Kaladin and spren revival

[Djarskublar he/him]

So I was rereading WoR, and I saw something that has bothered me for a while, but I hadn't really thought about deeply. Before Kaladin says his next Words, he hears Syl and the Stormfather talking to each other. That shouldn't be possible if she was actually dead. This presents to me two possibilities, both of which are intriguing. The first is that she wasn't totally dead in the first place, but the Stormfather was deliberately keeping her away from his so that he wouldn't have access to his powers. I think this is more likely, but I want my other idea to be true more. The other idea is that she was actually revived before he said the words, and for whatever reason (the Stormfather holding her back, most likely) she couldn't get to him immediately.

If the second case is true, then we have something very interesting going on here. She was revived, not by the Words, but by Kaladin's determination to do something about the assassination, even if he didn't fully realize what he was doing at first. This would mean that she was revived by Intent, not by action. That would be a really cool twist. That would also have ramifications for the potential Adolin Blade revival arc.

Is there something that I missed here? I would like to know.

[Yata he/him]

First of all I think that Syl was really dead.

Kal "resurrected" her re-spoking his first (or the first two) Oath. Then the Stormfather restrained her to return from Kal but She manage to do it because the improved bond is more than what Stormfather may completely influence (or of an ethics reason of the Stormfather itself)

[Djarskublar he/him]

24 minutes ago, Yata said:

First of all I think that Syl was really dead.

Kal "resurrected" her re-spoking his first (or the first two) Oath. Then the Stormfather restrained her to return from Kal but She manage to do it because the improved bond is more than what Stormfather may completely influence (or of an ethics reason of the Stormfather itself)

I hope she was fully dead. Not to sound callous, but it makes a better story.

To actually reply, though, I don't think that he had restated any of the other words first. I will definitely check that, particularly at the lighteyes training ground. He had maybe said the Life before Death etc words while there. For the other part of that, she was speaking with the Stormfather before he said the next Words. She had already been revived, and was constrained by the Stormfather. The thing in question is when and by what cause. I think it was his Intent leading into him stopping Moash. He started following his Oaths again, so she got revived.

[Landis963 he/him]

I don't recall the exact wording, but he definitely goes through the Second Ideal and all parts of the First before hearing Syl and the Stormfather.  

[Yata he/him]

I think (but I have no sure proofs) Kal needed only to speak again the First Oath (and have the right mindset) to revive Syl and reforge their bond at L1, then He quickly strenghten the bond with the other Oaths.

[asterion137 he/him]

I assumed it was kaladin going back to the ideals of the Windrunners, including the one he hadn't spoken yet. Just like failing to live by the oaths will "kill" the bonded spren, returning to the oaths ought to revive the spren, since spren can't truly die.

[Argel he/him]

If Syl really died, then shouldn't there have been some regression, memory loss, and/or noticeable trauma? 

[The One Who Connects he/him]

On 9/29/2016 at 10:56 AM, Argel said:

If Syl really died, then shouldn't there have been some regression, memory loss, and/or noticeable trauma? 

I feel like it's a slow death, reverting back into a mindless spren. Since she was revived much faster than after the Recreance, she was still mostly there. Granted, there should still be something lost either way, but I don't feel like Spren follow all the normal human rules of death.

Edit: Semi Relevant WoB

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

Dying, as long as the oaths are not broken, does not affect the spren in a very terrible way. There are effects.

Breaking the connection in any way has some effect, so I imagine that Syl should show some effect of the oathbreaking

Edited October 5, 2016 by The One Who Connects
WoB

[Djarskublar he/him]

Alright so the general consensus is that he was respeaking his Oaths, and that revived her? I can accept that, though I still like the idea that it was his Intent (capital I) to stop the assassination that revived her.

I guess restating the three possibilities that have been presented would be relevant. The first is that upon restating the first Oath she was revived. The second is that as he started to follow the ideals properly again, that revived her (this doesn't necessarily include respeaking Oaths). The third is that his Intent to stop the assassination was enough to fix the problem, since that was the problem that made him break his Oaths in the first place.

I think all three would sufficiently explain why she was talking with the Stormfather before Kaladin spoke the third Oath. The second and third option are admittedly very similar and may only practically vary in timing.

I agree with @The One Who Connects on this, though. She wasn't totally dead, just mostly, so perhaps she was still able to communicate with the Stormfather at that point since she wasn't totally dead yet. On the other hand, she had kinda been dying for weeks, ever since Kaladin found out about the plot. She was extremely childlike leading up to the Chasm scene where she damaged herself to pass Kaladin some Light. That suggests that even if she wasn't completely dead yet, she was dead enough to not be capable of proper communication anymore.

[Eki]

1 hour ago, The One Who Connects said:

I feel like it's a slow death, reverting back into a mindless spren. Since she was revived much faster than after the Recreance, she was still mostly there. Granted, there should still be something lost either way, but I don't feel like Spren follow all the normal human rules of death.

We don't know if she was bonded to anyone at the time of the Recreance (or if she was, but her Knight died without giving up thier oaths). It's possible that her fading into non-sentience would be similar to what happened when Kaladin started breaking his oaths though, since Kaladin had only sworn two oaths at that point. The process was probably much more drastic for the poor spren who got trapped in shardblade form.

[Magestar he/him]

I think it makes sense that she was almost totally 'dead', although I believe there is something in the book about spren not 'dying', however, she was definitely on her way out.  Basically, she was nearly dead, having been severely damaged by Kaladin's acts.

However, she was not entirely dead.  What brings a Spren sentience is their bond.  When Kaladin reswore the oaths, and started acting properly, that reforged the bond really quickly, whereas previously it happened slowly, over the course of two books.   That was like someone slowly healing;  This is like an Adrenaline shot for Spren.  It brought Syl back really fast, and then some, when he swore the final oath.

17 minutes ago, Djarskublar said:

Alright so the general consensus is that he was respeaking his Oaths, and that revived her? I can accept that, though I still like the idea that it was his Intent (capital I) to stop the assassination that revived her.

That seems right.  I also think Intent has to play a major part in it, as for someone who just 'swore the oaths' and did not intend to do anything about it, I doubt that a Spren would be revived.

You have to swear the oaths, with feeling!  

But yeah, great job.

[If.you.die.I.go.stupid]

When Kaladin tried really hard to breath in stormlight he heard crying. I always wondered about that. I'd have expected him to hear screaming like he did with the blades. Perhaps Syl wasn't fully dead. 

[What's a Seawolf?]

Doesn't at some point Kaladin say, "I thought I killed you."

And Syl replies, "You almost did."

I may be misremembering the wording, but I think it says or implies that Syl nearly died, but not quite.

[goody153]

Didn't Syl also say "I'm only as dead as your oaths Kaladin" and also in the spoiler kaladin chapter for SA3 

Spoiler

 

“The longer I’m with you,” she said with a nod, “the more it happens. Assuming you don’t try to kill me again.” She gave him a sideways look.

Syl used "try to kill me" instead of "killed me". 

but i thought Syl was actually dead and Kaladin just revived her. Afaik one of the characters mentioned(probably pattern) once that something could've been done to the dead shardblades if their knights were alive (so so long as the knights were alive they could probably revive the shards ? idk)

Edited October 1, 2016 by goody153

[The One Who Connects he/him]

While this might not actually relate to the conversation, if we compare reviving a Spren to respiking a Kandra...

Quote

TenSoon feared that this was the end of his people, and it could have been, if those spikes hadn't gone back in quickly. As it was, there were costs. Time spent without spikes causes a kandra's memories to deteriorate, and some that were left a relatively long time were essentially reborn as new people.

I feel like we can relate "speaking his oaths again" to "putting the spikes back in."

[Eki]

3 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

I feel like we can relate "speaking his oaths again" to "putting the spikes back in."

A good comparison, I think. The Nahel bond seems to bring spren closer to the physical realm, giving them sentience in that realm. The spikes in a kandra removes the cognitive blocking from a mistwraith, also giving them sentience.