Siri's Ascension

[EdgedancerDan]

Hey guys (this is my first post),

So when I first read Secret History, I noticed that those who are Cosmere-versed, being Nahz, Khriss, Hoid, the Elantrians, etc., call the bodies of the shards Preservation and Ruin Vessels. If you need validation, read the section where Kelsier infiltrates the Elantrians' base.

Anyway. Siri is called by the priests on Nalthis as Vessel as well. While this seems just like a derogatory term, I think it could mean a lot more.

I believe that Siri will ascend and take the shard Endowment. It sounds crazy and has very little concrete proof but I thought I'd post this and see if you guys had any thoughts. My theory is as follows:

We know very little about how the God Kings have been produced in the past. We know that they are babies who have been still born and have Returned. Or at least that is what we are lead to believe. We also know that the priests know a lot of things that they don't tell the Returned. I believe that Siri will either die or be severely injured in childbirth. This will also result in the death of her and Susebron's child. We have no idea how Returned can have children, as it is thought impossible during Siri's time, but it is because the Idrian royal family have Returned blood (Royal Locks). The fact that the child is half Returned will allow the baby to Return a lot easier, basically because it's already half way there.

We also know that there can be only one God King at a time. So upon Siri's death Susebron will try to heal her using his one divine breath. This causes his death, like the previous God King's before. And since his breath is so powerful, it basically causes a chain reaction throughout the vicinity, healing and reviving those in need. The plagues and disasters that were "prevented" due to the previous God Kings' deaths were coincidences or fabrications set up by the priests of Hallendren. This should not be surprising as they seem to have their own agenda, as seen in Warbreaker.

This leaves Siri to care for their child alone. Like Susebron's mother, she will care for the child until it is of an appropriate age to start ruling. Once this happens, Siri will disappear mysteriously, just like Susebron's mother. This will probably happen because the priests take her away. My guess is that she will be sacrificed to Endowment and the priests will increase he Connection to the shard. How? I don't know. Siri, still holding Susebron's divine breath, because without it she would have died, will give up the breath to her child, die and meet Endowment.

Upon dying, she will meet Endowment in the Cognitive Realm much like Kelsier meets Preservation. However, due to her increases Connection with Endowment, the shard will end up giving the power to Siri.

While it may be unclear as to why the priests of Hallendren would want the body (or Vessel) of Endowment to change, remember that the shard's intent influences the holder quite a bit. The longer they hold it the more the intent has control over them. For example, in Secret History, Preservation points out that Ati could control Ruin's intent a lot more in the early days, and has essentially been consumed by it. If the wielder of Endowment were to be consumed by the shard's intent, it may just give the power to everyone on the planet, essentially shattering the shard. The priests know this is a bad thing to happen (Elantris basically has no shards cause they were shattered and they aren't exactly so well off). They try to replace the shard as frequently as possible without being suspicious.

I know I made a lot (and I mean A LOT) of assumptions. But I think it has some basis. Maybe this won't happen exactly in this manner but I think the main point--that Siri will ascend and take Endowments power--will happen.

I have yet to ask Brandon about his use of the word Vessel. Next time I see him I definitely will.

Any thoughts? Is it complete crap? Or do you think it has some justification?

[The One Who Connects he/him]

It's an impressive first post, so have an upvote for that. I never really questioned Vessel beyond how the priests used it: The vessel to carry the God King's child. It.. could be what you imply, but I don't see a Shard changing hands without being killed.

22 minutes ago, EdgedancerDan said:

We have no idea how Returned can have children, as it is thought impossible during Siri's time, but it is because the Idrian royal family have Returned blood (Royal Locks). The fact that the child is half Returned will allow the baby to Return a lot easier, basically because it's already half way there.

You kinda lost me here. Are you saying Returned can have kids if they marry someone from the Idrian Royal Family?

Susebron is kind of a special case regarding Divine Breath usage, as he has his tongue back. The previous God Kings mentally transferred their breaths to the next one through some unknown process. (Breath to a stillborn while in the womb, but I've no idea how that works)
Edit Note: I still say this because "Return in the Womb" came from Brandon, and not the priests.

I don't feel like the priests would know about Endowment, mostly because I don't think that Vasher does. My opinion of course.
Although... the Terris knew about Ruin and Preservation.. so they might

I don't actually know if one can transfer their Divine Breath without it being used.. that's another thing to ask Brandon

One the note of asking Brandon, I wonder if Endowment appears before everyone in the Cognitive like Preservation did, or if she only goes to those she offers to Return..

Overall, its decently well thought out. It's hard to debate assumptions though, so I can't say much beyond what I already have

Edited September 23, 2016 by The One Who Connects

[Spoolofwhool]

43 minutes ago, EdgedancerDan said:

We also know that there can be only one God King at a time. So upon Siri's death Susebron will try to heal her using his one divine breath. This causes his death, like the previous God King's before.

Wasn't it stated in the Warbreaker that the previous God Kings weren't dead? They just gave up their trove of breaths to the next God King and were retired to an island. 

1 hour ago, EdgedancerDan said:

And since his breath is so powerful, it basically causes a chain reaction throughout the vicinity, healing and reviving those in need.

The God Kings were just normal returned, as far as I'm aware, except for the fact they possess a large trove of regular breaths that most other returned didn't possess, except for the Five Scholars. Their Divine Breath is the same as other returned, and can only heal one person, unless you're somehow suggesting that they're also using the trove of breaths to heal? But that doesn't make sense either.

47 minutes ago, EdgedancerDan said:

Upon dying, she will meet Endowment in the Cognitive Realm much like Kelsier meets Preservation. However, due to her increases Connection with Endowment, the shard will end up giving the power to Siri.

If she's dead, how is she suppose to get the power? Shardholders, last I checked, need to be alive, and dead people can't hold onto the power. Even though cognitive shadows are bound to a source of investiture, and can possibly influence it, I don't think they can actually become a vessel for it. So, my thoughts on that are that your theory is self-defeating. 

 

Overall, it is an interesting theory. The main assumption it relies on though, is that it requires that the priests are both realmatically aware, and aware of, and able to communicate with, Endowment. I don't think this is the case though. Vasher and the other Five Scholars appear to be the knowledgeable and realmatically aware Nalthians that we've seen, and they don't even seem to be aware of Endowment, so I doubt the priests have somehow managed to. As such, I don't think their use of the term "vessel" has any underlying meaning, and just meant, as @The One Who Connects said, the vessel for the next God King. Continuing from that, as I don't think they are realmatically aware or aware of Endowment, there's no way they would know about Sel, or its precarious situation there with the the Dor.

1 hour ago, EdgedancerDan said:

While it may be unclear as to why the priests of Hallendren would want the body (or Vessel) of Endowment to change, remember that the shard's intent influences the holder quite a bit. The longer they hold it the more the intent has control over them. For example, in Secret History, Preservation points out that Ati could control Ruin's intent a lot more in the early days, and has essentially been consumed by it. If the wielder of Endowment were to be consumed by the shard's intent, it may just give the power to everyone on the planet, essentially shattering the shard. The priests know this is a bad thing to happen (Elantris basically has no shards cause they were shattered and they aren't exactly so well off). They try to replace the shard as frequently as possible without being suspicious.

My question regarding this power, furthermore, is how you expect it to occur. The implications you're making seems to be that the priests are able to force the current holder of Endowment to relinquish the shard and give it to the next person they have chosen. I find it extremely hard to imagine a way for the priests to do so, even if they were aware of realmatics and Endowment. Endowment's power would exceed their's by magnitudes. In addition, I think you're over-empathizing the effect of a shard's intent on its holder. I doubt it would cause them to self-destruct, instead of just more deeply limiting their choices towards a specific extreme. . I also don't think that investing further into Nalthis in order to increase everyone's innate investiture would cause Endowment to shatter either. As long as the shard has a holder and a cognitive mind to hold everything together, it will be still be, in some measure, possessing its investiture. Based on what we've seen of shattering, it seems to involve a lack of control of the shard's investiture, following the shardholder's death. 

Final thoughts:

1 hour ago, EdgedancerDan said:

Siri, still holding Susebron's divine breath, because without it she would have died, will give up the breath to her child, die and meet Endowment.

I was under the impression that the divine breath was consumed to fuel the healing process, not that it turns whoever it is healing into a pseudo-returned. I suppose it's possible that the person would be receive it, but then there would probably be a lot more talk of 5th Heightening people and going to petition for healing would be a lot more widespread and popular. 

1 hour ago, EdgedancerDan said:

We know very little about how the God Kings have been produced in the past. We know that they are babies who have been still born and have Returned. Or at least that is what we are lead to believe. We also know that the priests know a lot of things that they don't tell the Returned. I believe that Siri will either die or be severely injured in childbirth. This will also result in the death of her and Susebron's child. We have no idea how Returned can have children, as it is thought impossible during Siri's time, but it is because the Idrian royal family have Returned blood (Royal Locks). The fact that the child is half Returned will allow the baby to Return a lot easier, basically because it's already half way there.

This is a fair thought. However, it seems to be more directed towards explaining how her child is more likely to be returned, versus explaining how she and Susebron are going to conceive a child in the first place. I agree that there is the possibly that the child being of a Returned and someone who is part-Returned would increase the chances that it becomes a Returned. After all, IIRC, the first God King had a child who became the second one, but after that the priests didn't bother, or were unable, to continue the bloodline, so the problem is more about conceiving the child. 

 

I think you make good points, but the overall conclusion you have drawn from them feels unlikely. Hopefully all the refutations I've made aren't too daunting. However, just keep in mind that anything I don't comment on I agree with, although I can't actually agree with anything regarding Secret History as that's the only Cosmere book I haven't yet read. 

[Yata he/him]

As other have already said. The "God King" is just a standard Returned with a ton of Breath...there isn't nothing special in him or in his Divine Breath (other than be an Awakener of the tenth Highening).
Almost all the "special features" of the Godking is actually fake or a misdirection as example:

- Every Returned may reproduce with the right method (or methods) as Vo did. It's not a feature of the God King only,simply they teach to the God King the method and they hope for the best (note: In the book we meet also a member of the Royal Family who Returned)

- The Godking's Divine Breath may heal a single person at once, the stories about "saving an entire village" are just excuse for removing a God King when someone else inherits his Breath Treasure.

If for hypotesis every people of the capital will give his Breath to a Returned....you will have 2 God Kings.

Now about the Priesthood. The God King's tradiction is quite recent, it has only 300 years (in warbreaker) and start when Vasher retire himself from the ruling giving this Treasure (that after 300 years is quite the 30-60% bigger by the way) to someone else. If everytime the godking changes Endowment's vessel change as well first of all we have probably a lot of Endowment's sliver running across Nalthis and much more no godking had actually a mother (because she will Ascend) while we know that Susebron was in his first years careb by his mother

Edited September 23, 2016 by Yata

[DeTess she/her]

I'm surprised no one mentioned this, but Siri wasn't meant to carry the gid-kings child. Or rather, her child would be stillborn and switched with a returned child the priests already had secured.

[Yata he/him]

6 minutes ago, randuir said:

I'm surprised no one mentioned this, but Siri wasn't meant to carry the gid-kings child. Or rather, her child would be stillborn and switched with a returned child the priests already had secured.

Well actually they wanted for Siri to be pregnant (hoping in whatever happened to Vo)....but they are a Plan B (with a baby Returned)

[EdgedancerDan]

While there are clearly a lot of flaws with my theory, it has become clear that our understanding of breath is rather limited. Thank you all for your input. Maybe upwind re reading Warbreaker a lot of these questions will become clear. A lot however will probably still remained unanswered until we get a Warbreaker sequel. 

In response to a few of you:

I had no idea about this Retunred from the Womb idea. That's very interesting. What I was trying to get at with the Royal Locks is that we know it's possible for the Returned to have children as they did in the past, creating the Idrian Royal family. 

 

I dont remember there being any mention of a God King retirement island. I thought it was just assumed that the God King would die as he gave up all his breath.

 

In Secret History Kelsier did hold the power of a Preservation, if briefly. From my understanding he would have become the shard if he had more connection to it. Because he didn't, he was forced to let it go.

 

Thanks again for your input. I actually have questions for Brandon now

 

[Naurock]

 

1 hour ago, EdgedancerDan said:

I had no idea about this Retunred from the Womb idea. That's very interesting. What I was trying to get at with the Royal Locks is that we know it's possible for the Returned to have children as they did in the past, creating the Idrian Royal family. 

If I recall correctly Vasher said yes, a Returned could have children but alluded to it being difficult (Maybe a Returned giving up their breath to the God King to fix anything that happened to the body preventing this?). I also think Bluefingers told Siri that the Priests use the a baby is returning as a sign that the God King's reign has come to a close and a new one needs to take the throne.

1 hour ago, EdgedancerDan said:

I dont remember there being any mention of a God King retirement island. I thought it was just assumed that the God King would die as he gave up all his breath.

I believe Bluefingers tipped Siri off that Susebron dies and asked her to inquire about it. The Priests told Siri about this "retirement island", but I'm quite certain it was a lie to placate her about her worries of Susebron dying. Much has probably been forgotten since the 5 Scholars and I think they held pretty tightly about how to give only the amount of breaths that they want to give. I'm sure, like you are, that Susebron would die just like Lightsong did. Also, I don't think the Priests know how to suppress a Divine Breath, so they wouldn't teach him how, and he would still needs breaths to survive afterwards. Like Vivenna told Vasher, he's expensive to keep around.

Edited September 23, 2016 by Naurock
grammar

[BeskarKomrk he/him]

22 minutes ago, Naurock said:

 

If I recall correctly Vasher said yes, a Returned could have children but alluded to it being difficult (Maybe a Returned giving up their breath to the God King to fix anything that happened to the body preventing this?). I also think Bluefingers told Siri that the Priests use the a baby is returning as a sign that the God King's reign has come to a close and a new one needs to take the throne.

I believe Bluefingers tipped Siri off that Susebron dies and asked her to inquire about it. The Priests told Siri about this "retirement island", but I'm quite certain it was a lie to placate her about her worries of Susebron dying. Much has probably been forgotten since the 5 Scholars and I think they held pretty tightly about how to give only the amount of breaths that they want to give. I'm sure, like you are, that Susebron would die just like Lightsong did. Also, I don't think the Priests know how to suppress a Divine Breath, so they wouldn't teach him how, and he would still needs breaths to survive afterwards. Like Vivenna told Vasher, he's expensive to keep around.

This is all backwards. Everybody in Hallandren believes that the previous God Kings sacrificed themselves to prevent disasters from ruining the kingdom. Bluefingers hints to Siri that something more is going on, and Siri investigates on her own. She finds that all the previous God Kings had "sacrificed themselves" very shortly after having children, leading her to believe that the priests were forcing the God Kings to die and pass on their Breaths. During the climax of the novel, she expressed this belief to one of the priests (Treledees, I think) and he looks completely shocked by this conclusion. He is the one who tells her that the God Kings retire to an island after they find a new Returned child, and he seems (to me) to be telling the truth in that moment. The priests honestly worship Susebron as God, and Treledees seems to find the idea of killing him extremely abhorrent. What makes you think that he is lying about the retirement thing? At the point when they have this discussion, the revolution has already started and their lives are in danger. I don't think he would lie just to make Siri feel better. Meanwhile, everything Bluefingers did or said to Siri was intended to manipulate her towards the goal of starting a war. How did he become a reliable source for any of these speculations?

From Warbreaker Chapter 55:

Quote

“Yes,” Siri said. “A Returned child you are going to make the next God King.”

He looked at her, shocked. “You know?”

“You’re planning to kill him, aren’t you?” she hissed. “Take Susebron’s Breath and leave him dead!”

“Colors, no!” Treledees said, shocked. “How—how could you think? No, we’d never do such a thing! Vessel, the God King needs only give away the treasure of Breaths he holds, investing them into the next God King, and then he can live the rest of his life—so long as he should desire—in peace. We change God Kings whenever an infant Returns. It is our sign that the previous God King has done his duty, and should be allowed to live the rest of his life without bearing his terrible burdens.”

Siri looked at him skeptically. “That’s foolish, Treledees. If the God King gives away his Breath, he will die.”

“No, there is a way,” the priest said.

And even more convincing, the annotation:

Quote

Note that Treledees is not lying about letting Susebron live out his life with Siri in peace. They have allowed previous God Kings to do that, once they had a successor in place.

 

Edited September 23, 2016 by BeskarKomrk
Added the quote

[Spoolofwhool]

5 minutes ago, Naurock said:

 

If I recall correctly Vasher said yes, a Returned could have children but alluded to it being difficult (Maybe a Returned giving up their breath to the God King to fix anything that happened to the body preventing this?). I also think Bluefingers told Siri that the Priests use the a baby is returning as a sign that the God King's reign has come to a close and a new one needs to take the throne.

I believe Bluefingers tipped Siri off that Susebron dies and asked her to inquire about it. The Priests told Siri about this "retirement island", but I'm quite certain it was a lie to placate her about her worries of Susebron dying. Much has probably been forgotten since the 5 Scholars and I think they held pretty tightly about how to give only the amount of breaths that they want to give. I'm sure, like you are, that Susebron would die just like Lightsong did. Also, I don't think the Priests know how to suppress a Divine Breath, so they wouldn't teach him how, and he would still needs breaths to survive afterwards. Like Vivenna told Vasher, he's expensive to keep around.

@BeskarKomrk ninjaed me on quoting about the God Kings not dying, but here's also a quote from the same chapter about the priesthood's stance on Returned having babies.

Quote

“I hesitate to mention this,” Treledees said, “as you are not a priest. But . . . if you survive and we do not . . .”

“Speak it,” she commanded.

“You cannot bear the God King a child,” he said. “Like all Returned, he is unable to sire children. We have not yet learned how the First Returned managed to have a child all those years ago. In fact . . .”

“You don’t even think he did,” she said. “You think the royal line is a fabrication.” Of course the priests dispute the record of the royal line coming from the First Returned, she thought. They wouldn’t want to give credibility to Idris’s claim to the throne.

He flushed. “It’s what people believe that matters. Regardless, we . . . have a child . . .”

- Warbreaker, Chapter 55

 

[Argel he/him]

39 minutes ago, BeskarKomrk said:

This is all backwards.

Have an upvote for putting to rest so much misinformation!

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

@Spoolofwhool the annotations say that the priest IS lying about her not being able to have a child with Susebron and confirms that she can if I am remembering correctly. 

Why don't we all go check the annotations and then come back to discuss this? I believe they are on the website.

[Spoolofwhool]

1 hour ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

@Spoolofwhool the annotations say that the priest IS lying about her not being able to have a child with Susebron and confirms that she can if I am remembering correctly. 

Why don't we all go check the annotations and then come back to discuss this? I believe they are on the website.

Fair enough. I checked and you are correct, somewhat. According to the annotations, Treledee is straying between truths and lies:

Quote

Treledees lies to her here about two things. First off, he does know how a God King can have a child, but he knows that the secret is also held by a secure group of priests on the islands. He doesn’t think letting Siri in on that one for now is a good idea. But he does want to pass on how to get Susebron’s Breaths away from him, should it become necessary. He knows that those need to be passed on, even if the God King does have a child. That’s the greater secret, but the one that needs to be known to Siri. Those Breaths cannot die with Susebron.

So, anyway, he’s lying about the God King not being able to have a child. (Or at least he sidesteps it. He says that the God King can’t sire a child, which is true unless certain steps are taken. He also says that he doesn’t know how the First Returned bore a child, which is true—he doesn’t know for certain if the First Returned used the same method that Treledees knows. He’s also sidestepping the fact that he does believe that the blood of the First Returned flows in the veins of the royal Idrian line.)

Still, this doesn't change my initial point about Siri not going to have Susebron's child. While the priests do know how to make a Returned sire a child, following specific steps, by all indications they aren't that interested in sharing or using that procedure, so I don't see why they would change their minds on that, especially since they already have a baby Returned.