will insist that if there was no connection, Brandon wouldn't put it in. Unless it was a misdirection of some sorts, but since the idea is not explored any further, I don't think that's the case either.

[marianmi]

I think power forms grant <<power>> (magic ability, like surges), not <<size>>

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

Or perhaps a form grants power/dominion over a chasmfiend, it would explain the link a little bit

[marianmi]

50 minutes ago, AnanasSpren said:

Or perhaps a form grants power/dominion over a chasmfiend, it would explain the link a little bit

Well, we were arguing that it makes more sense for Odium to take control of chasmfiends via spren (like he seems to be taking control over parshendi), than to have controlled parshendi taking control of chasmfiends.

[soyperson]

8 hours ago, Magestar said:

 I think it is more likely that a chasmfiend is turned into something else by bonding a spren, as already has been suggested.  Chasmfiends have a relationship with spren already, to an extent, (I think it's gravityspren, or something.  Theres a quote in the chasm scene, but I can't find it RN.) so it would not be surprising that they could have a 'bond' with spren, to some extent.  I would find it even more likely that Odium could somehow effect Chasmfiends minds in some way.

A bit like the skyeels and the windspren? A symbiosis, of sorts?

[Turbonator]

11 minutes ago, marianmi said:

Well, we were arguing that it makes more sense for Odium to take control of chasmfiends via spren (like he seems to be taking control over parshendi), than to have controlled parshendi taking control of chasmfiends.

And then each chasmfiend would control a horde of chulls, each of which controls a whitespine. 

I myself really think that all greatshells will be turned into Voidbringers. Even whitespines, which might turn out to be scarier than chasmfiends. Heck, skyeels might turn evil too.

[Magestar he/him]

13 hours ago, Argent said:

True, but we have seen only one voidform, and it is already dramatically different from the other, more... neutral ones. Who's the say what other powers the odiumspren can grant?

I really like this idea;  The only flaw I can see, is the fact that there would have to be a drastic -really and absurd- change in size.  Parshmen are humanoid;  The thing in the picture towered over buildings.

12 hours ago, marianmi said:

I think power forms grant <<power>> (magic ability, like surges), not <<size>>

This.  On most levels, this is what I'm trying to say.  Warform probably causes Parshmen to grow a bit, but not that drastically.  I suppode it's possible for a huge change in size to happen, but the mass would have to come from somewhere, and it would take a long time.  Maybe like the Razaac.

9 hours ago, bleeder said:

A bit like the skyeels and the windspren? A symbiosis, of sorts?

Yup.  It makes sense to me that spren can bond most things, however, a greatshell's GemHeart provides investiture, which spren like, and spren provide the heavy lifting.

9 hours ago, Turbonator said:

I myself really think that all greatshells will be turned into Voidbringers. Even whitespines, which might turn out to be scarier than chasmfiends. Heck, skyeels might turn evil too.

10 hours ago, marianmi said:

Well, we were arguing that it makes more sense for Odium to take control of chasmfiends via spren (like he seems to be taking control over parshendi), than to have controlled parshendi taking control of chasmfiends.

This makes sense.  It makes a little more sense for Chasmfeinds, because they provide investiture (to some extent), but I don't see a reason that Odium couldn't control other things with spren.  Skyeels?  Meh.   I don't know.  

But now I want to see Evil!Whitespines.  Like they aren't already creepy enough.   

HoA Spoilers.

Spoiler

 Similar to how Ruin controls things with Spikes.  I think that sort of thing can be done to most beings with a cognitive aspect.

 

[Argent he/him]

3 hours ago, Magestar said:

I really like this idea;  The only flaw I can see, is the fact that there would have to be a drastic -really and absurd- change in size.  Parshmen are humanoid;  The thing in the picture towered over buildings.

Fair. I could argue that they don't need to turn into a fully grown chasmfiend (or a chasmfiend at all; we do know that these greatshells pupate, but not for how long, how many times, and into what), but at this point I would be stretching the plausibility of my original suggestion. I don't have all the answers. Hell, I probably don't have most of the answers, but I still believe that there is a connection between the chasmfiends and the Voidbringers - one that goes beyond Jasnah's "the artist probably depicted the scariest thing she knew of" explanation.

[Magestar he/him]

1 hour ago, Argent said:

Hell, I probably don't have most of the answers, but I still believe that there is a connection between the chasmfiends and the Voidbringers - one that goes beyond Jasnah's "the artist probably depicted the scariest thing she knew of" explanation.

This is very probable.  I actually agree with you, and think that it's likely that the two are connected.