Breaking a Lifeless

[Tariniel he/him]

In Chapter 38 of Warbreaker, Lightsong mentions the ability to break a Lifeless in order to give it new Commands:

Quote

“I didn’t either,” Lightsong said. “Not until I required my priests to break this one. Apparently, it requires weeks to take control of a Lifeless for which you do not have the right security phrases. I’m not even sure how the process goes—has something to do with Breath and torture, apparently.”

“Torture?” she said. “Lifeless can’t feel.”

Lightsong shrugged. “Anyway, my servants broke this one for me. The stronger and more skilled the Awakener who created the Lifeless, the more difficult it is to break it.”

My question is: Do we know the specifics of this process? Seems like something that could be of note...

[Spoolofwhool]

My guess is that it requires the Command Breaking of the 8th Heightening as well as perhaps being related to the process Vasher used to erase the priest's daughter's memories.

[Yata he/him]

5 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

My guess is that it requires the Command Breaking of the 8th Heightening as well as perhaps being related to the process Vasher used to erase the priest's daughter's memories.

Do You mean that to you the "memory erase command" is an advanced application of "command break" ?

[Spoolofwhool]

5 hours ago, Yata said:

Do You mean that to you the "memory erase command" is an advanced application of "command break" ?

Possibly. I was just thinking of them as separate processes until you suggested it, but it might make sense for them to be connected.

[Oversleep]

On 9.10.2016 at 3:27 AM, Spoolofwhool said:

My guess is that it requires the Command Breaking of the 8th Heightening as well as perhaps being related to the process Vasher used to erase the priest's daughter's memories.

But the only one around of such high Heightening is Susebron.

[Spoolofwhool]

48 minutes ago, Oversleep said:

But the only one around of such high Heightening is Susebron.

This is true. I revisited what was actually said about Command Breaking and it turns out that 8th Heightening just grants the ability to instinctively override commands. This implies to me that it is then possible to do so without the 8th heightening. So the Command Breaking procedure that the 8th Heightening gives instinctively, but at a lower heightening, which probably involves learning the process manually.

[cometaryorbit]

Also, I'd imagine the 8th Heightening version probably doesn't take weeks or require torturing the Lifeless. The description's very vague, but I understood 8th Heightening Command Breaking to be just giving a Command to an already Awakened object that overrides the existing one.

[Yata he/him]

I re-read the parts in Warbreaker and I had the impression that Breaking a lifeless is quite "try all the possible Command words until I hit the right one". In this context probably more Breath you have and more you may notice some sign from the Lifeless when you are near the right one  (maybe just a feel) and when you reach the higher heighening you may actual feel the right command word intuitively (or with a couple of try)

[Savanorn he/him]

1 hour ago, Yata said:

I re-read the parts in Warbreaker and I had the impression that Breaking a lifeless is quite "try all the possible Command words until I hit the right one". In this context probably more Breath you have and more you may notice some sign from the Lifeless when you are near the right one  (maybe just a feel) and when you reach the higher heighening you may actual feel the right command word intuitively (or with a couple of try)

Then why the torture?

[Yata he/him]

Well we don't know if the torture is physical or something like try to twisting their Command or Command word.

The Lifeless are more sentient than the people think....maybe they are "hurt" when someone try to interact with then in a not proprer way.

But in the end, it's possible I have wrong.

[Oversleep]

3 hours ago, Yata said:

I had the impression that Breaking a lifeless is quite "try all the possible Command words until I hit the right one".

There are way too many combinations for that. Even with just two words phrases.

[Savanorn he/him]

On Sunday, November 13, 2016 at 11:17 PM, Oversleep said:

There are way too many combinations for that. Even with just two words phrases.

My thoughts exactly. Not to mention we've seen Commands of four words which would take...what? Practically forever?

I'm betting the Lifeless would wear out before you guessed it in this method. 

[Yata he/him]

Unless there are some restrictions on the words usable in Commands.....but you have right, it's an huge number of combinations (also removing all the pratical useless ones)

[Oversleep]

8 hours ago, Yata said:

Unless there are some restrictions on the words usable in Commands.....but you have right, it's an huge number of combinations (also removing all the pratical useless ones)

Even if we go with only 200 most popular words it makes about 40 000 combinations for the Security Phrase. Unbreakeable by human brute-force.

[Yata he/him]

16 minutes ago, Oversleep said:

Even if we go with only 200 most popular words it makes about 40 000 combinations for the Security Phrase. Unbreakeable by human brute-force.

Yes yes you have probably right, I was just trying to find a method....Thousands of that 40k words are actually too common to be used as valid commands.

Now that I think about...A Lightsong's man didn't say something about "he used a modern command for the lifeless" (the squirrel)...therefore it may be actually be some kind of "upgrade" of codes over the time. But I can't actually figure how this is possible

 

[Savanorn he/him]

9 hours ago, Yata said:

Yes yes you have probably right, I was just trying to find a method....Thousands of that 40k words are actually too common to be used as valid commands.

Now that I think about...A Lightsong's man didn't say something about "he used a modern command for the lifeless" (the squirrel)...therefore it may be actually be some kind of "upgrade" of codes over the time. But I can't actually figure how this is possible

 

Hmmm. 

This is what makes me think the torture is somehow important. 

Wait. 

Wait. A thought occurs to me. We

Spoiler

 

saw in Mistborn that pain can actually weaken the influence of investiture on a person (part of why Zane could cut himself to dull Ruin's voice) what if it works the same for lifeless? I mean they are apparently more alive than we give them credit for.

So maybe you can methodically cause pain to weaken the "grip" of the Command? Doing this might somehow allow another awakener to force the lifeless to reveal it's Command. 

Hmmmm. 

It might also have something to do with an Awakener simply being able to sense the command used under the right circumstance. I don't know this. 

But.  We know that enough breath allows this to be done instinctively, maybe fewer breathes allow it to be done methodically? 

 

I actually didn't mean to spoiler all that. Just the Mistborn stuff. 

[Oversleep]

9 hours ago, Yata said:

A Lightsong's man didn't say something about "he used a modern command for the lifeless" (the squirrel)...therefore it may be actually be some kind of "upgrade" of codes over the time. But I can't actually figure how this is possible

I think he meant "modern command" as "the single Breath Command". It's " Awaken to my Breath, serve my needs, live at my Command and at my word. <Security phrase>." as opposed to the old ones which took way more Breath.

[Yata he/him]

5 hours ago, Ookla the Sunrise Watcher said:

I think he meant "modern command" as "the single Breath Command". It's " Awaken to my Breath, serve my needs, live at my Command and at my word. <Security phrase>." as opposed to the old ones which took way more Breath.

You may be right...but the Single-Breath Command are well known for some centuries, I find strange he refer to that as modern while the whole Awakening's knowledge isn't much more older

[The One Who Connects he/him]

On 11/13/2016 at 4:03 AM, Yata said:

Well we don't know if the torture is physical or something like try to twisting their Command or Command word.

The Lifeless are more sentient than the people think....maybe they are "hurt" when someone try to interact with then in a not proper way.

But in the end, it's possible I have wrong.

15 hours ago, Savanorn said:

Maybe you can methodically cause pain to weaken the "grip" of the Command? Doing this might somehow allow another awakener to force the lifeless to reveal it's Command. 

I'm combining the emphasized sections into my own crazy idea. Imagine the pain as a two pronged attack.

1. Pain weakens the grip of the investiture behind the command.
   • The command breaker may be able to temporarily disable the active commands (pseudo-factory reset?)
   • The breaker could use that time to command it to reveal part/all of its Command phrase
     • "Some" depending on how short of a short-circuit they can create (more/stronger breath, etc..)
2. The lifeless is "hurt" during the torture.
   • The lifeless may have a reaction to using some of the right words
     • Half-right command makes lifeless start to move before command fails (interpreted as feeling pain)

Combine the Prongs and you can intuit things much faster

Disclaimer: This is another of my 2 minute theories. Take at face value and with a grain of salt

[Savanorn he/him]

8 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

I'm combining the emphasized sections into my own crazy idea. Imagine the pain as a two pronged attack.

1. Pain weakens the grip of the investiture behind the command.
   • The command breaker may be able to temporarily disable the active commands (pseudo-factory reset?)
   • The breaker could use that time to command it to reveal part/all of its Command phrase
     • "Some" depending on how short of a short-circuit they can create (more/stronger breath, etc..)
2. The lifeless is "hurt" during the torture.
   • The lifeless may have a reaction to using some of the right words
     • Half-right command makes lifeless start to move before command fails (interpreted as feeling pain)

Combine the Prongs and you can intuit things much faster

Disclaimer: This is another of my 2 minute theories. Take at face value and with a grain of salt

Hmmm. I like it.