Thoughts on Vasher in Roshar

[ScarletSabre he/him]

Do we have any theories on how strong Vasher is on Roshar? We know that he's still suppressing his Divine Breath, and that he's at least hacked the magic systems enough to survive on Stormlight/raw Investiture rather than Breaths.

My thoughts are as follows;

What effect would the red lightning (Voidlight? o3o) have on him with regards to living?

How does his body differentiate between using up his Stormlight stockpile and his Breath stockpile? I assume he still has a stockpile of Breath for the Weeping, or some stored in clothes etc like emergency rations.

When he absorbs Stormlight, does he glow like Kaladin would, or can he suppress it like Shallan does with her Lightweaving?

Since we have WOB that he's been on Roshar before the events of WOK, has he met any of the Heralds? He certainly knows the stances of swordsmanship well... did he have a hand in creating them?

And finally... how strong is Vasher? We know it's possible to fuel a Returned with Stormlight, so it stands to reason it can fuel Awakening too... but would the Stormlight run out of the Awakened object at the natural rate of disappation of a Lashing or being infused in a sphere? What about a Stormlight fuelled Lifeless? Would it be able to function for more than a few minutes?

I'm just wondering if during a Highstorm, after seeing a Thunderclast and figuring out the visualisation, Vasher could make one of his own with Stormlight-fueled Awakening.  Or an army of Stormlight Lifeless that would be able to fight on for the duration of the storm. Of course the Thunderclast would require the Heightening that allows for bringing rock and metal to life... but we don't yet know the rate of conversion for Breath and Stormlight. Does one Broam equal one Nathalian Breath? Does one Highstorm equal enough Breath to reach the Fourth Heightening?

We don't see in the narrative anyone notice pockets of bright colour or changes in it around Zahel, so he doesn't have much Breath on him when he meets Kaladin, enough to notice at least. Though Kaladin would have other things on his mind, and unless the effect was striking enough to make a Darkeyes' eyes seem bright while being close to Zahel I doubt the Alethi would notice anyway. I wonder if Stormlight Heightenings would have the same kind of effect as Biochroma with the hack?

Anyways, what do you all think? Thoughts? ^-^ Condemnations for stuff that's already been discussed/answered in another thread?

[nervousnerd he/him]

I think more interesting is whether he can retain stormlight perfectly. From what I remember, Breath does not slowly leak out of a person. If he can retain stormlight then it is a fairly readily available source to make him super powerful.

[Yata he/him]

I think Vasher is in the same situation of Shallan with her Illusion.
His body needs Investiture and absorb a little of the Investiture who would leak out. Probably if He drawn a bigger amount of Investiture. His body will began to glow.
If he would be able to absord the red lightning, probably for him it will be just like stormlight nothing more and nothing less.
We know that Vasher has not figurate yet how to perform Awakening with Stormlight and I think he will never find a decent way.


To me Vasher may awaken things or lifeless or whatever he want with Stormlight, just the Stormlight is not sticky as Breath and would not last on anything. Maybe just inside Gemsones because they may keep Stormlight....except that we know Gemstones mess with Stormlight infusion and therefore they may simply store the Stormlight without become awakened

[ScarletSabre he/him]

4 minutes ago, Yata said:

To me Vasher may awaken things or lifeless or whatever he want with Stormlight, just the Stormlight is not sticky as Breath and would not last on anything. Maybe just inside Gemsones because they may keep Stormlight....except that we know Gemstones mess with Stormlight infusion and therefore they may simply store the Stormlight without become awakened

That's an interesting thought. We know different types of Investiture can interfere/interact with one another. Shardplate interferes with Lashings, Leechers can drain what's ostensibly a Shade-gun.

What would happen if you stored Breath in a Dun sphere? Would it glow as though infused with Stormlight? Would it stop Stormlight being infused into it in the next Highstorm?

[Jondesu he/him]

One note: Brandon has stated that Vasher/Zahel hasn't been able to figure out using Stormlight to Awaken. He left open the possibility that it could be done, but Vasher doesn't know how.

jW

[goody153]

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Do we have any theories on how strong Vasher is on Roshar? 

I take Stormlight Archives fighters the strongest out of all cosmere. Of course with the exception of Fullborn or Inquisitors who can compound those people are just flat out broken. So i suspect Vasher is weaker than your standard fighter-radiant., it also kinda depends how much a heightening can a certain amount of standard intake of stormlight can  give or if ever it can give anything at all.

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What effect would the red lightning (Voidlight? o3o) have on him with regards to living?

We don't know how lax Odium is when it comes to people using his investure. For sure apparently the shards of roshar are (the question is that if odium is included ) from a WoB.

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How does his body differentiate between using up his Stormlight stockpile and his Breath stockpile? I assume he still has a stockpile of Breath for the Weeping, or some stored in clothes etc like emergency rations.

I think this was discussed before that he has a stock.

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When he absorbs Stormlight, does he glow like Kaladin would, or can he suppress it like Shallan does with her Lightweaving?

I suspect no. Maybe he could do the "my breath to yours" trick when it comes to stormlight ? 

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Since we have WOB that he's been on Roshar before the events of WOK, has he met any of the Heralds? He certainly knows the stances of swordsmanship well... did he have a hand in creating them

According to the cosmere timeline, Vasher shouldn't be that too long in Roshar. And the unlimited desolation has been happening like for like 6k years(not sure but it's been happening too damnation long) and i think those swordmanship style are just passed down generation by generation from Radiant/Herald fighting style.(Remember that in one of Dalinar's visions that one of the radiants noted him as he fights like a radiant which probably means the fighting style apart from his prowness in combat).

I'm not too sure about the stormlight to awakening abilities too. I think stormlight just funds his "needs breath to live" not the actual abilities he gained from Shard Endowment.

[ScarletSabre he/him]

13 minutes ago, goody153 said:

According to the cosmere timeline, Vasher shouldn't be that too long in Roshar. And the unlimited desolation has been happening like for like 6k years(not sure but it's been happening too damnation long) and i think those swordmanship style are just passed down generation by generation from Radiant/Herald fighting style.(Remember that in one of Dalinar's visions that one of the radiants noted him as he fights like a radiant which probably means the fighting style apart from his prowness in combat).

I'm not too sure about the stormlight to awakening abilities too. I think stormlight just funds his "needs breath to live" not the actual abilities he gained from Shard Endowment.

If I recall correctly from the vision, the Radiant says to Dalinar, "Your stances are unfamiliar to me. But they have the air of a practiced warrior."

Which would imply that the stances used by the Shardbearers now are different or evolved from those of the original Heralds/Radiants. Whiiiiiich kinda destroys my wondering if Vasher had a hand in shaping the original ones xD

As for Vasher not being able to Awaken with Stormlight, I'm sure he'll figure it out before the end of the series. This IS the guy who saw Shardblades and figured out how to make one from a completely different form of Investiture, and made one many times more powerful and dangerous than the weapons which are worth kingdoms. And he's already hacked the magic system enough to survive on Stormlight after all, that's a big first step, I'd imagine.

[nervousnerd he/him]

5 minutes ago, Rawrbert said:

This IS the guy who saw Shardblades and figured out how to make one from a completely different form of Investiture, and made one many times more powerful and dangerous than the weapons which are worth kingdoms. And he's already hacked the magic system enough to survive on Stormlight after all, that's a big first step, I'd imagine.

Forgive my possibly confused timelines but so a couple of hundred years before WoK, Vasher saw a Shardblade and used it as a basis for Nightblood. I assume this would be a living spren shardblade in order for that to work, no? There were no living shardblades on Roshar (that we know of anyway, 9/10) since the Recreance. Did a Radiant visit Nalthis? That could be an interesting way for Vasher to have learned about worldhopping.

[Jondesu he/him]

46 minutes ago, Rawrbert said:

As for Vasher not being able to Awaken with Stormlight, I'm sure he'll figure it out before the end of the series. This IS the guy who saw Shardblades and figured out how to make one from a completely different form of Investiture, and made one many times more powerful and dangerous than the weapons which are worth kingdoms. And he's already hacked the magic system enough to survive on Stormlight after all, that's a big first step, I'd imagine.

Considering Brandon wants SA to stand on its own, we're unlikely to see Vasher Awaken anything with Stormlight. We might get some tiny reference to indicate he did, but it won't be important and likely not on-screen. He's just a nice Easter Egg, but probably won't even be that important to the overall story, and certainly not with any obvious benefits to being Returned, or Awakening, since non-Cosmere-Aware readers wouldn't understand.

jW

[Argel he/him]

Could Vasher have taught the new stances though? 

I'm pretty sure there is a WoB that Vasher had been to Roshar before creating Nightblood.

I agree -- I doubt we will see any major awakening type stuff. On the other hand, Zahel could play some moderate role as long as it avoids delving to deeply into his past. 

Vasher is such a good swordsman that it's hard to gauge how someone in theory more powerful than him would actually do against him. We are also not sure how many breaths he has, beyond that he has life sense. 

I also wonder if Brandon may be slightly more lax about Warbreaker cross-overs given the stronger connection it has to the original TWoK. 

[+Lewis Nethur He/Him]

Unfortunately...last I heard (maybe from one of the newsletters or annotations?), sequels for Warbreaker are still in the early planning stages, ie: the specific mechanics for how Awakening functions as a magic system, who will live, who will die, and how the conflict hinted at at the end of Warbreaker will ultimately be resolved are still sort of up in the air.  Though it breaks my heart to say it (Vasher is my favorite character in the Cosmere), I think the community should be emotionally prepared for a scenario in which Vasher ultimately ends up with very little time on screen in the next 3 Stormlight Archive novels...His back story hasn't been written yet, the way his Investiture functions hasn't been decided, and explaining how/why he got to Roshar in-book would leave many casual readers and first-time Cosmere readers either bored or hopelessly confused.  @Argel is right though, he could still serve as a supporting character/mentor like Hoid, showing up and helping out while deftly avoiding any deeper exploration.  Showing off Vasher's awesome zombie-army making abilities, while explaining that he's the only one on Roshar who can make them, and also explaining that hes a space traveling, investiture-vamping, biologically-immortal undead alien from another planet could be a huge turn-off for new fans, and, even if done expertly and in a way that didn't reveal too much or derail the series, would still probably feel like an unexplained and weird loose end.  I think of if as similar to if one of the X-men showed up in Game of Thrones and started obliterating White Walkers.  It could be cool, it could be a fun read, and, if done absolutely perfectly by a creative genius, it might not leave fans upset, confused, or feeling insulted.  But it would still be super weird and make the series less accessible.

I believe Sanderson still maintains a friendly agreement with publishers to keep Cosmere references and cross-over material away from main plot lines and arcs.  They're concerned with optimizing, cultivating, and assisting with the growth of his fan-base and career in general in the long run; obscurity is the bane of writers, and there are a lot of people who, despite being avid readers and fantasy fans, don't want to make a commitment as big as reading the whole Cosmere epic, and also don't want to feel like they only read part of a story.

Trust me, no one wants me to be wrong more than I do.  I'd love to see Vasher poke his head outside during a highstorm and go crazy awakening boulders and building a massive arsenal of Nightbloods to take back home with him...

[PantsForSquares he/him]

7 minutes ago, hwiles said:

I'd love to see Vasher poke his head outside during a highstorm and go crazy awakening boulders and building a massive arsenal of Nightbloods to take back home with him...

Vasher is actually surprisingly restrained, when it comes to using Investiture. Remember that he gave up an immense stockpile of Breaths, killed Shashara to prevent a spread of the knowledge behind Awakened steel, and has made a point of not using his Returned form. If there ever was any Cosmere character I'd expect to not do much on another planet, it would certainly be Vasher. He could let loose, sure, but it just isn't in his character.

Also, Vasher traveled to Roshar 300 years or so before the time of Warbreaker, so when he first saw a Shardblade, it would have been after the Heirocracy, at the very latest. We'd need more chronological information, though.

[+Lewis Nethur He/Him]

I wasn't aware it had been confirmed that Vasher went to Roshar before making Nightblood, that's pretty wild...Heck, maybe Roshar is where he gathered the massive stockpile of Investiture needed to make Nightblood.  It's sorta bugged me how cavalier they were about burning through Breath, which functions at least partially as a person's soul on their planet, during their experiments making Nightblood when they weren't really sure what the result would be.  If they didn't have to go through the process of gathering the Breath from people, I could see them being tremendously more casual with how they spent it.  Interesting implications...

[Jondesu he/him]

I'm fairly sure it wasn't 100% confirmed that Vasher went to Roshar, just that he had seen a Shardblade and was trying to make something like it.

jW

[Argel he/him]

Actually, it was confirmed during the JordanCon RAFOlympics 2016:

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[1:22:43]

Q: So is Vasher - [lady?] who was part of the process creating Nightblood a worldhopper, then?

A: Vasher had been to Roshar before he created Nightblood, yeah.

 

Source: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1J43km7wrrZnOuM2WJe2DpBsk_C0E6yLJ8bDxqfen-P4/view

Edited September 3, 2016 by Argel

[goody153]

I wonder how did Vasher end up in Roshar before and what  is he doing there. I wonder if he knew the existence of the shards or at least does he know the existence of his god Endowment.

[nervousnerd he/him]

On September 2, 2016 at 3:46 PM, PantsForSquares said:

Vasher is actually surprisingly restrained, when it comes to using Investiture. Remember that he gave up an immense stockpile of Breaths, killed Shashara to prevent a spread of the knowledge behind Awakened steel, and has made a point of not using his Returned form. If there ever was any Cosmere character I'd expect to not do much on another planet, it would certainly be Vasher. He could let loose, sure, but it just isn't in his character.

Also, Vasher traveled to Roshar 300 years or so before the time of Warbreaker, so when he first saw a Shardblade, it would have been after the Heirocracy, at the very latest. We'd need more chronological information, though.

Yeah. If you are willing to

Spoiler

kill your wife

to prevent causing untold death, you probably wouldn't be one to throw around knowledge and use power unnecessarily.

Ok. After the Heirocracy. That was what was confusing me. Timelines are hard.

Would seeing a dead shardblade be enough though? I suppose technically if he knew spren were shardblades it might be enough. Would Nightblood be sentient if he were based on non-sentient life? I had always assumed he made the sword become an idea like a spren.

[Argel he/him]

Brandon has even described Nightblood as a robot spren.  Though when summoning a dead shardblade, the spren is brought back to life for a brief moment. That could have been enough to inspire Vasher. 

 

[Darkness Ascendant he/him]

From what I know, the best way for Vasher to Awaken would be to craft a "golem" using crystal. He can then awaken the Crystal Golem using either Breath or Stormlight

[Spoolofwhool]

2 hours ago, Darkness Ascendant said:

From what I know, the best way for Vasher to Awaken would be to craft a "golem" using crystal. He can then awaken the Crystal Golem using either Breath or Stormlight

He would need enough breath to achieve ninth heightening so he can awaken inorganic materials. He probably doesn't have that many. In any case, awakening using stormlight seems like a bad idea since it would leak out over time.

[Darkness Ascendant he/him]

1 hour ago, Spoolofwhool said:

He would need enough breath to achieve ninth heightening so he can awaken inorganic materials. He probably doesn't have that many. In any case, awakening using stormlight seems like a bad idea since it would leak out over time.

That's why he would use crystal, since gems are all mineral crystals. So the stormlight doesn't leak, and it holds.

[Spoolofwhool]

1 hour ago, Darkness Ascendant said:

That's why he would use crystal, since gems are all mineral crystals. So the stormlight doesn't leak, and it holds.

Gems leak stormlight as well, they just hold it better. By nature, stormlight leaks. It's impossible to hold stormlight indefinitely. That's why spheres do run dry and need to be recharged in highstorms, why the weepings are so serious since few spheres are big enough to hold stormlight to last the whole time. WoB on the matter.

Edited September 4, 2016 by Spoolofwhool

[Darkness Ascendant he/him]

14 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Gems leak stormlight as well, they just hold it better. By nature, stormlight leaks. It's impossible to hold stormlight indefinitely. WoB in the matter.

That doesn't make too much of a difference. A)They leak alot slower b ) every highstorm they would get infused again. The Weepings would be the only problem, and even then, it would depend on the amount of crystal used. Stormlight in this case would be no diffirent for ichor alcohol as far as Lifeless are concerned

[Yata he/him]

1 hour ago, Darkness Ascendant said:

That doesn't make too much of a difference. A)They leak alot slower b ) every highstorm they would get infused again. The Weepings would be the only problem, and even then, it would depend on the amount of crystal used. Stormlight in this case would be no diffirent for ichor alcohol as far as Lifeless are concerned

just because the next hightstorm would refill the gems doesn't mean that the Awakening will be refreshed.

Probably in this hypotetical case, we will find an Awakened object made of gemstones who posses a short lifespan (until the Awakener's stormlight last) and some other Stormlight recived by every highstorm...as two different stocks.

It's the same thing of storing breath into an Awakened object...the new stored Breath don't stack with the one who made the prot-mind of the Awakened Object.

[Jondesu he/him]

I think the biggest flaw in Awakening with Stormlight is that Stormlight doesn't carry a piece of your Cognitive, or its own Cognitive aspect, like Breath seems to. There's no inherent way to send a Command to an Awakened object with it, so there would need to be more of a hack involved simply to do that, beyond the fact that it's not sticky and leaks out.

jW