Syl being the only Honorspren currently in the Physical Realm

[TJK99]

           I didn't see this discussion anywhere else so I thought for my first topic post I might as well try starting it. (Please inform me if my sight or searching skills are just inept and this has already been started elsewhere, I would be grateful!)

            We hear from Syl in the released Kaladin chapter 9 that she is the only honorspren to have defied the Stormfather and crossed from the Cognitive Realm into the Physical Realm.

 

 

“I am the only honorspren who has come,” Syl said. “I…” She seemed to be stretching to remember. “I was forbidden. I came anyway. To find you.”

 

 

...So important that I left everything, defying the Stormfather, to come. You saw him. In the storm.” -(both quots from Tor.com's released chapters.)

 

My questions about this are:

1. How does Syl know she is the only one to have crossed if -

• She has been in the Physical Realm for about a Roshar year (I think I am not entirely sure of the time between Kaladin's Amaram's army day's and Syl's current statment).
• How would she know if another honorspren had taken the crossing while she was in Shardesmar as we have a quote from Janah from the Shallan's Chapter 3 that the spren have cities so if there are a city wide number of honorspren then how does one notice if a few go missing?

 

Jasnah

Regardless, the Cryptics rule one of the greater cities in Shadesmar. ( Quote from Tor.com's released chapters.)

 

2. What does Syl define as an honorspren? (I know this has been discussed in other Topics but I thought I would include it due to its relevance) - 

• We have WOB that there is much debate among scholars and the spren themselves what an honorspren is and who can be called such. So when Syl say's She is the only honorspren to have crossed which spren is she exactly referring to? Does she mean Spren related to the Windrunner's order or does she mean honorspren in a more genral sense including multiple orders?

Question:

ZAS:

Nohadon mentioned that "All the spren aren’t as discerning as honorspren"

 

 

 

Answer:

Brandon:

So there has been dissension among them about who gets to call themselves honorspren, if that makes sense, and there is some disagreement among scholars about which ones are really, you know "This is what defines an honorspren".

But the spren you are running into are all (something) of either Honor or Cultivation, or some mixture between them. And you can usually tell the ones that are more Honor, and the ones that are more Cultivation. That should be able to be (something). 

Quote From www.theoryland.com's database. (Time of quote and event- 17th of March 2012 - Writing for charity signing

 

          So that's about it this topic is about what you think Syl meant by honorspren and whether she has a firm bases in knowledge for her decleration she is the only honorspren to have crossed over. 

          Oh and also if you think she was only referring to Windrunner spren then does that mean there are still possibilities for other order spren claiming to be honorspren themselves to have crossed before Syl. 

           Finally feel free to badger me about grammar, sentence structure, spelling, poor formatting or anything else I have managed to mess up. Thank you for your time   .

 

Edit: For spelling

Edited January 22, 2014 by TJK99

[Macen]

 

Question:

ZAS:

Nohadon mentioned that "All the spren aren’t as discerning as honorspren"

 

Answer:

Brandon:

So there has been dissension among them about who gets to call themselves honorspren, if that makes sense, and there is some disagreement among scholars about which ones are really, you know "This is what defines an honorspren".

But the spren you are running into are all (something) of either Honor or Cultivation, or some mixture between them. And you can usually tell the ones that are more Honor, and the ones that are more Cultivation. That should be able to be (something). 

Quote From www.theroyland.com's database. (Time of quote and event- 17th of March 2012 - Writing for charity signing

I believe this WoB is meant to send us down a rabbit hole. From what I have seen on the forums and what I believe myself there are honorspren (Syl) and Honorspren (Spren that are more alligned with Honor). The term honorspren has two meanings depending on the context.

[vikorr]

+1 on Macen's thoughts

[marianmi]

I believe this WoB is meant to send us down a rabbit hole. From what I have seen on the forums and what I believe myself there are honorspren (Syl) and Honorspren (Spren that are more alligned with Honor). The term honorspren has two meanings depending on the context.

 

But Syl is a Honorspren - aligned with Honor. I think there are spren more or less aligned with Honor, and Syl is more. So for example Skybreaker spren is also aligned with Honor, but not as much as Syl - so he calls itself an honospren as well.

[chikinllama]

If Syl (pure speculation) is 100% honor (judging that she is honorspren), and assuming marianmi's theory to be correct (that as you go down the 10 orders of KR you get more spren with more Cultivation in them), then we can extrapolate that around order 6 (Lightweavers), the spren will be 100% cultivation. 

 

This is complete speculation of course, but it has interesting symmetry, since to be a Lightweaver, you need a Cryptic, and the Cryptics have a rivalry with the honorspren... hmmm...

[bartbug]

Logically, I think that the cryptics should be having romances with honorspren, not feuds.

Then again, teasing and arguing are some of the surest signs of love .

[shadewolf]

If Syl (pure speculation) is 100% honor (judging that she is honorspren), and assuming marianmi's theory to be correct (that as you go down the 10 orders of KR you get more spren with more Cultivation in them), then we can extrapolate that around order 6 (Lightweavers), the spren will be 100% cultivation. 

 

This is complete speculation of course, but it has interesting symmetry, since to be a Lightweaver, you need a Cryptic, and the Cryptics have a rivalry with the honorspren... hmmm...

 

Actually I want to say that order 10(bondsmiths) is 100% honor, and order 5 is 100% cultivation.

[Windrunner]

As an aside, order ten is not confirmed to be the Bondsmiths.

 

Also, I tend to believe that if any spren is nearing one hundred percent Honor, it would be the Honorspren of the Windrunners, considering the fact that they are called Honorspren. The opposite of them would be the Cryptics (or liespren, and we all know how Syl feels about lies...) which are engaged in political conflict with the Honorspren, which would make sense considering the fact that if they are mostly Cultivation they would be on the opposite side of the Honor:Cultivation ratio.

[The Count]

Agree with Macen here too...

 

I would guess that:

 

All Honorspren (aka Syl) are Honor-spren (aligned with honor)

 

But not all Honor-spren are Honorspren...

Edited January 23, 2014 by The Count

[marianmi]

Things could be more complicated ...

Like honorspren (windrunners - 1) <-> liespren (lightweavers - 6) and cultivationspren (edgedancer - 4) <-> destruction?spren (stonewardens - 9).

[skaa]

Actually I want to say that order 10(bondsmiths) is 100% honor, and order 5 is 100% cultivation.

 

That's what I'd like to believe as well. Order 5's Essence is Pulp, and it's symbolized by what looks like an image of a plant; the whole thing just screams "Cultivation" to me. The warrior-like look of Order 10's symbol sort of suggests Honor... it is kind of a weak link, yes, but then there is also the fact that Order 10 and Order 5 are somewhat separated from the rest of the Orders on the Double-Eye chart, making those two look important, somehow.

 

Still, there is more evidence for the Order 1 = 100% Honor and Order 6 = 100% Cultivation theory in the actual text we have right now (for the simple reason that we've yet to see Orders 10 and 5 members):

• Jezrien, Herald of the Windrunners, is the leader of the Heralds and so therefore (presumably) closest to Honor.
• "Stormfather's spren" (what I now call spren of Syl's type) grant the power to "bind things", which seems to be Honor's thing.
• Lightweavers (who are on the opposite side of the chart from the Windrunners) have Cryptics, who we know have some sort of rivalry with honorspren, so they're probably aligned to Cultivation.
• Cryptics seem to have a prominent place in Shadesmar, suggesting that they're of a "purer" breed and therefore closer to a Shard's Intent (in this case, Cultivation's).

It all fits, except for the unfortunate fact that Windrunners are on the top right of the chart and Lightweavers on the bottom left, instead of the more prominent middle (where Orders 5 and 10 reside).

 

My only hope is that Bondsmiths are actually Order 10. Their spren will have to "bind" something as well (to justify the Order name), so they should also have a claim to the title of "honorspren".

 

Or (if Order 10 is some other Order) maybe... *gasp*... maybe there are no 100% Honor spren left, because they all died along with Tanavast!    (Okay, that's the worst case scenario, since that would mean Order 10 would not be revived. )

Edited January 23, 2014 by skaa

[Macen]

Just to throw a wrench in the cogs here. What is there was a 3rd entity (Adonalsium) that takes up part of the chart. I know this is breaking out of the mold somewhat, but what if Honor = 1, cultivation = 4 and Adonalsium = 6/7. I base this on the fact that there were already spren before Honor and Cultivation arrived. 

Just a thought.

[marianmi]

Just to throw a wrench in the cogs here. What is there was a 3rd entity (Adonalsium) that takes up part of the chart. I know this is breaking out of the mold somewhat, but what if Honor = 1, cultivation = 4 and Adonalsium = 6/7. I base this on the fact that there were already spren before Honor and Cultivation arrived. 

Just a thought.

 

You mean something like this? http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/5197-jezrien-shards-and-the-identity-of-the-broken-one/?view=findpost&p=88678

[Macen]

Exactly:
 

 

 

I already proposed this a while ago, so I am repeating myself: What if "3 of the 16 ruled" does not include Odium? What if Odium was on Braize, so there would be Honor, Cultivation + another shard ? My theory in relation to this was that the corners of the surgebinding shard contains "pure" splinter-spren from each shard - Syl honorspren, Wyndle cultivationspren, Cryptics adonalsiumspren, and Stormwarden-spren from the 3rd shard.

 

"Now the broken one rules" - I think the broken one is Adonalsium. Honorspren, cultivationspren and stormspren used to rule Shadesmar, but now Cryptics rule.

 

Damnit Mirainmi, I just posted this same type of idea in another thread then came over here and saw you had already posted it...    

+1 upvote

 

[hoser]

Great questions! Upvote!

           I ...

            We hear from Syl in the released Kaladin chapter 9 that she is the only honorspren to have defied the Stormfather and crossed from the Cognitive Realm into the Physical Realm.

 

My questions about this are:

1. How does Syl know she is the only one to have crossed if -

• She has been in the Physical Realm for about a Roshar year (I think I am not entirely sure of the time between Kaladin's Amaram's army day's and Syl's current statment).
• How would she know if another honorspren had taken the crossing while she was in Shardesmar as we have a quote from Janah from the Shallan's Chapter 3 that the spren have cities so if there are a city wide number of honorspren then how does one notice if a few go missing?

 

2. What does Syl define as an honorspren? (I know this has been discussed in other Topics but I thought I would include it due to its relevance) - 

• We have WOB that there is much debate among scholars and the spren themselves what an honorspren is and who can be called such. So when Syl say's She is the only honorspren to have crossed which spren is she exactly referring to? Does she mean Spren related to the Windrunner's order or does she mean honorspren in a more genral sense including multiple orders?

 

          So that's about it this topic is about what you think Syl meant by honorspren and whether she has a firm bases in knowledge for her decleration she is the only honorspren to have crossed over. 

          Oh and also if you think she was only referring to Windrunner spren then does that mean there are still possibilities for other order spren claiming to be honorspren themselves to have crossed before Syl.

As for 1., I have been assuming that her information is just old and she might be wrong.  There is another possibility that may be being hinted at in that passage. 

Look at the following information about Syl changing just before she gives the information, it seems significant to me.

{cracked speculation}Is she accessing current information somehow?{/cracked speculation} 

{even more cracked speculation}Is she getting information from Cultivation?{/even more cracked speculation}

Syl landed on the side of the pool, looking like a woman standing on an ocean’s shore. Kaladin frowned, leaning down to inspect her more closely. She seemed… different. Had her face changed shape?

“There are others like you,” Syl whispered. “I do not know them, but I know that other spren are trying, in their own way, to reclaim what was lost.”

She looked to him, and her face now had its familiar form. The fleeting change had been so subtle, Kaladin wasn’t sure if he’d imagined it.

“I am the only honorspren who has come,” Syl said. “I…” She seemed to be stretching to remember. “I was forbidden. I came anyway. To find you.”

 

That's what I'd like to believe as well. Order 5's Essence is Pulp, and it's symbolized by what looks like an image of a plant; the whole thing just screams "Cultivation" to me. The warrior-like look of Order 10's symbol sort of suggests Honor... it is kind of a weak link, yes, but then there is also the fact that Order 10 and Order 5 are somewhat separated from the rest of the Orders on the Double-Eye chart, making those two look important, somehow.

 

Still, there is more evidence for the Order 1 = 100% Honor and Order 6 = 100% Cultivation theory in the actual text we have right now (for the simple reason that we've yet to see Orders 10 and 5 members):

• Jezrien, Herald of the Windrunners, is the leader of the Heralds and so therefore (presumably) closest to Honor.
• "Stormfather's spren" (what I now call spren of Syl's type) grant the power to "bind things", which seems to be Honor's thing.
• Lightweavers (who are on the opposite side of the chart from the Windrunners) have Cryptics, who we know have some sort of rivalry with honorspren, so they're probably aligned to Cultivation.
• Cryptics seem to have a prominent place in Shadesmar, suggesting that they're of a "purer" breed and therefore closer to a Shard's Intent (in this case, Cultivation's).

It all fits, except for the unfortunate fact that Windrunners are on the top right of the chart and Lightweavers on the bottom left, instead of the more prominent middle (where Orders 5 and 10 reside).

 

My only hope is that Bondsmiths are actually Order 10. Their spren will have to "bind" something as well (to justify the Order name), so they should also have a claim to the title of "honorspren".

When I want to fit the data to the conclusion, I can make these things go any which way .

For example:

• If surgebinding is an H+C magic system, the leadership should not be associated with the "pure" spren of either type. 
• The surgebinders of order 10 should also be able to bind things with the pressure surge
• Lightweaving could be aligned more closely with cultivation even if the "purest" cultivationspren are order 5.
• Cryptics could have their special status in Shadesmar due to their subtlety, independance and contrast with the "obvious" leadership of the Windrunner honorspren. 

I know nothing that everybody doesn't know, so please don't take this as a serious argument for order 10 as the purest honorspren.   I am sure that we have surprises galore in store.

[Macen]

I like 1-5-7/8 as different shard associations. If that's the case the only logical option would be Adonalsium.

The other option could be Stormfaterh/Nightwatcher being Adonalsium spren from before and having some influence over the other spren. This would be something along the lines of Honor = Pressure, Nightwatcher = Friction, Cultivation = Growth, Stormfather = Unknown. This would associate the different shard with more of a power, rather than a order.

*NOTE* this is an outline for a theory, without much thought put into it. I do like the premise though.